Where is Islam in Islamic Republic of Pakistan?

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Sir jee, it will be similar to the selection of armed forces. A board that makes the selection. They board will itself be a part of Ministry.

The Army functions well because it performs limited functions, and providing services and justice to a population is not one of them. If anything, Pakistan's martial laws have shown that the Military system too starts to become corrupt and inefficient the longer the military tries to run the government.

So experience would indicate that the system is not a good choice for running a nation, though it works well in a limited role, such as within a specific institution designed to do a specific task.

If you have some machine to judge if someone is holy or evil then tell me. Sir, there is no way to tell that someone is a good admin or not. Then why do you always presume that educated people are evil.

I did not say that educated people are evil, but if the people are judges through elections, then an government that is evil should be voted out.

The people selected in the Ministry will obviously not fall from sky Sir. They will be from the public. If you think democracy gives everyone a chance then look at Pakistan. When father dies after being PM, his daughter comes. When that daughter dies, his husband comes. . and now his son is waiting for becoming PM. .

And what will stop these 'selected people' from not forming their own cabal to retain power and promoting their own kith and kin for positions in government?

Democracy in Pakistan is flawed because the people need to exercise their voting rights better, not because democracy itself is evil. The fault lies with the people, not just because of poor voting choices (not voting is a poor choice) but also because there are not enough people taking the initiative to form alternative political parties.

That is why you need to pay attention to Hazrat Ali (R.A)'s example. In this system even the Khalifa can be dragged to the court by a common person.

And we can amend the constitution to 'drag the President to court' as well. But there is still no proper explanation of how the Khalifa is to be chosen, and what checks and balances the system will have.

Before the Khalifa's selection all his assets are made known to everyone and after his tenure if his assets are greater, he is held accountable. . .

You can do that by passing laws to that effect in the current system as well - the problem is implementation of laws and autonomy of institutions such as law enforcement and the judiciary from the elected representatives, so that the former two can act as a check and balance on the exercise of power by the government.

 

[LEGENDARY WARRIOR]

TO AGNOSTIC MUSLIM

Sir, you say that democracy in Pakistan is flawed as families rule here. I want you to search the internet and you will know that same is the case in US, Obama and Bush are cousins. . . . Democracy is not the solution

 

[pak-marine]

assalam alaikum

See u ppl call for democracy and freedom of specah etc but when ppl demonstrate their will u can't digest it. Why dont u appreciate the collective wisdom of the masses when they rallied behind Qaid instead of mullahs for the creation of pakistan and now when they rallied behind the mullahs on the issue of toheen e risalat law etc.?
U call them bigoted supporterst, jahils etc

TARIQ

people demonstrate their will in elections sir , no matter how worst the politicians are still people vote for secular political parties as compared to mullahs and these mullahs take part in every town and & city all they get is a few handful vote this is proven a number of times refer to election results!! Those who protested are few thousand and those who vote are few millions ... hope that clears your perspective of mass support mullahs have!! given the space we have big population and these mullahs have a tool on their hand which are friday prayers they use fiery speech to provoke people and unfortunatly lack of education some of our brethren amoung us have given blind support to these radicals which has resulted in what we have in pakistan now

 

[pak-marine]

Thats your nice excuse of not practicing Islam.
sunni

thank you ... now if you notice we have further complication here there are many other sects who do not agree thats why an Islamic based system cannot be implemented in Pakistan its a very diverse country , and if i practice or not its btw me and Allah and has nothing to do with the business of state

 

[TARIQ BN ZIYAAD]

people demonstrate their will in elections sir , no matter how worst the politicians are still people vote for secular political parties as compared to mullahs and these mullahs take part in every town and & city all they get is a few handful vote this is proven a number of times refer to election results!! Those who protested are few thousand and those who vote are few millions ... hope that clears your perspective of mass support mullahs have!! given the space we have big population and these mullahs have a tool on their hand which are friday prayers they use fiery speech to provoke people and unfortunatly lack of education some of our brethren amoung us have given blind support to these radicals which has resulted in what we have in pakistan now

assalam alaikum

street protest is also a form of democracy afterall there was a protest of close to 2 million against war in iraq if i m not wrong except it was not enough to stop the govt. while this shutter down was enough to stop the so it is acceptable. Does it mean if an entity could not get into the parliment doesnot have the right to express its views or protest against any law?

Regarding friday prayers and how mullah use the jahil public doesnot the political parites do it? Political parties uses it on day when their party was estableshed when their party boss was hanged and when he was born etc playing with the emotions is going on by all of them.

However i dont think that all mullahs r angles and not all politicians r bad i don't know about u ?

Regards

TARIQ

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Sir you are asking for a very detailed description of how the Islamic State is setup and functions... It would be beyond the scope of the thread... Can you understand my frustration here that although I have put up material about it in more than one step, no one really bothers looking at it with patience... Is it my fault then that I feel people are not serious to look at my presentation?

I think hardly ten people have seen this video and I have posted it at least five times on the forum... Khair... in private then...

I would owe you one if you watch it... JazakAllah Khair

Ok - i watched most of it, and it offers no details, just an articulation of policy changes such as ending privatization etc.

The speaker says that 'power plants shall be owned by the people, and the Khalifa will appoint someone to manage them', but he does not answer the central issue of providing details on how an 'Islamic System' is to function.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

TO AGNOSTIC MUSLIM

Sir, you say that democracy in Pakistan is flawed as families rule here. I want you to search the internet and you will know that same is the case in US, Obama and Bush are cousins. . . . Democracy is not the solution

I didn't say democracy is flawed because families rule - if families are elected by the people and they do excellent work then so be it. I said democracy is flawed because people are not exercising their right of voting properly, for various reasons.

We need to work on making our electorate more informed and give it more choices to make democracy work.

 

[Jigs]

This is basically an excuse for not following Islam... its as simple as that...

because if you look at it... There are more than TWO HUNDRED differences in the Fiqh of different schools about how to pray Nimaz... but never has anyone dared state that Nimaz is not Fard... By the secularists logic, we should not even pray now??

I am starting to think your delusional. Secularism neither is in favor of or against Islam or any religion. The person has the right to choose and practice as he/she pleases. Do you understand ? Let me give you a example. In Turkey someone can pray 5 times a day and go to mosque and read the quran and hadith as much as they like and live their life as it tells them to. If they want to study Islam we have schools for them. No one tells them its wrong or right it is their choice.

These secularists have destroyed Pakistan and the Islamist who sit with them in the Parliament are equally bad...

What have secularists done that is destroying Pakistan ? Did they create blasphemy laws? Did they bring religious parties with extremist elements into its political system? Did they form the Mullah supported mobs that kill people if they state doesn't find them guilty of anything?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

I am starting to think your delusional. Secularism neither is in favor of or against Islam or any religion. The person has the right to choose and practice as he/she pleases. Do you understand ? Let me give you a example. In Turkey someone can pray 5 times a day and go to mosque and read the quran and hadith as much as they like and live their life as it tells them to. If they want to study Islam we have schools for them. No one tells them its wrong or right it is their choice.

What have secularists done that is destroying Pakistan ? Did they create blasphemy laws? Did they bring religious parties with extremist elements into its political system? Did they form the Mullah supported mobs that kill people if they state doesn't find them guilty of anything?

Bro I have told Indians to refrain from commenting in this Thread which is only for Pakistanis only.
Please let us Pakistanis debate.
thank you.

 

[pak-marine]

assalam alaikum

street protest is also a form of democracy afterall there was a protest of close to 2 million against war in iraq if i m not wrong except it was not enough to stop the govt. while this shutter down was enough to stop the so it is acceptable. Does it mean if an entity could not get into the parliment doesnot have the right to express its views or protest against any law?

They have the right to express but its a small minority my reply was to your previous post where you were giving example as masses poured into the streets, its not masses its a smal minority the Pakistani masses vote and that confirms they are secularist in nature .

 

[Myth_buster_1]

I didn't say democracy is flawed because families rule - if families are elected by the people and they do excellent work then so be it. I said democracy is flawed because people are not exercising their right of voting properly, for various reasons.

We need to work on making our electorate more informed and give it more choices to make democracy work.

You have ignored the posts which clearly states Islam is not just a individual practice but something that is to be practice together with the society.

Islam is not just a practice of praying fasting reading quran. Its a way of life its a law and guidance. etc.

Democracy is not Flawless unlike Islam. And a real muslim does not brings the level of Islam down to the laws that were created by HUMANS.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Before partition only MUSLIMS (who practiced Islam) demanded a separate state Pakistan. It would only make sense for Pakistan to be secular state if Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, etc demanded freedom from India.
Their is absolutely no point of separating from India if all what Muslims at that time wanted to be "secularist" and to practice their religion at home. Wouldnt it be better to fight for Secularism in India and demand equal rights?
Pakistan case to be separated from India only is strong if Muslims wanted a land for Muslims+Islam. People think Islam gives no rights to minorities well then people need to quickly go and order Quran and read it.

 

[Jigs]

Bro I have told Indians to refrain from commenting in this Thread which is only for Pakistanis only.
Please let us Pakistanis debate.
thank you.

I am not Indian and this is a public forum. So if i find something i disagree with i will post on it. It is of course up to you to read/respond/ignore it. If the moderation feels something i have posted is not in line with the rules they can take action.

This also part of the secular system.

 

[T-Faz]

Muslims demanded a separate state, these Muslims hailed from multiple sects and the only two religious groups to give their full support to the idea of Pakistan were Agha Khani's and Ahmadis.

Many Parsis, Hindus, Christians amongst others also decided to support the idea of Pakistan and the nations founding fathers addressed them to assure them of their safety in Pakistan.

It was minority groups who put their money into the treasury when Pakistan was born and Jinnah in return appointed members from groups who had a big contribution in making Pakistan.

Here is a brief history of 'minority' support for Pakistan:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010\12\07\story_7-12-2010_pg3_2

 

[TARIQ BN ZIYAAD]

They have the right to express but its a small minority my reply was to your previous post where you were giving example as masses poured into the streets, its not masses its a smal minority the Pakistani masses vote and that confirms they are secularist in nature .

assalam alaikum

We can go on , but the fact is the govt. backtracked from its wish it is a clear that mullahs had a point and the backing of the ppl and the govt. knew it so it surrendered

TARIQ