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When Japan and China were friends

Remember the division of East Asia serves only one : The Western Powers.

That's the statement that changes all historically-charged equations when it comes to China-Japan historical relationship.

The key question, without being too much arrested by by-gone days' pains, sufferings and resentments, is who would gain the most from a bad-blood between China and Japan?

I would argue it would neither be China nor Japan. The region overall would also suffer immensely. Small and medium powers are already forced to choose between China and the US, at times. If they are forced to make another hard choice between China and Japan, that's dynamiting regional stability.

Let's not miss out on the bigger picture.

The only real winner from China-Japan discord is and will be the United States. Just as it plays the sectarian politics in the Middle East and ensure hegemony there, it will more and more play the historical-baggage politics in East Asia to legitimate its illegitimate military dominance and keep everyone in check, including their mutual development prospects.

There is really very little to gain for China (as much as for Japan) from a stubborn enmity with Japan. Both sides will need to become more open-hearted in terms of grievances and won't have the need to resort to historical revisionism to heal wounds. Rather, in an open-hearted way, we need to talk about past, but also plan and be very excited about future while making the best from the present time.

In that regard, I commend @Arryn , @Nihonjin1051 , @Shotgunner51 and the likes' efforts and high-spirit in promoting and academically arguing about East Asian integration and a Pan-Asianist agenda. Geo and politics push China and Japan together; resisting the natural forces of greater unity will only create atrophy.
 
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Remember the division of East Asia serves only one : The Western Powers.

Well you guys have been at each others throats for a long time. It didn't serve the west much 150 years ago so who are you going to point as the "chief benefactor" back then...Korea maybe? You gotta be kidding me. So the "it only serves so-and-so" thing is about as far from being part of the core problem as saying bad economic planning in the US only serves Pakistan's interests (say what??).
 
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When the japanese are cozying up to all of our OPPOSITIONS NOW - Vietnam, Philippines, Tsai IW, India USA
When the japanese is supporting all of our OPPOSITIONS even on forums
When the japanese is sprouting the spirits of imperialism when they see a crack in every way possible
When the japanese is still denying many of their wrong doings in their history books
When the japanese is chanting "collapse of China" 24/7 in their publications and media
When the japanese is still refusing to admit Diaoyu Islands are in DISPUTE
--- now tell me who is in the wrong of not promoting a more cordial relationship?
--- now tell me what is the definition of pragmatism?

Over 90% of our netizens wanted japan to move away from us.
Over 90% of our netizens were doing the right thing

The ONUS is on japan - the japanese!

images

,
 
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That's the statement that changes all historically-charged equations when it comes to China-Japan historical relationship.

The key question, without being too much arrested by by-gone days' pains, sufferings and resentments, is who would gain the most from a bad-blood between China and Japan?

I would argue it would neither be China nor Japan. The region overall would also suffer immensely. Small and medium powers are already forced to choose between China and the US, at times. If they are forced to make another hard choice between China and Japan, that's dynamiting regional stability.

Let's not miss out on the bigger picture.

The only real winner from China-Japan discord is and will be the United States. Just as it plays the sectarian politics in the Middle East and ensure hegemony there, it will more and more play the historical-baggage politics in East Asia to legitimate its illegitimate military dominance and keep everyone in check, including their mutual development prospects.

There is really very little to gain for China (as much as for Japan) from a stubborn enmity with Japan. Both sides will need to become more open-hearted in terms of grievances and won't have the need to resort to historical revisionism to heal wounds. Rather, in an open-hearted way, we need to talk about past, but also plan and be very excited about future while making the best from the present time.

In that regard, I commend @Arryn , @Nihonjin1051 , @Shotgunner51 and the likes' efforts and high-spirit in promoting and academically arguing about East Asian integration and a Pan-Asianist agenda. Geo and politics push China and Japan together; resisting the natural forces of greater unity will only create atrophy.




Going foward is good and all but the historical baggage is just too great to resign to the annals of history.

I have no hope for reparations or Japanese accountability whatsoever but now even merely recognignition
and acknowledgement of the war itself is in jepardy. Outside of abstract statistics ans small passages concerning the war, it seems like more importance is being placed in disputing what really happened.

As Keel stated, the onus in on Japan and Japan will benefit substantially by addressing the Injustice inflicted last century. I believe that China is large and strong enough to propel foward regardless of good East asian relations.

That's the statement that changes all historically-charged equations when it comes to China-Japan historical relationship.

The key question, without being too much arrested by by-gone days' pains, sufferings and resentments, is who would gain the most from a bad-blood between China and Japan?

I would argue it would neither be China nor Japan. The region overall would also suffer immensely. Small and medium powers are already forced to choose between China and the US, at times. If they are forced to make another hard choice between China and Japan, that's dynamiting regional stability.

Let's not miss out on the bigger picture.

The only real winner from China-Japan discord is and will be the United States. Just as it plays the sectarian politics in the Middle East and ensure hegemony there, it will more and more play the historical-baggage politics in East Asia to legitimate its illegitimate military dominance and keep everyone in check, including their mutual development prospects.

There is really very little to gain for China (as much as for Japan) from a stubborn enmity with Japan. Both sides will need to become more open-hearted in terms of grievances and won't have the need to resort to historical revisionism to heal wounds. Rather, in an open-hearted way, we need to talk about past, but also plan and be very excited about future while making the best from the present time.

In that regard, I commend @Arryn , @Nihonjin1051 , @Shotgunner51 and the likes' efforts and high-spirit in promoting and academically arguing about East Asian integration and a Pan-Asianist agenda. Geo and politics push China and Japan together; resisting the natural forces of greater unity will only create atrophy.
 
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When the japanese are cozying up to all of our OPPOSITIONS NOW - Vietnam, Philippines, Tsai IW, India USA
When the japanese is supporting all of our OPPOSITIONS even on forums
When the japanese is sprouting the spirits of imperialism when they see a crack in every way possible
When the japanese is still denying many of their wrong doings in their history books
When the japanese is chanting "collapse of China" 24/7 in their publications and media
When the japanese is still refusing to admit Diaoyu Islands are in DISPUTE
--- now tell me who is in the wrong of not promoting a more cordial relationship?
--- now tell me what is the definition of pragmatism?

Over 90% of our netizens wanted japan to move away from us.
Over 90% of our netizens were doing the right thing

The ONUS is on japan - the japanese!

images

,


I for myself want to be "cautiously optimistic," my friend, and this is again for the sake of the greater good for the nation and the region.

My worry is that we will be forced to spend our energy way too much on dealing with regional nuisances, and will be weakened to face the ultimate enemy, the US. That's why I am proposing regional tranquility to be better prepared for the ultimate showdown.

The harm the US inflicts on China's interests at the moment is way larger than Japan can ever do in modern times (if we ever considered Japan would have such an intention). Then we need to make the calculation. Even Japan's relevance is not entirely divorced from the US presence. Take out the US from the regional equation, the rest will fall like dominoes.

This is my reasoning. Of course, one can also take up @+4vsgorillas-Apebane stand, and argue that China will move on with region is in peace or not. Although I believe China is very capable now, I would still like to have another decade of window of opportunity for China to really complete the national rejuvenation project.

And without an absolute unification across the Straits, rejuvenation is always incomplete.
 
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When the japanese are cozying up to all of our OPPOSITIONS NOW - Vietnam, Philippines, Tsai IW, India USA
When the japanese is supporting all of our OPPOSITIONS even on forums
When the japanese is sprouting the spirits of imperialism when they see a crack in every way possible
When the japanese is still denying many of their wrong doings in their history books
When the japanese is chanting "collapse of China" 24/7 in their publications and media
When the japanese is still refusing to admit Diaoyu Islands are in DISPUTE
--- now tell me who is in the wrong of not promoting a more cordial relationship?
--- now tell me what is the definition of pragmatism?

Over 90% of our netizens wanted japan to move away from us.
Over 90% of our netizens were doing the right thing

The ONUS is on japan - the japanese!

images

,
I for myself want to be "cautiously optimistic," my friend, and this is again for the sake of the greater good for the nation and the region.

My worry is that we will be forced to spend our energy way to much on dealing with regional nuisances, and will be weakened to face the ultimate enemy, the US. That's why I am proposing regional tranquility to be better prepared for the ultimate showdown.

The harm the US inflicts on China's interests is way larger than Japan can ever do in modern times. Then we need to make the calculation. Even Japan's relevance is not entirely divorced from the US presence. Take out the US from the regional equation, the rest will fall like dominoes.

This is my reasoning. Of course, one can also take up @+4vsgorillas-Apebane stand, and argue that China will move on with region is in peace or not. Although I believe China is very capable now, I would still like to have another decade of window of opportunity for China to really complete the national rejuvenation project.

And without an absolute unification across the Straits, rejuvenation is always incomplete.
I agree with this. My only concern is how to take out USA from Japan, they won't give up Japan without a fight. We all know Japanese Prime Minister, who is pro-china, step down quickly, like the 2012 incident of Diaoyutai Islands which is not a fault of Noda's government, but the right wing ex-Tokyo mayor wanted to buy the islands. Also Abe was once a pro china prime minister in his first term, and now he does whatever the USA asked in order to stay in power. In order to build a unified East Asian block, we need Japan's support, but without an independent Japan this is hard to achieve.
 
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I agree with this. My only concern is how to take out USA from Japan, they won't give up Japan without a fight. We all know Japanese Prime Minister, who is pro-china, step down quickly, like the 2012 incident of Diaoyutai Islands which is not a fault of Noda's government, but the right wing ex-Tokyo mayor wanted to buy the islands. Also Abe was once a pro china prime minister in his first term, and now he does whatever the USA asked in order to stay in power. In order to build a unified East Asian block, we need Japan's support, but without an independent Japan this is hard to achieve.

I guess it (taken out the US factor) has to happen organically. That's why I am inclined to @Nihonjin1051 's proposal of incrementally deepening cooperation on all fronts, first, of course, exploring and exploiting the strengths we both have, that is economy.

A more interdependent China-Japan on all fronts might translate into a less interdependent Japan-US especially on the security (-as well as economic-) front.

Like you said, Japan does not lack wise and visionary politicians like Hatoyama and (previously) Abe, but there seems to be certain powers that override than Japan's sovereign decision making capability at times.

What would we gain if we simply put the blame on Japan for something it has little control over? The optimum rational choice would be to exploit and undermine those forces that keep Japan in check in modern times from initiating better policies with China on equal basis.
 
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I guess it (taken out the US factor) has to happen organically. That's why I am inclined to @Nihonjin1051 's proposal of incrementally deepening cooperation on all fronts, first, of course, exploring and exploiting the strengths we both have, that is economy.

A more interdependent China-Japan on all front might translate into a less interdependent Japan-US (especially on the security -as well as economic- front).

Like you said, Japan does not lack wise and visionary politicians like Hatoyama and (previously) Abe, but there seems to be certain powers that are bigger than Japan's sovereign decision making at times.

What would we gain if we simply put the blame on Japan for something it has little control over? The optimum rational choice would be to exploit and undermine those powers that keep Japan in check in modern times from initiating better policies with China on equal basis.
Your post really inspire me to rethink our relationship with Japan and provide more insight on how to build a better diplomacy with them. Good post.
 
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Well you guys have been at each others throats for a long time. It didn't serve the west much 150 years ago so who are you going to point as the "chief benefactor" back then...Korea maybe? You gotta be kidding me. So the "it only serves so-and-so" thing is about as far from being part of the core problem as saying bad economic planning in the US only serves Pakistan's interests (say what??).


Buddy ,

The United States' prime foreign affairs strategy is centered on hegemony over the pacific , which is the springboard from which she is to exert and interject her influence into the Asian mainland, particularly in reference to East Asia, and Southeast Asia (continental & insular). Prior to the onset of the Pacific War that begun in 1941, the United States actually had a checkered control of the pacific and was largely limited to the Philippines and the Hawaiian Islands. The core of the western and central pacific was under the Japanese Mandate. This domination by Japan in pacific waters as far north as Sakhalin and contiguous waters of the Sea of Okhotsk, as far south as the coast of Papua New Guinea and as far east as Marshall Islands. This was a strategic barrier for the United States, which had always seeked hegemony over the entire pacific from the coast of california to the coastline of Japan & beyond (Korea, China). In fact it is mentioned as part of the American Manifest Destiny and Mandate to be the 'Pre-eminent Pacific Power'.

Let's take a look at the role of Japan and how Japan's Pacific Mandate & Empire had proved an obstacle for American Pacific Hegemonistic designs:

01108-1.jpg


South_Pacific_Mandate_map_in_1930s.PNG


micr19201937.gif



Now, let us fast forward to 2016, this is the extent of America's Pacific Mandate & literal hegemony over the entire expanse of the Great Pacific Ocean:

afrts_map1.jpg



USPACOM_map.png



The key forward deployed bases of the United States' Pacific Command (USFJ; US Forces Japan) and (USFK; US Forces Korea) places close to some 75,000 men in the two countries (53,000 in Japan, and some 25,000 in South Korea). To support this logistic chain, the United States has a secondary island chain that centers in Guam and Palau , and to support that , she maintains a constant VFA with the Philippines and access to 8 major Filipino bases. Has access to Thailand, Vietnam, Bruneian, Indonesian, Indian, Australian and New Zealand ports for strategic resupply and strategic defense partnership(s). If that is not hegemony, my friend, then I don't know what is.

The loss of Korea and Japan to the United States is a breach of US Pacific Command's Mandate and a severe loss of American Domination of the Pacific, which is a core defense "non-negotiable". Since to the American Naval Command Brass, Domination of the Pacific is a "Right" and a hard "won" one -- afterall the United States, particularly the Navy, pride itself in winning the Pacific from the Japanese Empire by rules of war.

American domination is no more different than former European imperial powers who had designed such spheres of influence in the area, centuries ago. The difference? The individual European states of Britain, France, Netherlands, Spain -- did not and does not (still) have the industrial complex and capacity / potential to become a global hyper hegemon like the United States did as it exemplified in the 2nd World War and through her shear economic clout. Had it not been to their limitations, European countries would have hardly rescinded their imperial possessions had it been put down. Afterall did we not see the French and Dutch forces moving back to Cochinchine (French Indochina) and the Dutch Malaccas immediately after the liberation of France and Netherlands from Nazi domination in Europe? Yes they did, and in fact, both (French and Dutch) waged a brutal war of repatriation and attempt at pacifying their colonial possessions for daring to stand up to European supremacy. It was only after (and only) that they were defeated, that they accepted terms of surrender and agreed to granting independence (as if that was their right to give). In the regards to France, however, she merely gave the mantle to the United States after the catastrophic loss in the Battle of Dien Bien Phu , wherein the US took over French area of responsibility. 10 year later and some 55, 000 American lives lost --- then did the US abandon South Vietnam --- and removed its anti-historical role. Then and only then did Vietnam (through the Army of North Viet Nam) become unified again as a nation state. It had been close to a century since Viet Nam was united as an independent nation state (before the French came in and imposed their suzereignty).

Compare that to the situation in Korea. In fact Korea is divided still and is similar to how both Viet Nam was divided into North and South Viet Nam some 60 years ago. So long as the US is in South Korea, there can be no unification (since a unification might undermine US interests and influence in the region, which clearly the US does not want to lose, its simply contradictive to American strategic global interests; we are afterall talking about a hegemon here). The same, i suppose, in regards to Japan. So long as Japan remains a "host" to American military forces (some 53,000) , there can be no independent foreign policy. And Japan's foreign policy directives will remain under the surveillance and influence of American political machination(s).



Regards.
Kenji.

You gotta be kidding me. So the "it only serves so-and-so" thing is about as far from being part of the core problem as saying bad economic planning in the US only serves Pakistan's interests (say what??).

The latter comparison and correlation does not make sense, and does not come close to describing the vital interest of Korea and Japan to USNPC's mandate. In fact this mandate is the very pillar upon which various strategies and contingency plans have been built on.
 
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Sure Japan will always welcome to be China's friend, when you guys can "去暗投明" and don't just be manipulated by other nation against China. We share similar cultures there is no point for Chinese and Japanese to knife throwing at each other for eternity.

...that's my person opinion.
 
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It was when China was strong and powerful. For the sake of peace, pray China to be strong and powerful.
 
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It was when China was strong and powerful. For the sake of peace, pray China to be strong and powerful.

To be powerful, we need something like 商鞅变法 during qin dynasty to sophisticate china's government civilian and military organization.
 
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