Why Agencies have showed such strong attitude against the Shia Community? A mistake?

[veg]

You have mentioned shia and the role of agencies against them in thread title, its clearly reflecting UNWISE actions of targeting specific minority by the agencies of Pakistan, while if the topic is UNWISE actions of agencies or either missing persons then why this thread title is misleading?

I have no problem if the mods change the title to the "Wise/Unwise way of doing things by the Agencies".

If they've not returned after 18 months then they're not innocent .

Samar Abbas is a clear case, who has been returned after 18 months.

Agencies are not angels. Some times positive criticism should be used to bring things in order.

@veg Why do you reckon they're picked up?

Agencies (who arrest them) have not even told the reason.

Any how, the people who are returning, they tell that they were abducted for fighting in Syria. While they say that want to protect their sacred places in Syria, which are under attack by ISIS and al-Qaeda.

Fair enough.

If these Shias are found guilty of taking part in Syrian war, then give them the prison sentence of 14 years. No one is going to raise voice against it, in fact appreciate it so that all Pakistanis are warned not to take part in such wars.

But if the agencies make them the "missing" persons, then they are torturing the whole innocent family, and it is hated, and thus not a wise thing to do.

 

[Reichsmarschall]

kill all zanibuyons

 

[Sugarcane]

Samar Abbas is a clear case, who has been returned after 18 months.

Agencies are not angels. Some times positive criticism should be used to bring things in order.

I personally know the case where 2 Sunni youth was picked, one was returned after 3 months as he was at initial stage of being radicalized and wasn't involved in any unlawful activity, while his friend haven't returned yet (it's been 2 years) and his family (although trying to recover him ) and relatives knew that his behavior and company have become questionable. I also know two shia persons wanted in sectarian attacks cases ran from Pakistan and now married and settled in Iran. This is also fact that Shias being recruited from Pakistan to fight in Syria, so we can't close the eyes and repeat the mistake we made during Afghan Jihad. But yes there should be mechanism to ensure that agencies aren't misusing the power and innocents aren't being punished.

 

[Crystal-Clear]

bbc's propaganda nothing else .

 

[AbuzarIlyas]

Agencies never showed strong behavior against shias. Deobandis got some chitrol due to their support for TTP. But now, after the demise of TTP, some deobandi ulemas are speaking openly against TTP because they had threats from their own seminaries when Punjabi Taliban and other banned organizations were active.

Shias were and are a privileged sect in Pakistan with a large share in power corridors.

 

[Zibago]

oh come on man?
everyday many Pakistanis are killed, what kind of idiot comes up with this ethnic, religious divide for dead people?
should we start counting the Sunnis that are dead in bomb blasts and target killings?

Pakistan is the second biggest Shia country which remains the onky, Sunni country to elect Shia leaders Rex Tillerson clearly said we will exploit human rights abuses of countries we wish to punish this is nothing more than medoa bs by arms of the empire

You misunderstood.

Here is not the question of right/wrong, but the question of WISE vs Unwise manner of doing things.

Pakistani Law gives permission to arrest such persons, and torture could be done after their arrest and no one is going to complaint against it.

But if you make people "missing" and thus torture the whole family, including the children, then strong protests is done against it and enemies of Pak Army gets the chance to do propaganda against it.

And thus it is unwise.

I say just arrest them, present them to the court, get 90 days arrest warrants, do torture if want to do, but don't make them "missing" for their families.



What difference does it make if any one is a Shia or Sunni or Hindu or any one?

Making them "missing" is not wise.

By making them "missing", you are torturing their innocent families including their children.

70% of the missing had connection with militancy Justice Javaid Iqbal

 

[Samlee]

Pakistani Shias have not killed a SINGLE Pakistani Army Jawan up till now (as compared to the Takfiri camp which killed thousands of Jawans).

This shows, that despite them having soft corner for Syrian Assad, they are in no way against the State of Pakistan.


https://www.bbc.com/urdu/pakistan-44288371

Today BBC published the photos of Shias where they were arrested by the agencies, and then they went "missing" after that. They were not presented in the courts. They are missing for the last 18 months and their families know not a single thing if they are living or not.

It is not a WISE way of doing things.

It is "unnecessarily" causing panic in the Pakistani Shia community.

If they have doubts, then they could arrest the person. They could also torture if they think it to be necessary. But torture could still be done even if the family is told about the whereabouts, and also the persons presented to the courts.

If they have doubts, then they could rearrest any person and interrogate again even by torturing. No problem in it, but when the people get "missing", then this brings really bad name to the agencies. No one cares about the torture during arrest, but "missing" means hatred against the agencies increases many folds.

Actually these Pakistani Shias are posing any immediate threat to the State of Pakistan, and thus such extreme attitude is unnecessary.

Little little things make a big problem one day.

(1) Missing Pashtuns.
And we see the reaction in form of movement of Manzoon Pashteen.

(2) Missing Baluchs
And we see the problems in Baluchistan.

(3) Missing MQM members
And we see that Muhajir community does have problems with this missing persons phenomena.

(4) Missing Shia members
It will bring questions in the minds of the Pakistani Shia community.

(5) Media and above the law activities of the agencies
Again not a good idea and should be avoided.

(6) Nawaz Sharif and his supporters will also try to pose problems for the Army. So we need united Pakistan at the moment.

(7) We know Zardari is also against Army. And Sindh may also cause problems one day.

Pak Army is respected in Pakistan. But Army has to be aware of it's enemies. The acts, which are above the law, should only be practised in absolute emergency situations.

Strong Attitude Is Being Shown To Everyone Who Is A Threat To The Stability and Integrity Of Pakistan Not Just A Few Mischief Makers Belonging To Some Sect

 

[Trango Towers]

Pakistani agencies don't just go free anyone.....Why haven't they come after you......answer is simple...You are not agreed to the state. You haven't taken part in activities that could threaten the state. Pakistani shia's are good like most paksitanis but elements within are bad. The bad must be terminated before the cancer spreads

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Do you know whether or not that specific person posed a threat? If not, then this thread is a waste of time.

 

[Zarvan]

Pakistani Shias have not killed a SINGLE Pakistani Army Jawan up till now (as compared to the Takfiri camp which killed thousands of Jawans).

This shows, that despite them having soft corner for Syrian Assad, they are in no way against the State of Pakistan.


https://www.bbc.com/urdu/pakistan-44288371

Today BBC published the photos of Shias where they were arrested by the agencies, and then they went "missing" after that. They were not presented in the courts. They are missing for the last 18 months and their families know not a single thing if they are living or not.

It is not a WISE way of doing things.

It is "unnecessarily" causing panic in the Pakistani Shia community.

If they have doubts, then they could arrest the person. They could also torture if they think it to be necessary. But torture could still be done even if the family is told about the whereabouts, and also the persons presented to the courts.

If they have doubts, then they could rearrest any person and interrogate again even by torturing. No problem in it, but when the people get "missing", then this brings really bad name to the agencies. No one cares about the torture during arrest, but "missing" means hatred against the agencies increases many folds.

Actually these Pakistani Shias are posing any immediate threat to the State of Pakistan, and thus such extreme attitude is unnecessary.

Little little things make a big problem one day.

(1) Missing Pashtuns.
And we see the reaction in form of movement of Manzoon Pashteen.

(2) Missing Baluchs
And we see the problems in Baluchistan.

(3) Missing MQM members
And we see that Muhajir community does have problems with this missing persons phenomena.

(4) Missing Shia members
It will bring questions in the minds of the Pakistani Shia community.

(5) Media and above the law activities of the agencies
Again not a good idea and should be avoided.

(6) Nawaz Sharif and his supporters will also try to pose problems for the Army. So we need united Pakistan at the moment.

(7) We know Zardari is also against Army. And Sindh may also cause problems one day.

Pak Army is respected in Pakistan. But Army has to be aware of it's enemies. The acts, which are above the law, should only be practised in absolute emergency situations.

This is How you spread lies. It was Shias who first started creating trouble after Iranian revolution. Their organisations which were known for making trouble came into existence first. Than Saudis and UAE and other Arab players jumped in to counter that and as they had more money and Pakistan had sunni majority they became more stronger as compared to Shias

 

[veg]

This is How you spread lies. It was Shias who first started creating trouble after Iranian revolution. Their organisations which were known for making trouble came into existence first. Than Saudis and UAE and other Arab players jumped in to counter that and as they had more money and Pakistan had sunni majority they became more stronger as compared to Shias

Yes, indeed Iranian revolution played a role.

But overall the spread of the Jihadi Culture seems to be a "global phenomenon". It is happening there too where there is absolutely no Shia population present.

Egypt is fighting ISIS. Tunisia has problems. Morocco has problems.
Boko Haram is a problem in Africa. al-Shabab is a problem.
Indonesia and Malaysia has problems.
Whole Europe is facing problems at hands of the extremist Jihadies.

In Pakistan, these rough Jihadi elements have more problems with the State of Pakistan and the Pak Army and they are killing Army Jawans in thousands.

While on the other side, the Iranian revolution seems only on ideological level without any practical insurgency. Not a single Army Jawan has been killed by any Pakistani Shia, but they do see Pak Army as their hope for justice and peace.

Therefore, putting both of these groups at same level would not be appropriate.

Pakistani state face no imminent danger from the Shia community. Therefore, I wonder how wise is it to go to "missing" tactics by the agencies, while same effects could also be easily achieved by remaining in the premises of law, thus saving the nation from the negative impacts of "missing person" tactics.

Strong Attitude Is Being Shown To Everyone Who Is A Threat To The Stability and Integrity Of Pakistan Not Just A Few Mischief Makers Belonging To Some Sect

Pakistani agencies don't just go free anyone.....Why haven't they come after you......answer is simple...You are not agreed to the state. You haven't taken part in activities that could threaten the state. Pakistani shia's are good like most paksitanis but elements within are bad. The bad must be terminated before the cancer spreads

Agree and Agree (with both of you). State should prohibit any to take part in such activities and punish those who disobey the state.

But both of you are only pointing out the "Problem". While I am talking here about the "Wise Solution".

Making the people "missing" is not a wise thing to do, when you could easily make arrests/tortures/imprisonments without making them missing too. Such missing tactics should only be used in extreme situations, otherwise they may backfire.

If State says they are arrested for illegal activities, then the rest of community could better understand it. But if peoples are made "missing" and thus torturing the whole family and children, then this is equal to spreading grieve and anger in the community unnecessarily.

Agencies are not angels and they could make mistake. They should not be given an open license to making people missing/kill and think that they are above the law. It is like saving the agencies from their own mistakes.

Do you know whether or not that specific person posed a threat? If not, then this thread is a waste of time.

Nobody knows if a person is a threat or not. So, just arrest the person and investigate by any means (including torture etc.). And officially give them the prison sentence. This would be appreciated by all in Pakistan.

But making people missing is unnecessary and it is backfiring.

 

[Zarvan]

Yes, indeed Iranian revolution played a role.

But overall the spread of the Jihadi Culture seems to be a "global phenomenon". It is happening there too where there is absolutely no Shia population present.

Egypt is fighting ISIS. Tunisia has problems. Morocco has problems.
Boko Haram is a problem in Africa. al-Shabab is a problem.
Indonesia and Malaysia has problems.
Whole Europe is facing problems at hands of the extremist Jihadies.

In Pakistan, these rough Jihadi elements have more problems with the State of Pakistan and the Pak Army and they are killing Army Jawans in thousands.

While on the other side, the Iranian revolution seems only on ideological level without any practical insurgency. Not a single Army Jawan has been killed by any Pakistani Shia, but they do see Pak Army as their hope for justice and peace.

Therefore, putting both of these groups at same level would not be appropriate.

Pakistani state face no imminent danger from the Shia community. Therefore, I wonder how wise is it to go to "missing" tactics by the agencies, while same effects could also be easily achieved by remaining in the premises of law, thus saving the nation from the negative impacts of "missing person" tactics.





Agree and Agree (with both of you). State should prohibit any to take part in such activities and punish those who disobey the state.

But both of you are only pointing out the "Problem". While I am talking here about the "Wise Solution".

Making the people "missing" is not a wise thing to do, when you could easily make arrests/tortures/imprisonments without making them missing too. Such missing tactics should only be used in extreme situations, otherwise they may backfire.

If State says they are arrested for illegal activities, then the rest of community could better understand it. But if peoples are made "missing" and thus torturing the whole family and children, then this is equal to spreading grieve and anger in the community unnecessarily.

Agencies are not angels and they could make mistake. They should not be given an open license to making people missing/kill and think that they are above the law. It is like saving the agencies from their own mistakes.





Nobody knows if a person is a threat or not. So, just arrest the person and investigate by any means (including torture etc.). And officially give them the prison sentence. This would be appreciated by all in Pakistan.

But making people missing is unnecessary and it is backfiring.

In Pakistan it was Iranian revolution

 

[veg]

In Pakistan it was Iranian revolution

I think it started with the Iranian revolution. But at the same time there was a war going on in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union, and for that we had a lot of Jihadi activities too. Later this Jihadi Activities also played it's role and caused a lot of damage to Pakistan.

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

No one is targeted due to their religious beliefs.
This is the propaganda which is done to create rift and hate between Muslims like always.

All those who are caught/held are those who either directly or indirectly are working against the state of Pakistan.

 

[veg]

No one is targeted due to their religious beliefs.
This is the propaganda which is done to create rift and hate between Muslims like always.
All those who are caught/held are those who either directly or indirectly are working against the state of Pakistan.

Have you read the posts in this thread?
I have to make thing clear again and again.

It is not about targeting anyone due to religious beliefs, but is about accomplishing the tasks "wisely" by the agencies.

Whatever your belief is, whatever your race is, whatever your language is, but you will be arrested if you go against the laws of the State.

So, every Pakistani will appreciate the agencies if they arrest such rough elements.

But problem is arising here that agencies are making these people "missing", which is itself against the constitution of the State, and it is brining a lot of negativity with it, and it is equal to torturing the whole family.

Agencies could easily fulfil their task while staying in the law premises (arresting/torturing/investigating/legal sentence of prison... all could be done within the legal premises easily). For this purpose they don't have to make the people missing.