Whither Now? The Attack Helicopter Problem for PA

[CriticalThought]

Hmmm... a tender for hangars does not confirm the arrival of helicopters my friend. Would like to see proper evidence.



A-10s, by most accounts, papers, reports, reason and evidence is a far more survivable platform than an attack helicopter, even the Apache. Please read the last few articles I just posted. There is no contest literally. The USAF has been wanting to retire them for highly political reasons, more than anything else.

Please check out post #19 on this thread. I will post more articles if you like, but the available research is very clear.

Here is some to get you started on survivability of the A-10 compared to the most heavily armored attack helicopter - the Apache.
https://www.military-quotes.com/forum/a10-vs-ah64-t1113.html
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=6459
https://defenseissues.net/2013/03/23/why-usaf-hates-a-10-and-why-it-cant-be-replaced/
http://www.rense.com/general38/a10.htm

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2003/04/chop_the_chopper.html

If you just look at the results even in OIF - A-10s accounted for HALF of all the tanks destroyed in the war. While Apaches got badly shot up, losing 10% of the fleet in a single engagement. And then there is Afghanistan and Kosovo, again... no comparison.

In each case, the air defences were systematically degraded first. The A-10 isn't a flying tank with explosive reactive armor on it. MANPADs are enough to take it down. There is no politics involved in stopping it's career. You need to let go of the past if you want to proceed to the future. The only thing that gave it further life is ISIS.

 

[MiG-35-BD]

aircraft survivability is dependent on a number of parameters for the CAS mission:

1. Armour / defensive countermeasures
2. Speed
3. Agility

For X amount of dollars, a CAS aeroplane will always be better than an attack helicopter in all three.

 

[CriticalThought]

aircraft survivability is dependent on a number of parameters for the CAS mission:

1. Armour / defensive countermeasures
2. Speed
3. Agility

For X amount of dollars, a CAS aeroplane will always be better than an attack helicopter in all three.

Can you please provide a reference to academic research, or scholarly article that backs up your claim?

 

[MiG-35-BD]

you need to do your own research. I have shared a good deal of articles and information, but you just dismiss them with a few lines of your own opinions, based on very little reading and information.

In this field you don't generally go back to "academic articles" but to standard publications in the defense industry. But these are very simple and basic things I am talking about, anyone who knows the a, b, c of the subject would be able to discuss them in a meaningful way. Which you haven't been able to do, yet brushing aside things I am saying with random stuff you come up with.

I'll just leave it at that. Good luck with your research.

 

[araz]

In each case, the air defences were systematically degraded first. The A-10 isn't a flying tank with explosive reactive armor on it. MANPADs are enough to take it down. There is no politics involved in stopping it's career. You need to let go of the past if you want to proceed to the future. The only thing that gave it further life is ISIS.

The A10 did surprise its detractors with the rovustness of its performance. At 6-8 miles away it will be at the edge of most short range SAMs. However can we replicate what tbe A10 did in our arena is what needs to be answered. The iraqis did have plenty of SAMs but whether their stratgy was good or not is another point that needs discussing.
So a lot of questions and not enough answers as there is no other force barring the US that have used a similar platcorm to such effective use. By the same token with attack helos reaching 50-60 million a pop xoes one risk them vs a 3-6 million platform? Can UCAVs do better or similarly? And can we manufacture UCAVS cheaply enough in sufficient numbers to matter.
A

 

[CriticalThought]

The A10 did surprise its detractors with the rovustness of its performance. At 6-8 miles away it will be at the edge of most short range SAMs. However can we replicate what tbe A10 did in our arena is what needs to be answered. The iraqis did have plenty of SAMs but whether their stratgy was good or not is another point that needs discussing.
So a lot of questions and not enough answers as there is no other force barring the US that have used a similar platcorm to such effective use. By the same token with attack helos reaching 50-60 million a pop xoes one risk them vs a 3-6 million platform? Can UCAVs do better or similarly? And can we manufacture UCAVS cheaply enough in sufficient numbers to matter.
A

The way forward globally is UCAVs. This is a matter of when, not if.

Iraqi SAM sites were systematically destroyed. As a matter of fact, not a single aeroplane flew over Iraq until the SAMs were taken down. And interestingly, they used stealth helis to get the job done. The initial volley of Desert Storm was fired by stealth helis!

 

[Mumm-Ra]

The way forward globally is UCAVs. This is a matter of when, not if.

Iraqi SAM sites were systematically destroyed. As a matter of fact, not a single aeroplane flew over Iraq until the SAMs were taken down. And interestingly, they used stealth helis to get the job done. The initial volley of Desert Storm was fired by stealth helis!

Did the US had stealth tech. back then? Which Helis are stealth capable?

 

[CriticalThought]

Did the US had stealth tech. back then? Which Helis are stealth capable?

They have been making RAM coatings for a long time. Lookup the now sidelined Commanche project. What I remember reading is that they were stealth helicopters.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

pardon me - I forgot about that!

will PAAF get them in numbers? China is the better option to be churning this out in numbers in a joint venture - a la JF-17.
PAAF got 4 gunships from Russia - but the partnership isnt even close to what you have with China.

PAAF? You mean Pak Army Aviation.

Nope.. initial or confirmed order is for 4 MI-35s... that too for Special Forces..

Hmmm... a tender for hangars does not confirm the arrival of helicopters my friend. Would like to see proper evidence.



A-10s, by most accounts, papers, reports, reason and evidence is a far more survivable platform than an attack helicopter, even the Apache. Please read the last few articles I just posted. There is no contest literally. The USAF has been wanting to retire them for highly political reasons, more than anything else.

Please check out post #19 on this thread. I will post more articles if you like, but the available research is very clear.

Here is some to get you started on survivability of the A-10 compared to the most heavily armored attack helicopter - the Apache.
https://www.military-quotes.com/forum/a10-vs-ah64-t1113.html
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=6459
https://defenseissues.net/2013/03/23/why-usaf-hates-a-10-and-why-it-cant-be-replaced/
http://www.rense.com/general38/a10.htm

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2003/04/chop_the_chopper.html

If you just look at the results even in OIF - A-10s accounted for HALF of all the tanks destroyed in the war. While Apaches got badly shot up, losing 10% of the fleet in a single engagement. And then there is Afghanistan and Kosovo, again... no comparison.

Maybe not arrival but definitely confirmation of the deal.

 

[Dazzler]

3 Vipers arrived in August and confirmed by Flight Global.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/attack-helicopter-rivals-target-warsaws-kruk-deal-440924/

 

[Arsalan]

Would appreciate if you share a link indicating delivery. All I have heard are rumors... and if delivered, how many?

3!
3 systems were delivered last year. We have received a couple of deliveries of support equipment for those three as well as for coming birds. More will arrive within 2018.

As for a link, please follow below:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/attack-helicopter-rivals-target-warsaws-kruk-deal-440924/

 

[MiG-35-BD]

quoting from your link:

"Separately, Bell on 14 August delivered its first AH-1Z to an export customer, under a 12-aircraft deal with Pakistan. The remaining aircraft are scheduled to be handed over before the end of 2018."

I sure hope they do get delivered and not like the F-16s.

 

[GriffinsRule]

I had posted earlier in this or another AH-1Z thread ... they were delivered from the factory on August, but accepted by the US Navy on behalf of the Pakistani government in September of last year. I'd wager they are still in the US for now, unless just recently having been delivered, but seems unlikely.

 

[TOPGUN]

quoting from your link:

"Separately, Bell on 14 August delivered its first AH-1Z to an export customer, under a 12-aircraft deal with Pakistan. The remaining aircraft are scheduled to be handed over before the end of 2018."

I sure hope they do get delivered and not like the F-16s.

Nope these are coming for- sure !!!!

 

[HRK]

I had posted earlier in this or another AH-1Z thread ... they were delivered from the factory on August, but accepted by the US Navy on behalf of the Pakistani government in September of last year. I'd wager they are still in the US for now, unless just recently having been delivered, but seems unlikely.

View attachment 456729

If possible plz attach the complete article and magazine name issue number ....