Why anti-Americanism continues to thrive in Pakistan

[VCheng]

Yeah kind of we never worked towards becoming a self reliant. Plus the geo political location of pakistan is also a factor.

Exactly. As long as one is dependent of foreign aid, they all will come with strings of one kind o another attached. It is impossible to be independent while being dependent on others' money, simply put.

 

[villageidiot]

Ask any regular american on the street, Where and what is pakistan, 80% of the people don’t even know where it is. All they know is its a desert country in the middle east. So pakistan has no impact on a common american. Not relevant.

That's true, but irrelavant. The fact that most americans believe Pakistan is a arab, desert country in the middle east has no bearing on the consequences of US foriegn policy (among other factors)

Anti america Rhetoric in Pakistan exists bc of the radicalization of masses done by the religious clerics and army(isi) as they needed people as cannon fodder for Soviet invasion of afghanistan.
This radicalization was embedded in generations to come to wont go away that easily

There are a multitude of factors. Would you say that the iraqis hate USA because religious clerics's sermons or because the US has sent them back a century with it's WMD hunting hobby.

Similarly, Soviet war argument is gross oversimplification. There is resentment at least as back as '65 when US embargoes us. They also pressured Ayub khan in 62 when PRC was screwing over india. (Not saying Ayub khan would've have attacked if not for the US.)

And also trust me if i offer US citizenship to anyone of you here or in pakistan in general, will take it in a heartbeat, so this anti americism is just some hypocritical bs.

One can have a decent argument about anti-americans but I don't get this "Don't come to america if you don't like it".
It's so ridiculous yet It's used by many a sensible people on this forum.

Most people people who dislike USA dislike their foreign policy, not the country or the fact that it exists. Unless, you are some religious nutjob who hates the USA for being Big Satan, then that argument is valid.

What about the US citizens who criticized US foreign policy day in day out? Remember Vietnam?
By this principle, they don't deserve to live in the USA because they hate it?

 

[Abid123]

It is impossible to be independent while being dependent on others' money, simply put.

Is there anyone on this forum disputing that?

 

[villageidiot]

@Rusty2 is not wrong in his assessment. The Mullah brigade has an outsized influence in manipulating people and playing on their sensitivities to derail any progress. When Imran Khan started his take over he established a team of approximately 21 economists from top schools and the business world. Well, one of them ended up being an Ahmadiyya follower, and all hell broke loose. The Ministry of Religion and others forced IK to kick him out. Once this happened, the other individuals resigned as they didn't follow this sort of jahiliyyah logic. That Ahmadiyaa was one of the youngest individuals in the world to get a Ph.D. in Economics from Yale before the age of 35 and hold a chair in the school of business (this is a massive deal with you having a chair in academia; because you bring in money through consulting work, R&D, etc.).

These same Mullahs destroyed trees planted in various areas of Pakistan, which would better the environment of Pakistan. In all this, they brainwash little kids and use them as foot soldiers.

Do not forget what Dr. Israr said, "scholars during our time would be the worst of the worst walking this earth." He used strong words to describe them almost as fitna on this earth.

Sir, you won't find a bigger mullah-hater than me. I've been doing it since I was in middle school, believe you me. Mullahs kicked out atif mian but was it mullahs who imposed ishaq dar on us. Because Dar arguably has had a much much bigger effect on this country than any genie atif mian was going to summon and take this country to greatness.

And no, I am not saying it's the generals' fault, in case anyone is thinking that.

 

[VCheng]

Is there anyone on this forum disputing that?

LOL. All those on PDF who think Pakistan should be able to do whatever it likes while living on other people's money and complaining of US and other countries' influence inside Pakistan, for example?

 

[villageidiot]

Is there anyone on this forum disputing that?

Don't mind ol' @VCheng , Long out of genuine ideas, appetite for constructive engagement, and possibly the will to live, he is predisposed to stating the obvious and repeating himself.

 

[VCheng]

Don't mind ol' @VCheng , Long out of genuine ideas, appetite for constructive engagement, and possibly the will to live, he is predisposed to stating the obvious and repeating himself.

Right. That must be why you ran away from those other threads after running out of any coherent arguments.

 

[villageidiot]

Right. That must be why you ran away from those other threads after running out of any coherent arguments.

I would let you bask in the glory of vanquishing me and making me run away from the conversation but it's not healthy so instead I want to help you. I'll let you into a little secret. It's called having a life.

See that? That's upwards of 300 notifications that I haven't had the time to check. Now, many of those are probably your replies and given your inclination to repeat yourself, those probably didn't involve much thinking. Which is why, you'll forgive me for being blunt, it's a bit inconvenient for me to spend precious time replying, only to hear the same thing over and over again, albeit sometimes with some effort put in to word it differently.

So, I will keep letting you have these victories because a man only has so much free time.

Besides, there's always other people here you can defeat and feel good about yourself.

Cheers.

 

[COOKie LOOkie....]

That's true, but irrelavant. The fact that most americans believe Pakistan is a arab, desert country in the middle east has no bearing on the consequences of US foriegn policy (among other factors)


There are a multitude of factors. Would you say that the iraqis hate USA because religious clerics's sermons or because the US has sent them back a century with it's WMD hunting hobby.

Similarly, Soviet war argument is gross oversimplification. There is resentment at least as back as '65 when US embargoes us. They also pressured Ayub khan in 62 when PRC was screwing over india. (Not saying Ayub khan would've have attacked if not for the US.)


One can have a decent argument about anti-americans but I don't get this "Don't come to america if you don't like it".
It's so ridiculous yet It's used by many a sensible people on this forum.

Most people people who dislike USA dislike their foreign policy, not the country or the fact that it exists. Unless, you are some religious nutjob who hates the USA for being Big Satan, then that argument is valid.

What about the US citizens who criticized US foreign policy day in day out? Remember Vietnam?
By this principle, they don't deserve to live in the USA because they hate it?

You raised some valid points i will give you that.
I was merely raising the issue of what a common american knows of Pakistan. Foreign policy is not handled by common folks so yeah.

What happened in iraq is totally different compared to pakistan, not gonna talk about that. I am against what US did there. Iraqis have a valid reason.

There was little to no resentment in the general public of Pakistan against US, they liked the US the way pakistani people like china now.
All i am saying anti-Americanism took off after the radicalization of the public. its was significant before soviet era.

Anyone who wishes to visit US is most welcomed, I am just stating the fact that some people go batsh!t crazy with their anti americanism but if offered citizenship, they show their hypocritical stance, thats all.

No country is perfect and You have every right to criticize foreign policy of any country be a citizen or not. US has f ‘ ed up alot in the past no one is perfect. I never said dont come to US if u dont like us. i apologize if it seems like thats was my message.

 

[Sayfullah]

A critical mind looks at the evidence, not through a dogmatic and unflexing ideology.
We have evidence that being open to ideas and flexibl in how you approach thing can lead to positive outcomes. Examples include the Islamic Golden age, European renascence, East Asian tigers, etc.
Do we have evidence that chopping off people's hands improve GDP? If you have such evidence, I would love to hear it.

I never said chopping hands off improve GDP. What I said is the golden age of Islam you refer to which didn’t have “conservative Islam”, those empires followed Shariah and would have punishments like chopping off hands of thieves. Since according to you there was no “conservative islam” back then so Pakistan should implement Shariah law because by your logic “conservative islam” is why we are suffering.

No it wasn't

So you’re saying Shariah wasn’t implemented by Rashidun’s, Umayyad’s, Abbasid’s, Seljuk’s etc?

People still drank, fornicated, lied and more. It is a fairy tale that conservatives tell that somehow our ancestors were angels and we are corrupt. We have literature, archeology and biology that PRVOES that humans were always humans and always did human things including people during the golden age of Islam.

People always sinned and always will sin. But what you’re trying to say is Muslim states during the golden age of Islam didn’t have laws based on Shariah to stop some of these crimes? So are we rejecting the Islamic punishment for fortification which was enforced by every Islamic state at that time and we have ample evidence from the Salaf of them carrying out the punishment. Ofc people can do these crimes in secret and it is possible they can never be exposed.

Yes, Muslims totally realized it. That is why there has never in the history of Islam been a mosque bombing or a school bombing or mullahs shooting each other, gangster style.

Cuz back then they took a hardline against khawarijites and fought them ideologically. Today we can’t even fight modern day khawarij ideologically like the previous successful Muslim empires did because people want secularism in the country instead which strengthens khawarij.
Secular states had been bombing mosques and schools even till this day they do. We oppose them ideologically and physically but then our own wannabe whites call us “terrorists”.

What a silly question.

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Even OBL was given an Islamic burial (at sea).

That doesn’t answer my question. Read my question again. Understand what I’m asking. If you don’t understand try to find out what I mean. Then come at me with an answer.

As I explained before, secularism means separation of religion and state, not negation of religion. For example, in U.S. our military employs chaplains of all major religions and provides religious services, including funerals.

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What about on the battlefield?
If secularism still means employing chaplains and funding places of worship, since it isn’t to negate religion, isn’t Pakistan already secular? Only things that aren’t secular about Pakistan is the “Islamic” in its name. But it’s only Islamic in the name.
What’s your recommendations on what Pakistan should do to become more secular? What’s you vision of a secular Pakistan?

 

[Rusty2]

I never said chopping hands off improve GDP. What I said is the golden age of Islam you refer to which didn’t have “conservative Islam”, those empires followed Shariah and would have punishments like chopping off hands of thieves. Since according to you there was no “conservative islam” back then so Pakistan should implement Shariah law because by your logic “conservative islam” is why we are suffering.

So you’re saying Shariah wasn’t implemented by Rashidun’s, Umayyad’s, Abbasid’s, Seljuk’s etc?

People always sinned and always will sin. But what you’re trying to say is Muslim states during the golden age of Islam didn’t have laws based on Shariah to stop some of these crimes? So are we rejecting the Islamic punishment for fortification which was enforced by every Islamic state at that time and we have ample evidence from the Salaf of them carrying out the punishment. Ofc people can do these crimes in secret and it is possible they can never be exposed.

Cuz back then they took a hardline against khawarijites and fought them ideologically. Today we can’t even fight modern day khawarij ideologically like the previous successful Muslim empires did because people want secularism in the country instead which strengthens khawarij.
Secular states had been bombing mosques and schools even till this day they do. We oppose them ideologically and physically but then our own wannabe whites call us “terrorists”.




What about on the battlefield?
If secularism still means employing chaplai
That doesn’t answer my question. Read my question again. Understand what I’m asking. If you don’t understand try to find out what I mean. Then come at me with an answer.


ns and funding places of worship, since it isn’t to negate religion, isn’t Pakistan already secular? Only things that aren’t secular about Pakistan is the “Islamic” in its name. But it’s only Islamic in the name.
What’s your recommendations on what Pakistan should do to become more secular? What’s you vision of a secular Pakistan?

Conservatism just means to want things to not change. It has nothing to do with chopping people's hand off or not.
Does Sharia allow for monarchies? no? then how can Rashids, Umayids, etc implement a system that doesn't allow for their very existence. It's like saying North Korea is democratic since they allow their citizens to fore for Kim Jong Un. Sure they "Voted" but by definition you can't be a democracy if you are a dictatorship.

But lets pretend they were pure Sharia based societies. Does Sharia prohibit acquiring knowledge? No? then it is a non issue in this discussion. Conservatives Muslims Absolutely want to prohibit the acquisition of (certain) knowledge. So brining up Sharia is pointless.

Cuz back then they took a hardline against khawarijites and fought them ideologically. Today we can’t even fight modern day khawarij ideologically like the previous successful Muslim empires did because people want secularism in the country instead which strengthens khawarij.

How did that turn out? There must be no sects in Islam now right?.... right?

Secular states had been bombing mosques and schools even till this day they do. We oppose them ideologically and physically but then our own wannabe whites call us “terrorists”.

Two things,
1. Lets compare the numbers of mosques blown up by the US/it's allies vs mosques blown up by "mujahedeens" It's not even a comparison
2. When the secular states do bomb mosques, it is not due to them being sunni, shia, ahmedi, etc.
While mujahedeens do target mosques for being the "wrong" type of Muslim.

You are asking if a secular state will bury their religious troops in a religious way. I provided examples of them doing so. Is this not what you are saying?

 

[Sayfullah]

Conservatism just means to want things to not change.

By that meaning, Islam is conservative and will always be conservative. Islam cannot be changed. Any innovation in religion leads to deviation. Islam was already perfected to us.

It has nothing to do with chopping people's hand off or not.

That’s the shariah punishment for theft.

Does Sharia allow for monarchies? no? then how can Rashids

Rashidun Caliphate wasn’t a monarchy. If you think that, sorry we cannot debate on this topic anymore. This is factually incorrect.

It's like saying North Korea is democratic since they allow their citizens to fore for Kim Jong Un. Sure they "Voted" but by definition you can't be a democracy if you are a dictatorship.

So the previous caliphates were not good? But weren’t they also golden age of Islam where you your self said had no “conservative Islam”?
If these caliphates were not good doesn’t it negate your argument that conservatism or “conservative Islam” is the reason for our downfall? Because as far as I know these were the golden age of islam during these caliphates.

Does Sharia prohibit acquiring knowledge?

I’ve never said it does.

Conservatives Muslims Absolutely want to prohibit the acquisition of (certain) knowledge.

Even the most “conservative Muslims” were very knowledgeable people. However what you said is true and not just “conservative Muslims” but Muslims in general. Certain subjects like astrology or black magic and certain parts of other subjects like numerology are not allowed for us to study because they involve shirk.

So brining up Sharia is pointless.

Bringing up shariah is absolutely necessary because you want to say the golden age of Islam was good because it wasn’t “conservative” but you also would call shariah law in Pakistan as “conservative” even tho these Muslim states during Islam’s golden age had shariah. I’m just pointing out how you guys selectively choose what you want while ignoring everything else.

How did that turn out? There must be no sects in Islam now right?.... right?

Are you saying the approach of great people like Ali R. A was wrong? Nauzubillah.
Are you ignoring the countless Hadith we have on telling us how to deal with khawarij and how hard to be on them?

There must be no sects in Islam now right?

Fitna was always gonna spread. This was predicted in Hadith’s. Nothing could have stopped it.

1. Lets compare the numbers of mosques blown up by the US/it's allies vs mosques blown up by "mujahedeens" It's not even a comparison

Ofc it’s not even a comparison. Us and its allies have bombed 100x the masjids that khawarij have. American B52 levelled entire villages in Afghanistan.

2. When the secular states do bomb mosques, it is not due to them being sunni, shia, ahmedi, etc.

I agree. It’s due to them being Muslims and not bowing down to their religion, which is the religion of a secularism and world order. They fight ideologically because secularism is also an ideology.

While mujahedeens do target mosques for being the "wrong" type of Muslim.

Those same khawarij are supported by secular states. So by extension, the blood of these innocent martyred Muslims also falls on the hands of secular states. Just like you, me and the state of Pakistan claims ttp is supported by secular india. Ttp bombs masjids. So by extension, secular india is also behind it and responsible for it.

You are asking if a secular state will bury their religious troops in a religious way. I provided examples of them doing so. Is this not what you are saying?

Your answer was about a Muslim cemetery. Was answer was about the Janazah as a whole including the whole process and on multiple levels. The other person responded more thoroughly.

 

[SecularNationalist]

Ask any regular american on the street, Where and what is pakistan, 80% of the people don’t even know where it is. All they know is its a desert country in the middle east. So pakistan has no impact on a common american. Not relevant.

Anti america Rhetoric in Pakistan exists bc of the radicalization of masses done by the religious clerics and army(isi) as they needed people as cannon fodder for Soviet invasion of afghanistan.
This radicalization was embedded in generations to come to wont go away that easily.

And also trust me if i offer US citizenship to anyone of you here or in pakistan in general, will take it in a heartbeat, so this anti americism is just some hypocritical bs.

Yeah most Americans suck at geography lol.
But it doesn't matter whether the average American knows or not the scumbags in the Washington know exactly where Pakistan is and they carefully design their geopolitical agendas around that.

 

[villageidiot]

I never said dont come to US if u dont like us. i apologize if it seems like thats was my message.

Absolutely no need to apologize, sir.
It's just that, I've seen that argument, despite the issue with it, is used by even the most sensible people on here whose posts I admire, such as yourself, which is a bit disappointing.

But, I apologize if I came off rude.

Yeah most Americans suck at geography lol.

Look at at this way. There is no need for them to be good at geography

But it doesn't matter whether the average American knows or not the scumbags in the Washington know exactly where Pakistan is and they carefully design their geopolitical agendas around that.

Bingo

 

[COOKie LOOkie....]

Absolutely no need to apologize, sir.
It's just that, I've seen that argument, despite the issue with it, is used by even the most sensible people on here whose posts I admire, such as yourself, which is a bit disappointing.

But, I apologize if I came off rude.


Look at at this way. There is no need for them to be good at geography


Bingo

i understand what you are trying to say, i get it.
USA is a global bully i am not going to deny that and it will keep doing that. I cant change that. But in reality Pakistan needs to grow some cahunas and learn to push back. Otherwise this attitude will never stop. Some day you are gonna have to stand up to a bully. Way smaller and weaker countries have done that. Its all pressure tactics.
I mean after ages people in US started to respect pakistan gov when Imran was in power but sadly that didn’t go so well.

Yeah most Americans suck at geography lol.
But it doesn't matter whether the average American knows or not the scumbags in the Washington know exactly where Pakistan is and they carefully design their geopolitical agendas around that.

Lol thats true. Maybe its our school system lol.
Thats how foreign policy operates.