Who the hell is so cruel ?

[Ratus Ratus]

^^ It is not an official policy of Indian government to do so. It is an opinion piece by an editor of a magazine and that means squat when it comes to government's policies towards Pakistan. You are deluding.

Well someone is being delusional on this.

From IDR on their about page:

Indian Defence Review, a quarterly journal, is read by almost all leading policy makers at senior bureaucratic, political and military levels. Time and again, the incisive analyses in the Indian Defence Review have helped form opinions and shape strategic responses on the sub-continent.

So either they, IDR, are fabricating truth or it has some basis of truth.

If it is a lie then why has this false claim not been removed.

 

[linkinpark]

India's stance towards US involvement in Iraq has been neutral so far and perhaps it backs US in its WOT in Afghanistan as it affects Indian security as well. As you might know, India has started a number of initiatives to develop and build infrastructure in Afghanistan.

An article on Indian involvement in Afghanistan.

Asia Times Online :: South Asia news, business and economy from India and Pakistan

 

[linkinpark]

Well someone is being delusional on this.

From IDR on their about page:

So either they, IDR, are fabricating truth or it has some basis of truth.

If it is a lie then why has this false claim not been removed.

Well every newspaper or magazine always write such stuff "most widely read news papers or magazine and blah blah"

Please don't take it at its face value.

 

[Bane Blade]

Bane Blade, there are two ways of looking at this tragedy. One is to blame India too often a convenient scapegoat for all that ails Pakistan and do nothing. The other is to hold your leaders accountable for their inability to provide security for its people. For all his failures, the one thing George W. Bush did right was to prevent another terror attack post 9/11. If India is indeed responsible, gather evidence and present it to the world community and have India declared a state sponsor of terrorism. Security is a prerogative of every citizen; if your government fails repeatedly to provide it then I’m afraid your government is beyond incompetent.

Well India can only be blamed when Pakistan will have its own voice not a US speaker. As for the fact that this is a scapegoat I think that the evidence has been produced in the past and as this is a national political issue when we have our own opinions and I emphasise that it will take time but slowly such evidence will be revealed once we have our own voice.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

I don’t take it at face value and as far as the article referenced goes it strikes me as being somewhat out of touch with reality. In fact it sounded a bit like a rerun of the old Raj and colonial systems. The article squashes all regional power concepts and places in regional colonial power.


Trashing aside that article as it is so one eyed even a one eyed god would have problems accepting it. Realistically India would have little to gain from causing such blasts in the long march process.

Those to gain are those that have nothing and can gain by further fragmenting the fragile political balance in Pakistan.

Unfortunately too many believe that the so called nice militants will do nothing to hurt Pakistan. Nice militants are just militants and have their own axe to grind and nice is not one of their words. It is like moderate Taliban, garbage!

It is about time people realised that Pakistan is under attack from within.
Also realise it will not go away it will get worse.
This has nothing to do with failed states and other trash it is simply about a group sitting on the side looking at the current politics and seeing what they can steal/take demand to their gain.

SAWT was the start. This is the continuance.

NOW face it, it is real.

 

[wtf]

A lot of people feel that al-Qaeda is the given name to trained agents of RAW in Afghanistan as for Mehsud a peace deal has been reached in Swat and media has shown how things are safe their once again.

Thanks for your frank comments.

I cannot speak for Pakistan, but I think as a citizen, I can speak for some of the people in India I have met. No one I have met has ever talked of conquering Pakistan for land - No one including the most anti-Pakistan, anti-Islam people I have met. I have heard talks of destroying camps in Kashmir, a quick and dirty war - but never an attempt at a full fledged conquest.

I personally favour open borders, but I also believe that it has to come from peace not by subjugation.

In as much as Indian government opinion reflects the will of the people (hopefully democracy does that), I don't believe Indian government believes that either. Indian RAW recruits mainly from civil/paramilitary/military and tends to be full of IAS/IPS/IFS officers (admin, police and foreign service). They usually follow the civilian opinion and do not have independence to go against the mainstream opinion (Even the book "Kaoboys of RAW" talks about the govt. influence within RAW). So I have to believe they had nothing to do with this.

Al Qaeda can't be a name given for RAW because they hijacked an Indian airplane, pretty much humiliating the BJP govt (Note that the same guy released by India was blamed by US for the 9/11 attacks).

In summary, the power balance between intelligence agencies, politicians, army and the people are very different in India and Pakistan. I will be wrong if I assumed that what was happening in India will happen in Pakistan and similarly assuming that things in India are similar to Pakistan will be wrong. In India, corruption and poverty are endemic, and things muddle along but in the long term will of the people tends to work - and I, as a citizen, represent some of that "will" and I don't want a war. So sometimes some of these theories sound far-fetched to me.

I was wondering what made you so anti-India and I am happy to have started understanding your feelings.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

This is about as pathetic as your politicians:
Well India can only be blamed when Pakistan will have its own voice not a US speaker

It has been pointed out often here of late Pakistanis tend to blame others, ie outsiders, for their own problems.
This is a straight forward internal one.

In many instances Pakistan keeps saying India did this, RAW back something, and so on. BUT at no point has this been presented to any authority.
There is INTERPOL, the UN Assembly for starters. At no point has anything been brought up. The UN Assembly is one of the best places to at least produce the intel as it would go world wide via media.

But of course you can not use either of these as they are Zionist back propaganda machine and what other crap you lot keep saying about the UN.

Just continue as an ostrich and burry you head in the sand.

 

[wtf]

It has been pointed out often here of late Pakistanis tend to blame others, ie outsiders, for their own problems.
This is a straight forward internal one.

In many instances Pakistan keeps saying India did this, RAW back something, and so on. BUT at no point has this been presented to any authority.

But of course you can not use either of these as they are Zionist back propaganda machine and what other crap you lot keep saying about the UN.

Just continue as an ostrich and burry you head in the sand.

Inasmuch as Bane Blade represents Pak. people's opinion, we can't call it an Ostrich behavior.

Pakistani govt. rarely blames India officially - the worst they say is "possible foreigners are suspected". If they blamed India and then refused to take it to the UN, then yes, it would be kinda odd.

But on the other hand some of the people on the forum seem not to believe the official version of stories - and usually suspect India for everything that goes wrong. And I guess if it was in their power, they'd have dragged things to UN/Interpol too.

I was trying to find out the root cause of the conspiracy theories - is it the lack of trust in government, the education, the press, the general culture etc. Even more odd is the Pakistani government taking the Benazir murder to UN - does he not trust his own police ?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I was wondering what made you so anti-India and I am happy to have started understanding your feelings.

You must realize that given the lack of interaction between the people on both sides, and the extremely low probability of an Indian telling a Pakistani that they would rather see a destabilized or broken Pakistan (on the few occasions they do interact face to face) Pakistanis can only draw conclusions about Indian intentions from the views articulated by Indians in their media, on Indian forums and blogs, and of course their government.

The above sources do not by any means paint a pretty picture of Indian opinion towards Pakistan, contrary to what you would have us believe.

The policies and views as articulated by the Indian government are essentially a replication of Blane Blade's position on this thread that is being criticized - blame the ISI for every ill in India, ostensibly to deflect from the Indian government's own failures domestically and use Pakistan as the convenient whipping boy. Yet pejorative language such as 'distorted world view' and 'paranoid' is hardly ever seen applied with the Indian accusations, despite the fact that the Indian government has never been able to publicly present any significant evidence indicating Pakistani institutional involvement outside of Kashmir.

Contrast that with the official GoP position on these issues, which has largely been restrained, a source of much frustration for many of us who do not see such restraint changing Indian attitudes or policies, and resulting in Pakistan losing the 'propaganda war'.

The past policies of the Indian government have included sponsoring insurgencies in collaboration with the Afghans over the NWFP, Baluchistan and of course East Pakistan, so when Pakistanis do point the finger at India, there is good historical justification to do so. Much as the Indians extrapolate from Pakistan's support for the Kashmiri Freedom Movement in disputed Kashmir to encompass all else that goes wrong in India.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

their potential has been seen in the past and I absolutely don't think that any of their agenda's state that they attack muslims plus they have recently after the acceptance iof Shariah in Swat have commanded to not attack Pakistan it was discussed on a show a few days ago.

That is not quite true - It is pretty clear by now that we have Al Qaeda (assorted terrorists or whatever you want to call them) operating in Pakistan. In some cases they have aligned themselves with local Taliban and other extremist and criminal elements, in others they operate independently taking advantage of the lawlessness of the region and Tribal traditions of not turning away 'guests'.

It is also clear, from Iraq if no where else, that groups such as Al Qaeda are completely willing to murder at will and with abandon. The recent case of the Iraq woman who was arrested for example - she would have men rape girls and women whose fragile mental state she would then exploit to convince them to become suicide bombers. She is alleged to have done this to as many as eighty women!

It is by no means a stretch to imagine this kind of ideology as having spread its tentacles in Pakistan and wreaking similar havoc.

I have always argued that whether the Indians are involved in funneling money and weapons to the militants in the North West of Pakistan is moot from the standpoint of Pakistan addressing the security threat in the present. So long as we cannot control our own tribal areas, we will find it hard to address the threat from beyond our borders, if it exists. Our primary objective and focus must therefore be on restoring the writ of the government on every inch of Pakistani soil.

 

[jeypore]

You must realize that given the lack of interaction between the people on both sides, and the extremely low probability of an Indian telling a Pakistani that they would rather see a destabilized or broken Pakistan (on the few occasions they do interact face to face) Pakistanis can only draw conclusions about Indian intentions from the views articulated by Indians in their media, on Indian forums and blogs, and of course their government.

The above sources do not by any means paint a pretty picture of Indian opinion towards Pakistan, contrary to what you would have us believe.

The policies and views as articulated by the Indian government are essentially a replication of Blane Blade's position on this thread that is being criticized - blame the ISI for every ill in India, ostensibly to deflect from the Indian government's own failures domestically and use Pakistan as the convenient whipping boy. Yet pejorative language such as 'distorted world view' and 'paranoid' is hardly ever seen applied with the Indian accusations, despite the fact that the Indian government has never been able to publicly present any significant evidence indicating Pakistani institutional involvement outside of Kashmir.

Contrast that with the official GoP position on these issues, which has largely been restrained, a source of much frustration for many of us who do not see such restraint changing Indian attitudes or policies, and resulting in Pakistan losing the 'propaganda war'.

The past policies of the Indian government have included sponsoring insurgencies in collaboration with the Afghans over the NWFP, Baluchistan and of course East Pakistan, so when Pakistanis do point the finger at India, there is good historical justification to do so. Much as the Indians extrapolate from Pakistan's support for the Kashmiri Freedom Movement in disputed Kashmir to encompass all else that goes wrong in India.

The conspiracy theories do run wild and rampent, you must admit. With people like Ahmid Quarashi and zahid Hamid , who are given limelight to even elevate these theories.

And i am really surprised by your word of "Propaganda War". Truly, do you really believe that mumbai attack was a great source for India to play propaganda war towards Pakistan, or was it credible justification for India to push Pakistan.

 

[wtf]

The past policies of the Indian government have included sponsoring insurgencies in collaboration with the Afghans over the NWFP, Baluchistan and of course East Pakistan, so when Pakistanis do point the finger at India, there is good historical justification to do so. Much as the Indians extrapolate from Pakistan's support for the Kashmiri Freedom Movement in disputed Kashmir to encompass all else that goes wrong in India.

I don't know for what all you believe India blames Pakistan, but I think there is some understanding here of homegrown terrorists/seperatists and others. Naxalites, Maoists, ULFA (atleast mostly), LTTE , Ranbir Sena etc. are seen as internal problems with no overt support by Pakistan. No one points fingers at Pakistan when they go around killing people.
On the other hand the list you made seems to include every sort of trouble you seem to be having - Come on, what does India have to do with NWFP ? The first link I get when I google NWFP + India is this one which says Taliban is not just Pakistans problem.

The Taliban is not only Pakistan's problem

 

[rubyjackass]

This may have been affected when people who want to destabalize Pakistan it is true and now the suspicions on our neighbours increases ten fold for only after they saw progress did they do this sort of an attack. I think Indian policy should definately sort itself and they are the ones in my opinion who are extremely cruel.

No. Its just that you have so much hate packed in yourself that you refuse to see the obvious.

A better theory might be pro-Zardari elements doing it, but not doing till the protests ended for fear of implications.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The conspiracy theories do run wild and rampent, you must admit. With people like Ahmid Quarashi and zahid Hamid , who are given limelight to even elevate these theories.

And i am really surprised by your word of "Propaganda War". Truly, do you really believe that mumbai attack was a great source for India to play propaganda war towards Pakistan, or was it credible justification for India to push Pakistan.

To the extent that India pushed hard for the LeT arrests and closures, her position was justified. The LeT did indeed cross the line by doing what they did.

However, the Indian government did engage in blaming Pakistani institutions, and continuous 'leaks' and 'official sources' vilified Pakistan and her military from day one, and to a smaller degree continue to do so. That was unacceptable from a Pakistani perspective, especially when you look at the back channel diplomacy that had almost resulted in a breakthrough on Kashmir and other major issues under Musharraf. The GoI's position poisoned the atmosphere between the peoples of both nations and the sabre rattling distracted from the WoT.

The Indians knew that neither the Pakistani military nor the government had any interests in vitiating the atmosphere with something like the Mumbai attacks, given how close we were to a breakthrough in our relationship. Pakistan had also held to its end of the bargain in drastically cutting of cross-LoC infiltration and maintaining the ceasefire, yet the GoI chose to completely destroy all the goodwill that had been generated under Musharraf and the peace process.

Again, I contrast that with the official position Pakistan takes on the Baluch insurgency and other terrorist attacks in Pakistan = we have just as much reason, if not more, to point the finger at India for these terrorist attacks, yet the GoP sticks with the vague 'possible foreign hand' statement, because the GoP does not ostensibly want to create an atmosphere that precludes any meaningful dialog, even if unofficial.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I don't know for what all you believe India blames Pakistan, but I think there is some understanding here of homegrown terrorists/seperatists and others. Naxalites, Maoists, ULFA (atleast mostly), LTTE , Ranbir Sena etc. are seen as internal problems with no overt support by Pakistan. No one points fingers at Pakistan when they go around killing people.
On the other hand the list you made seems to include every sort of trouble you seem to be having - Come on, what does India have to do with NWFP ? The first link I get when I google NWFP + India is this one which says Taliban is not just Pakistans problem.

The Taliban is not only Pakistan's problem

Thank you for acknowledging the lack of a Pakistani connection with the North East problems, but the impressions one gains from other Indian forums and the media is somewhat different from yours.

For example, the recent allegations of Pakistan supporting the Bangladesh Border Guard mutiny were iniitated and pushed vigorously not by the Bangladeshi media, but the Indian! And links connecting the ISI to the North East troubles were again bandied about.

Your media is not merely satisfied with blaming Pakistan for everything under the sun in India, but cheer-leading efforts to link us to anything that goes wrong in other countries as well, with some pretty absurd conspiracy theories - but point out to me one Western analysis that paints this inane conspiracy mongering by Indians as 'a distorted world view' or 'paranoia.

The brunt of those comments is to be solely born by Pakistanis and Muslims apparently.

From attitudes such as these I cannot but form an extremely critical opinion of Indian intentions towards Pakistan (and the West to some degree)