Who Won the Air War in 1971?

[RedBaron]

I know that India won it in land, sea and air. There are still many Pakistanis who want to somehow convince themselves that they won the air war.

Let's see what have they got for us.

Not all Pakistanis are convinced they won the air war. Here's one PAF officer who thinks PAF performed below par in 1971.
Read the full article here: The Fighter Gap - 1

Excerpt:
Has the PAF performed well? There has been no critical appraisal. The PAF like the other services must have made mistakes or even blunders but these have not been debated. Truth is stranger than fiction. The PAF except for a very short period in '65, performed well below the required. It is a relatively small force, the support that it can provide to the Army and Navy must be its main role. Has the PAF provided such assistance? Why not? Because the PAFs role remains a debate. It should assist the Army and the Navy and not fight its own war. The three services must fight the same war and not their own separate battles.

Incidentally, the author, PAF Sqn Ldr (Retd) SHUAIB ALAM KHAN is the brother of Pak Army Brig ZA Khan who was involved in the Longewala operations (read my earlier post about his account of Longewala operations).

So here, you have it from PAF and Pak Army officers: PAF did not support Pak Army in 1971 Western Theatre.

I must confess the family is quite p*ssed off at Pak Army/PAF leadership.

 

[Jihad]

Aww, the Indians can't have it that they lost 1 battle.
Cheer up guys, more chances to come now, especially with these tensions mounting up.
Perhaps you warmongers will finally get what you want.

 

[RedBaron]

Aww, the Indians can't have it that they lost 1 battle.
Cheer up guys, more chances to come now, especially with these tensions mounting up.
Perhaps you warmongers will finally get what you want.

Not war-monger, just truth-seeker. Read my other posts on the forum - I have argued against war every single time...

But please let's call a spade a spade....

That is why I quoted PAF and Pak Army accounts for this particular thread, not any Indian account.

 

[Jihad]

Not war-monger, just truth-seeker. Read my other posts on the forum - I have argued against war every single time...

But please let's call a spade a spade....

That is why I quoted PAF and Pak Army accounts for this particular thread, not any Indian account.

Your truth is war.
Perhaps it is not you who has been itching for war, but your fellow countrymates have been dieing for war, and weren't able to sleep for days I think just because they want India to fire things up.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

This has been brought up before as well, and just to reiterate the point, you cannot merely assume that the air war was won by the IAF solely because the War in East Pakistan was won by India.

The title of the thread itself belies that assumption.

If you want to discuss which side had supremacy in the air, then it has to be a discussion limited solely to how the two air forces performed against each other, and not some sort of 'holistic analysis' of the entire war, in which case this thread should be closed and the debate should shift to a general thread on the 1971 war, and any argument over who won would be pointless since we know final result of that war.

If you lot want the discussion to continue, then drop the 'won 1971 and therefore won the air war' assumption. This thread is only about the PAF vs the IAF in 1971.

 

[RedBaron]

This has been brought up before as well, and just to reiterate the point, you cannot merely assume that the air war was won by the IAF solely because the War in East Pakistan was won by India.

Ironically, according to Sqn Ldr Khan in his article above, East Pakistan is where PAF performed better. He says on Page 2:

"The only place where the PAF acquitted itself well was in East Pakistan, both in '65 and in '71. In '65, it struck Kalikunda twice, Bhagdogra, Hasimara and Agartala. In 71 the Dacca air base, handicapped by not having a wireless observer unit or a main radar (evacuated to West Pakistan) gave an excellent account for itself. It lost only four aircraft in air combat, including the present Chief of Air Staff who became a prisoner of war. The IAF was severely punished in its day attacks and despite, the Indian preponderance of 10 or 20 to 1, they stopped day raids and concentrated their air effort to night high altitude bombing. No aircraft was damaged by these attacks, 12 or 13 aircraft remained when runway repair was given up and the pilots were evacuated, according to plan."


IAF mandate was not merely dogfighting PAF and counting kills. It's primary role was to support the Army, which it did splendidly. So who won the Air War? Even assuming PAF may have had more kills to its name, its lack of support caused the Longewala debacle and Karachi port to be attacked by missile boats. Is it a case of winning a battle yet losing the war?

I rest my case. For those who want to delve into details please read both articles in their entirety. They are lucid and entertaining. Thank you all.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Ironically, according to Sqn Ldr Khan in his article above, East Pakistan is where PAF performed better. He says on Page 2:

"The only place where the PAF acquitted itself well was in East Pakistan, both in '65 and in '71. In '65, it struck Kalikunda twice, Bhagdogra, Hasimara and Agartala. In 71 the Dacca air base, handicapped by not having a wireless observer unit or a main radar (evacuated to West Pakistan) gave an excellent account for itself. It lost only four aircraft in air combat, including the present Chief of Air Staff who became a prisoner of war. The IAF was severely punished in its day attacks and despite, the Indian preponderance of 10 or 20 to 1, they stopped day raids and concentrated their air effort to night high altitude bombing. No aircraft was damaged by these attacks, 12 or 13 aircraft remained when runway repair was given up and the pilots were evacuated, according to plan."


IAF mandate was not merely dogfighting PAF and counting kills. It's primary role was to support the Army, which it did splendidly. So who won the Air War? Even assuming PAF may have had more kills to its name, its lack of support caused the Longewala debacle and Karachi port to be attacked by missile boats. Is it a case of winning a battle yet losing the war?

I rest my case. For those who want to delve into details please read both articles in their entirety. They are lucid and entertaining. Thank you all.

Your 'case' would appear to validate the assertion that the PAF did indeed win the PAF vs IAF contest.

As I said before, this thread isn't about the war of 1971, it is about the performance of the two air arms vs each other. What the IAF's mission was doesn't matter within that limited context - the IAF would obviously have to engage with PAF fighters when it came into contact with them.

Its not like the IAF pilots said, 'ignore the PAF fighters boys, our job is to support the ground forces', and then proceeded to get shot down by the PAF.

 

[Vinod2070]

^ lol... IAF facts and figures are OFCOURSE biased.

Here watch this video:

IAF had claimed before this interview that the Sdqr Leader and two of his men had been shot down and killed.

Nn7CM5sijg0[/media] - PAF vs IAF must see to find out which one is the best

Can we get over this single video that is played endlessly by some Pakistani members and quoting Chuck Yeager?

This is just a few young men bragging on their base in front of cameras. Their word is no gospel.

Chuck Yeager has been proved to be factually wrong and biased.

 

[Vinod2070]

I disagree with limiting the air war to a numbers game of IAF Vs. PAF.

First, there is no way to confirm the numbers. Both sides have widely different claims. Then the air forces were not fighting their own personal war but were a part of the bigger effort and that perspective can't be lost in any serious debate.

The number of sorties flown, the support to the army advances, the attrition rate per sorty, the kind of secondary targets hit, the aircrafts lost in air Vs. ground (flying low to provide close air support) etc. can't be taken out of any equation. They have to form part of the overall data points.

 

[Goodperson]

OK PAF has won some battles in easter or western fronts of India but Pakistan lost the war. I do not see any significance in PAF winning if at all the nation looses.

 

[Vinod2070]

This has been brought up before as well, and just to reiterate the point, you cannot merely assume that the air war was won by the IAF solely because the War in East Pakistan was won by India.

The title of the thread itself belies that assumption.

If you want to discuss which side had supremacy in the air, then it has to be a discussion limited solely to how the two air forces performed against each other, and not some sort of 'holistic analysis' of the entire war, in which case this thread should be closed and the debate should shift to a general thread on the 1971 war, and any argument over who won would be pointless since we know final result of that war.

If you lot want the discussion to continue, then drop the 'won 1971 and therefore won the air war' assumption. This thread is only about the PAF vs the IAF in 1971.

I meant the role of the two air forces holistically in the overall war effort. Not just their claimed kills in the air.

I hope that makes it clearer.

 

[EagleEyes]

Not all Pakistanis are convinced they won the air war. Here's one PAF officer who thinks PAF performed below par in 1971.
Read the full article here: The Fighter Gap - 1

Excerpt:
Has the PAF performed well? There has been no critical appraisal. The PAF like the other services must have made mistakes or even blunders but these have not been debated. Truth is stranger than fiction. The PAF except for a very short period in '65, performed well below the required. It is a relatively small force, the support that it can provide to the Army and Navy must be its main role. Has the PAF provided such assistance? Why not? Because the PAFs role remains a debate. It should assist the Army and the Navy and not fight its own war. The three services must fight the same war and not their own separate battles.

Incidentally, the author, PAF Sqn Ldr (Retd) SHUAIB ALAM KHAN is the brother of Pak Army Brig ZA Khan who was involved in the Longewala operations (read my earlier post about his account of Longewala operations).

So here, you have it from PAF and Pak Army officers: PAF did not support Pak Army in 1971 Western Theatre.

I must confess the family is quite p*ssed off at Pak Army/PAF leadership.

This incident has been discussed to death, and has been posted by sir Murad in the same thread. Just because IAF got clear shot at the Pakistan Army in their OWN country.. doesn't mean ANYTHING about IAF having supremacy. Enjoying such a feat is a clear embarrasement that the force couldn't keep their own air space clear during the war time.

As for those who are mentioning about their great feat about dividing Pakistan, and being successful enough to force the Pakistan Army to surrender need to realize that ANY nation can be divided and surrendered in the event we were in.

With all the history, and the heroes we have. I would pick the PAF with 50 odd fighters over IAF having a dominance force of 100+ which was minimum average in the both wars fought between two nations.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

what a sorry @ss loser indian reta officer! trying to be so factual and real but faild mesriably to provide facts rather he proved himself to be a attention fool joker!

Brig General Chuck Yeager's account [29] of the war, from his autobiography, is selectively quoted by Pakistanis in support of PAF claims. However, the credibility of the same is also completely destroyed through the inclusion of certain laughable gems in his own assessment, such as the claim that India wanted to keep East Pakistan for itself, that the IAF operated the MiG-21J (not inducted until 1973 as the MiG-21MF) and that F-86 and F-104 Starfighters constituted half the PAF fleet of 500 aircraft!

the funny thing is he himslef has exaggerate and twisted the figers more then chuck did.. PAF with 500 aircraft?? lol

ACIG.ORG

(In summary, on 3 December 1971, the PAF had seven F-104A/B Starfighters, 23 Mirage IIIEP/RP/DP (of which some 20 were operational), a total of 136 F-86F and Sabre F.Mk.6s (118 operational), 54 F-6 and MiG-19s (48 operational), 19 B-57Bs (18 operational), one B-57C and two RB-57Fs, eleven T-33As and three RT-33As, 37 Cessna T-37As, some 40 T-6s (of which 17 were deployed in combat), at least three Fokker F.27s and nine C-130s, for a total of 263 combat-, around a dozen of transport-, and slightly over 80 training aircraft, as well as 12 helicopters.)

still 263 or even 300 combat strenth is no where close to 500 what mr. wanna be factual says.

Yeager gives away his agenda by explicitly labeling the conflict as a surrogate war between the Soviet Union (India) and America (Pakistan). Yeager also mentions that the outcome on the ground was the complete opposite of the outcome of the air war, where the PAF "whipped their (Indian) ***** in the sky ". Yet, without the IAF's dominance over the battlefield and the consequential ability to provide uninterrupted support to ground forces throughout the conflict, how could that have ever happened? Perhaps this embarrassingly false account simply added to the PAF's lack of credibility, fueled in the past by ridiculous claims. Pakistani sources even needed to fabricate the IAF's strength in order to once again portray a David-vs-Goliath
struggle.

no dough chuck is anti soviet but the fact does not change that PAF destroyed over 100 IAF fighters! not all in the air like chuck mentioned.

For example, a prominent PAF author [37], claims that the IAF had no less than 1200 combat aircraft alone, against the IAF's actual strength of 625 combat aircraft. Another author, a retired Pakistani Brigadier, claims [38] that the IAF was in fact, in possession of, MiG-23s and MiG-19s, as early as 1965.

lol check out the professionalism in him! now he is playing "he said that he said this" game and still did not provide any accurate information! IAF did had a strenth of 1200 aircraft not all combat like this fact twister says. i dough any pak rtd officer would make such a claim like IAF operated mig-23 and 19 when even our pak military fanboys know better heck i have come across indian fanboys on youtube who claim PAF had f-16s in 1971 war.

Funnily enough, it was the PAF itself and not the IAF, which had a MiG-19 variant, the Shenyang F-6C, during the follow on 1971 conflict. It is thus unsurprising to see so many independent air-power and airwar analysts [30] [33] [35] castigate the PAF for the use of rather bare faced propaganda

funnily enough, it was PAF with 40 opperational F-6A not "C" varriant like this guys claims.

 

[GunMan]

1.we all know the final outcome of 71 war.so,no point in seeing air war,ground war or sea war separeately.

2.IAF lost majority of its fighters from ground fires during ground attack sorties.Also its widely believed that IAF did more than twise the ground attack sortie PAF did.In that process though it lost many aircrafts its also helped the ground troops in bringing fast and definite outcome of the war.Which was not exactly the case with PAF ,take for instance , Longewala battle.

3.Both in 65(definitely) & 71 wars PAF had numerically little smaller but technically better fighters than IAF.PAF was also undoubtedly better trained with ace pilots like Chuck Yeager(USAF). so not surprisingly,the PAF had a better kill ratio.

4.This is important and any millitary enthusiast should keep this in mind to see Indo-Pak conflicts in a rational way.

Before 65 war,pakistani leardership had this view(self sustained) that some how Indians(hindus) are inferior in a martial context.U know all those bogus martial race banter.Thats why Pakistan attacked India in during 1965.But after the debacle of 71 war,its sinked down in the minds of pakistanis that its impossible to take India in conventional wars.That why they vowed to bulid nuclear weapons any how and started a policy of proxy war to bleed in india in thousand cuts which is continuing in some form or other till date e,g.,Punjab,Kashmir...LeT,Jaish,fake currency etc

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I do not see any significance in PAF winning if at all the nation looses.

Its irrelevant in the context of this thread.