When the majority chooses not to resist and stay silent..

[CardSharp]

You are stepping on the toes of an Admin Staff on this Board, Chogy -

I am not offended by him (like I haven't heard similar arguments a million times before). I am annoyed by his I'm morally better than you because I'm religious BS.

 

[SMC]

The western media never mentions any criticism or protests from muslims towards extremists and terrorists. NEVER, EVER, or at least very rarely. If they do mention it, it's buried somewhere deep on the website. If the western media at least had some sense of shame or a sense of being neutral, they would mentioned it. But no, it never happens. And thus it's hardly surprising that some people don't see the criticism.

 

[Chogy]

I am not offended by him (like I haven't heard similar arguments a million times before). I am annoyed by his I'm morally better than you because I'm religious BS.

Have I EVER delved into the first person (I, me) in this argument? I speak in generalities, which despite their reputation, can be valuable tools to analyze group dynamics. My personal observations are quite real with regards to the missions. I have flown HUNDREDS of religious groups to Central America whose only aim was to ease suffering.

If you want to ignore the reality of it, that's fine. Couldn't care less. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Pretty much everyone ignores data when it conflicts with their worldview.

As for that, the notion of 100 million killed is historic revisionism, "White Guilt" at its worst. Native Americans were hunter-gatherers for the most part, and populations that large are totally unsustainable without infrastructure and agriculture. Consider U.S. population only now is at 360 million, and it took 500 years of colonization, advanced agriculture, railways and highways, to get there. Only in Mexico and points south was there significant agriculture, and you can thank the Spanish rather than "American Democracy" for their suffering and demise.

For every scholarly article that says 100 million, I can find five that disagree. And these tribes were butchering each other in horrific ways long before Europeans arrived. Constant warfare was the norm, and tribe displacing tribe was commonplace. Why aren't the Cherokee complaining about the Seminole that drove them out of Florida?

Every single nation on earth with recognized borders has had its population supplanted at some time in the past. Do we give a pass if something happened 500 years ago? How about 3,000, or 10,000 years ago? Almost all of Europe belonged to the Neanderthals. They were wiped out to the last individual approximately 30,000 to 50,000 years ago. Genocide!

I am 100% for freedom to choose faith, or reject it utterly. That is the choice of the individual. But to cast blame on faith-based organizations for all of the ills of mankind is simple ignorance. We have seen again and again that power, land, and resources drive conflict FAR MORE than religion.

 

[CardSharp]

Have I EVER delved into the first person (I, me) in this argument? I speak in generalities, which despite their reputation, can be valuable tools to analyze group dynamics. My personal observations are quite real with regards to the missions. I have flown HUNDREDS of religious groups to Central America whose only aim was to ease suffering.

If you want to ignore the reality of it, that's fine. Couldn't care less. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Pretty much everyone ignores data when it conflicts with their worldview.

As for that, the notion of 100 million killed is historic revisionism, "White Guilt" at its worst. Native Americans were hunter-gatherers for the most part, and populations that large are totally unsustainable without infrastructure and agriculture. Consider U.S. population only now is at 360 million, and it took 500 years of colonization, advanced agriculture, railways and highways, to get there. Only in Mexico and points south was there significant agriculture, and you can thank the Spanish rather than "American Democracy" for their suffering and demise.

For every scholarly article that says 100 million, I can find five that disagree. And these tribes were butchering each other in horrific ways long before Europeans arrived. Constant warfare was the norm, and tribe displacing tribe was commonplace. Why aren't the Cherokee complaining about the Seminole that drove them out of Florida?

Every single nation on earth with recognized borders has had its population supplanted at some time in the past. Do we give a pass if something happened 500 years ago? How about 3,000, or 10,000 years ago? Almost all of Europe belonged to the Neanderthals. They were wiped out to the last individual approximately 30,000 to 50,000 years ago. Genocide!

I am 100% for freedom to choose faith, or reject it utterly. That is the choice of the individual. But to cast blame on faith-based organizations for all of the ills of mankind is simple ignorance. We have seen again and again that power, land, and resources drive conflict FAR MORE than religion.

How about refuting the points I made instead of those someone else made. I said nothing about who killed whom (waste of time)... and please... accusing me of conformational bias? the tea pot calling the kettle black.

And no you didn't say personally I am morally better than you, but what you did is essentially the same. It's like me saying that all ethnic Chinese are inherently morally superior, I could be speaking in generalities but even you can see how that would be pretty damn transparent.

Have I EVER delved into the first person (I, me) in this argument? I speak in generalities, which despite their reputation, can be valuable tools to analyze group dynamics. My personal observations are quite real with regards to the missions. I have flown HUNDREDS of religious groups to Central America whose only aim was to ease suffering.

this... if the bible didn't espouse proselytizing as a ticket to heaven would any of your buddies give a flying F about the natives? So it can really be said, those religious missionary are only dangling Aid and charity in front of these poor people as a bait in their little religious games and that they couldn't care less about people's well-being as individuals.

 

[below_freezing]

Have I EVER delved into the first person (I, me) in this argument? I speak in generalities, which despite their reputation, can be valuable tools to analyze group dynamics. My personal observations are quite real with regards to the missions. I have flown HUNDREDS of religious groups to Central America whose only aim was to ease suffering.

If you want to ignore the reality of it, that's fine. Couldn't care less. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Pretty much everyone ignores data when it conflicts with their worldview.

As for that, the notion of 100 million killed is historic revisionism, "White Guilt" at its worst. Native Americans were hunter-gatherers for the most part, and populations that large are totally unsustainable without infrastructure and agriculture. Consider U.S. population only now is at 360 million, and it took 500 years of colonization, advanced agriculture, railways and highways, to get there. Only in Mexico and points south was there significant agriculture, and you can thank the Spanish rather than "American Democracy" for their suffering and demise.

For every scholarly article that says 100 million, I can find five that disagree. And these tribes were butchering each other in horrific ways long before Europeans arrived. Constant warfare was the norm, and tribe displacing tribe was commonplace. Why aren't the Cherokee complaining about the Seminole that drove them out of Florida?

Every single nation on earth with recognized borders has had its population supplanted at some time in the past. Do we give a pass if something happened 500 years ago? How about 3,000, or 10,000 years ago? Almost all of Europe belonged to the Neanderthals. They were wiped out to the last individual approximately 30,000 to 50,000 years ago. Genocide!

I am 100% for freedom to choose faith, or reject it utterly. That is the choice of the individual. But to cast blame on faith-based organizations for all of the ills of mankind is simple ignorance. We have seen again and again that power, land, and resources drive conflict FAR MORE than religion.

EDIT* no reason for me to argue. your mind's set, i don't argue with extremists.

 

[Chogy]

Cardsharp, the peoples of Central America are already strongly Catholic. There is no "prosetylizing" to be had. There is simply... help needed. These people gave of their time and treasure to do so. You seem to assume the worst intentions in people, when in fact their intentions are quite noble.

they couldn't care less about people's well-being as individuals.

That, to me, speaks volumes... that you would assume selfishness ("ticket to heaven") rather than altruism is what drives these missions. Have you a basis for this opinion? Or is it simply a general feeling that "nobody does anything for anybody without a reason."

below freezing - in what sense am I an "extremist?" Is anyone of faith an extremist now? What have I done to deserve such a label?

 

[LaBong]

Let's not call someone an extremist just because he/she doesn't subscribe to your believe/ideology. By doing so, we'd be no better than religious nut-cases labelling everyone around them.

 

[justanobserver]

@Chogy

The North East in India is infested by christian terrorism, yep thats right 'christian' terrorism., with AKs and RPGs and all that jazz

The tribals there used to be a peace loving folk. But then these missionaries from the USofA 'civilized' (read radicalized) them . Now they want to break off from the Indian union and form a christian state!

This has actually created a huge debate in India's christian community traditionally orthodox/catholic, in fact these missionaries are trying to convert them as well to lutheran !

I have first hand info, was in south India for a while, saw a pamphlet by these fanatic orgs, on it were symbols of 'Om' and the 'Crescent' referred as untrue, and a huge cross over them with the words "follow the true faith" !

 

[Chogy]

@Chogy

The North East in India is infested by christian terrorism, yep thats right 'christian' terrorism., with AKs and RPGs and all that jazz

Are you implying I approve because they are Christian? Or that I believed organized Christianity to be spotless? Ridiculous.

If crimes are committed, they should be dealt with harshly.

Do I need to quote myself?

I am 100% for freedom to choose faith, or reject it utterly. That is the choice of the individual.

I am against religious extremism of any kind, by any group. I am also against sociological/governmental extremism (Nazism, Stalinism, Maoism, to name a few), which is how this particular argument got started.

I am a friend of anyone, of any belief, who helps their fellow man.

 

[CardSharp]

Cardsharp, the peoples of Central America are already strongly Catholic.

Yes I suppose they just woke up one day all Catholics. The Missionary arm of the Spanish conquest didn't have anything to do with it. Your friends friends maybe late but they are still there to keep the herd together. (Can you honestly tell me that they don't push religion when they are there? )

That, to me, speaks volumes... that you would assume selfishness ("ticket to heaven") rather than altruism is what drives these missions. Have you a basis for this opinion? Or is it simply a general feeling that "nobody does anything for anybody without a reason."

Would you like to see my families tax receipts? We don't pay for Indulgences like you folks do, we give because other people are worth helping regardless of their particular faith. By the way, the United way is one of our favourite charity.


From Creationist.org

United Way being boycotted because of its anti-Christian activities

*can you still say it's all about helping people*

No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one,
and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. - Matthew 6:24

Other Businesses and Organizations being boycotted

Click here for the latest updates...

For the past several years, several United Way chapters have been involved in harassment of the Boy Scouts of America by cutting off their funding. Several other chapters are currently giving consideration to doing the same. The reason for this is the Boy Scout's stance on not allowing homosexuals into the organization as scout leaders or scouts. For an up-to-date list of which United Way chapters have done this, see this link:
*Seems more like a turf war than about Christian charity*

http://www.saveourscouts.com/hall.html



We are encouraging Christians to end all of their United Way contributions until 100% of these attacks by the UW stop,
*How dare they help needy people without religious strings!*
and those that have already occurred are fully reversed. We are also encouraging you to ask the United Way for a refund of anything you contributed during 2001, including to their September 11 Fund. As an alternative, consider giving the money to:

Some of the many Christian Organizations that are standing firm against the rising tide of apostasy in our society today. *Onward, Christian Soldiers! Marching off to War! Tolerance? what's that?*

Directly to organizations in your area that you have an interest in supporting.
Your local Boy Scout Council.
If you asked the UW for a refund of money you gave to the September 11 fund, or want to help the 9/11 victims with a new donation, consider giving the money to the Red Cross instead. We saw on a recent Fox TV news program that victims of the 9/11 terrorist attack are not getting 100% of the UW 9/11 donations. In fact, examples were given of several liberal left-wing organizations receiving some of the money instead of the victim's families (including a legal aid organization that is offering to defend some of the alleged terrorists). The Red Cross recently pledged that 100% of the donations they receive to their Liberty Fund will go to the victims and their families.
Many people contribute to United Way because of the convenience of the automatic payroll deduction that many employers offer for contributions. Contributing to organizations other than United Way is just as easy. Contact your bank and see if they offer automatic bill pay (most do). If so, you can use their bill pay system to automatically schedule payments to be sent to your favorite charity. When you contact the UW to end your donations, or ask for a refund, they may tell you that you have the option of designating that all of the money go to the organization of your choice, including the Boy Scouts. This is not as good of a solution as bypassing UW altogether for a few reasons.

If for instance you specify that the Boy Scouts get the money, that doesn't mean the Scouts will get any more than if you hadn't made the specification. The UW can simply reduce what they would have given to the Scouts from their general fund by the same amount.
You need to ask yourself whether or not you really want to give any money to an organization that has a past track record of attacking a good cause like the Boy Scouts? The more money they have, the more they can use it as clout against the Boy Scouts. Give it directly to the Scouts (or at least a portion of it) and you save the Scouts the kind of problems that they've been experiencing with these local UW chapters.

The trend seems to be that more of the local UW chapters are giving consideration to eliminating funding for the scouts.*Yeah how dare they speak out against discrimination of homosexuals in the boy scouts*
If we don't send a strong message to UW that this will not be tolerated, look for this trend to continue.

We can make an example of the United Way. Other charity organizations or even private businesses that are thinking about pulling funding for this reason may think twice before doing it

United Way being boycotted because of its anti-Christian activities

 

[Chogy]

Yes I suppose they just woke up one day all Catholics. The Missionary arm of the Spanish conquest didn't have anything to do with it. Your friends friends maybe late but they are still there to keep the herd together. (Can you honestly tell me that they don't push religion when they are there? )

A useless and diverting rhetorical question... of course they were converted, some forcefully, some willingly... 450 years ago. Regardless of the methodology, they are happily Catholic, as many in countries outside of Arabia are happily Muslim. But I am against any sort of forced conversion.

Would you like to see my families tax receipts? We don't pay for Indulgences like you folks do, we give because other people are worth helping regardless of their particular faith. By the way, the United way is one of our favourite charity.

Can we get any more juvenile? Should I scan my tax returns? Is my junk larger than yours? I am not speaking on an individual level, but in general. The very definition of generalizations means that there are exceptions.

The analysis of the United Way means little. I am not a fan of the United Way to begin with, as their overhead is ~17% Not bad, but not that great either. Efficiency is important, but that is another argument, another thread. More important to me, there isn't a single charity in the U.S. at least that is crammed down workers' throats more than the United Way. Entire corporations have forced United Way drives where groups with low donation percentages are shamed. That is not the way to give. It should come from the heart and be voluntary.

People can give to the charities of their choice. If they exclude charities with agendas that they do not agree with, that doesn't make their alternative giving less meaningful. I suspect you do NOT donate to religious charities, but I may be wrong.

We don't pay for Indulgences like you folks do,

I am not Catholic.

Indulgences abuse generally went the way of the dinosaur about the time of the reformation.

True Christian monetary charity is best described by the Parable of the Widow's Mite. You give what you can.

The Widow’s Offering

Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a fraction of a penny.

Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.”

Again, I'm sorry if your feelings got hurt. I relay the facts as I observe them. I simply haven't seen any non-religious groups volunteering their time and treasure in these poor countries I fly to. You ascribe to them motivations with no basis in reality beyond your own "best guess" as to why they do it. To claim it is a "ticket to heaven" is every bit as insulting, if not more so, than my claim that religious organizations (more than others) get their hands dirty in the trenches, actually doing stuff that needs to be done.

 

[justanobserver]

Are you implying I approve because they are Christian? Or that I believed organized Christianity to be spotless? Ridiculous.

You missed the point, which was that faith/religion doesn't give you any kind of moral high ground.

And again my intention was not to attack Christianity, but to clear your false perception that missionaries always help people and spread the message of 'love and tolerance'.

What you're currently thinking: "Oh, these missionaries are going to third world countries, helping people, preaching peace",

I'm telling you that it's not all black and white, these charities are multibillion dollar orgs which give incentives on the basis of the number of people they convert.

Its pure business ! No morals/ethics involved.

 

[CardSharp]

A useless and diverting rhetorical question... of course they were converted, some forcefully, some willingly... 450 years ago. Regardless of the methodology, they are happily Catholic, as many in countries outside of Arabia are happily Muslim. But I am against any sort of forced conversion.



Can we get any more juvenile? Should I scan my tax returns? Is my junk larger than yours? I am not speaking on an individual level, but in general. The very definition of generalizations means that there are exceptions.

The analysis of the United Way means little. I am not a fan of the United Way to begin with, as their overhead is ~17% Not bad, but not that great either. Efficiency is important, but that is another argument, another thread. More important to me, there isn't a single charity in the U.S. at least that is crammed down workers' throats more than the United Way. Entire corporations have forced United Way drives where groups with low donation percentages are shamed. That is not the way to give. It should come from the heart and be voluntary.

People can give to the charities of their choice. If they exclude charities with agendas that they do not agree with, that doesn't make their alternative giving less meaningful. I suspect you do NOT donate to religious charities, but I may be wrong.



I am not Catholic.

Indulgences abuse generally went the way of the dinosaur about the time of the reformation.

True Christian monetary charity is best described by the Parable of the Widow's Mite. You give what you can.



Again, I'm sorry if your feelings got hurt. I relay the facts as I observe them. I simply haven't seen any non-religious groups volunteering their time and treasure in these poor countries I fly to. You ascribe to them motivations with no basis in reality beyond your own "best guess" as to why they do it. To claim it is a "ticket to heaven" is every bit as insulting, if not more so, than my claim that religious organizations (more than others) get their hands dirty in the trenches, actually doing stuff that needs to be done.

His persistence in missing the point is actually kind of demoralizing. Maybe that's how the Christians grew. The Roman's whipping arm got tired and decided if you can't beat them join them.

 

[Chogy]

You missed the point, which was that faith/religion doesn't give you any kind of moral high ground.

The only "moral high ground" was my statement, which has you guys wound tighter than a cheap Chinese watch, that faith-based groups tend to get down and dirty, and help people in real life situations... and that I have never seen a group of Atheists get together to build houses and create sanitary water in countries like Belize, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Haiti.

This was immediately pounced upon, (paraphrased...)
"They are doing it to get to heaven."
"It's all about Prosetylization..."
"They are multi-billion dollar orgs with an agenda..."
"There is no altruism there..."
"You are a fool if you believe they are doing this just to be nice..."
"You are an extremist..."

How sad that you think this of these people.

I'm telling you that it's not all black and white, these charities are multibillion dollar orgs which give incentives on the basis of the number of people they convert.

Its pure business ! No morals/ethics involved.

And how did you come to that ^^ conclusion?

Lets compare:

United Way - multibillion dollar org, high overhead
UNICEF - multibillion dollar org, high overhead
South Wassetia Methodist Church - 12 people and a budget of $20,000, raised from local donations; carrying hammers, nails, and the muscle and will to use them.

I was an Atheist for 25+ years before I chose Protestant Christianity. My brother is an Atheist. We debate frequently. It's not like I don't understand the dynamics.

Faith-based charities have helped the hungry, the homeless, the orphans, the poor, for centuries, almost all of it on a local level, with volunteer rather than paid workers, making them extremely efficient. A dollar to a Catholic charity will go further than a dollar to the March of Dimes or UNICEF.

This is becoming circular. All I can tell you is what my eyes have seen in 20 years of commercial aviation to some of the poorest countries on Earth. I have a pilot friend who visits several hospitals before flying to Guatemala. At those hospitals, he gathers large parcels of donated medicine and other medical supplies. On the ground in Guatemala, he delivers these to a local charity. And you guys claim his motivations are selfish.

Again, how sad.

 

[siegecrossbow]

The only "moral high ground" was my statement, which has you guys wound tighter than a cheap Chinese watch

That was uncalled for.