When Indian subcontinent became literate?

[Nasr]

i gave you thumbs up for the first part but had to take it back after reading your second part which is gross stupidity, i dont think we should become another India by having complete BAN on entertainment and art coming from other neighbors. remember we are not indians as you said in the first part, we are Pakistanis and we are free to choose what and how we want to be. as popular thought that few bollywood movies have changed Pakistanis thinking, its totally wrong as still Pakistanis are more Pakistanis and have never seen a single Pakistani who loves India as a country (there are majority of Pakistanis who dont even hate Indian common poor people as we know that its Indian govt which is evil not people). Pakistan still have a distinct culture and fashion which is becoming widely popular in India and ME due to Pakistani TV and Media.

For decades, Pakistanis have languished like a bunch of mindless buffoons, influenced by bollywood filth. Losing our identity and forgetting who we really are. Banning bollywood/hollywood and all other indian/zionist-western entertainment is pivotal in cleansing Pakistani society. It is time to throw that box of garbage called tv out of our homes and begin establishing a real connection with Islam. Becoming who we are as good Muslims. Without Islam, we are nothing, without Islam, there is no Pakistan.

You can continue to slave before what you refer to as entertainment, it is not. It is poison that infects and destroys the human mind.

Ban all indian media in Pakistan, become good Muslims, bring about change in Pakistan to give real education to our children. Grasp the relations with the rest of the Muslim world. Have people to people connection with Iran, Afghanistan, China, Yemen, Malaysia, Algeria and the Central Asian Republics.

Continue to support the free flow of indian media poison in Pakistani homes and watch the further hollowing out of the Pakistani mindset. Don't live in a fool's paradise, it will give you nothing but emptiness.

 

[BL33D]

For decades, Pakistanis have languished like a bunch of mindless buffoons, influenced by bollywood filth. Losing our identity and forgetting who we really are. Banning bollywood/hollywood and all other indian/zionist-western entertainment is pivotal in cleansing Pakistani society. It is time to throw that box of garbage called tv out of our homes and begin establishing a real connection with Islam. Becoming who we are as good Muslims. Without Islam, we are nothing, without Islam, there is no Pakistan.

You can continue to slave before what you refer to as entertainment, it is not. It is poison that infects and destroys the human mind.

Ban all indian media in Pakistan, become good Muslims, bring about change in Pakistan to give real education to our children. Grasp the relations with the rest of the Muslim world. Have people to people connection with Iran, Afghanistan, China, Yemen, Malaysia, Algeria and the Central Asian Republics.

Continue to support the free flow of indian media poison in Pakistani homes and watch the further hollowing out of the Pakistani mindset. Don't live in a fool's paradise, it will give you nothing but emptiness.

Mentioning Indian subcontinent is not going to take away your Pakistani Uniqueness or Culture. Or trying to distance yourself from Indian roots will not make you Arab. Whats real is real. No need to feel cornered by it. You are a different country now. But you had a history with India, so dont erase it just becoz you dont like it. Its necessary for historians and experts who study it, maybe not ordinary people.
BTW the discussion is different. Its about the historicity of literacy in Sub-Continent. Focus on that.

 

[Baby Leone]

For decades, Pakistanis have languished like a bunch of mindless buffoons, influenced by bollywood filth. Losing our identity and forgetting who we really are. Banning bollywood/hollywood and all other indian/zionist-western entertainment is pivotal in cleansing Pakistani society. It is time to throw that box of garbage called tv out of our homes and begin establishing a real connection with Islam. Becoming who we are as good Muslims. Without Islam, we are nothing, without Islam, there is no Pakistan.

You can continue to slave before what you refer to as entertainment, it is not. It is poison that infects and destroys the human mind.

Ban all indian media in Pakistan, become good Muslims, bring about change in Pakistan to give real education to our children. Grasp the relations with the rest of the Muslim world. Have people to people connection with Iran, Afghanistan, China, Yemen, Malaysia, Algeria and the Central Asian Republics.

Continue to support the free flow of indian media poison in Pakistani homes and watch the further hollowing out of the Pakistani mindset. Don't live in a fool's paradise, it will give you nothing but emptiness.

when are you shifting to caves and using camels and horses instead of cars?

P.S: i dont watch indian entertainment nor i follow them but banning something is really funny and is like giving something attention which it doesn't deserve

i can understand Pakistanis feel ashamed of their connection with India considering pathetic situation in modern india but we need to understand that what indians spread as indian culture was actually born in modern day Pakistan and we should own this the way we should own our central asian and Arab heritage.

 

[Hamza913]

we should own our central asian and Arab heritage.

We have no significant Arab heritage.

 

[SABRE]

Literacy has been thought to have originated in indian subcontinent during ashoka period when allegedly iranian influenced arahmaic script gave birth to brahmi and kharoshti scripts in the region. Some scholars also question the literate nature of indus valley civilization and propose that indus script worked in non literate way like traffic signals rather than conveying thoughts and statements etc.

Yet the presence of Vedic texts, panini texts etc challenge this hypothesis of the origin of south asian literacy influenced by persians and the greeks. Panini text has been considered too complicated to have been orally memorized just like vedic texts, scholars think that oral memorization of vedic texts couldn't have preserved the text it is today and it was sure to have been written down for its integrity to have been maintained the way it is today. We also have earlier presence of urbanization, coins etc which seem to indicate a very complicated society. It is also proposed that the empire built by chandragupta maurya had no literacy and no literate means of operating such a vast and diverse empire which appears quite impossible.

I have come across some artifacts which potentially debunk this theory, but i want to know the opinion of the members here. When do you think literacy originate in south asia?

regards

Hmm. You are stirring storm in a teacup, my friend.

Chandragupta Maurya's period coincides with Chanakya, who is known to have established the first university in the world. In fact, Chanakya (also known as Kautilya and Vishnugupta) is said to have been responsible for installing Maurya as the king. If Chanakya's university did exist then not only basic literacy existed but higher education as well and therefore formal writing text(s) as well. But, keeping the popular perception aside, there are arguments that raise questions on Chankya's existence, or whether Chanakya, Kautilya, and Vishnugupta are the same or different people. The Edicts of Ashoka (Chandragupta Maurya's infamous grandson) nonetheless proves that there was a written script. But widespread use of symbols during and before the period instead of the textual script could mean a lack of formal literacy amongst the ordinary citizens.

My theory is that from ancient to medieval times literacy and education were luxuries limited to elites, which included the ruling classes, noble classes, and the religious clerics. Since the ruling and noble classes spent most of the time at warfare it was mainly the religious clerics and their students/subordinates who mostly appear to commanded the literary/education sector. This mostly appears true in the case of Greater Southern Asia. Thus, ancient religious texts survived in one form or the other. This is especially true for India where ancient scripts have survived as opposed to Europe where we have not seen any official religious scripture prior to the arrival of Christianity. But even with the advent of Christianity in Europe, you would see that the Church was more educated than the rulers. European monarchs in medieval times appointed Church officials or religious scholars/students for official documentation as they themselves were neither able to read nor write.

This is not to say that there were no non-religious philosophical and even scientific thoughts during these ages. However, the monopolization or limitation of literacy and education to elite and religious classes would mean that the wider population was illiterate in terms of having a formal education (as it is still common amongst South Asians). Thus, simple symbols appear more popular to establish communication then formal writing texts.

While we are on the subject, Sanskrit survives today due to the efforts of a handful of individuals from medieval India, especially because of one man who the Hindus (& Sikhs ... & some or many Muslims as well) love to hate. That is the Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb. He was an avid student of ancient Indian literature. Mahabharata in perticular was an important part of the curriculum that the Mughal princes had to study during Shahjahan's times or perhaps even before him. During his rule he took initiative to preserve the language.

 

[Nasr]

when are you shifting to caves and using camels and horses instead of cars?

P.S: i dont watch indian entertainment nor i follow them but banning something is really funny and is like giving something attention which it doesn't deserve

i can understand Pakistanis feel ashamed of their connection with India considering pathetic situation in modern india but we need to understand that what indians spread as indian culture was actually born in modern day Pakistan and we should own this the way we should own our central asian and Arab heritage.

The only thing that you have as a Pakistani, is Islam ... without that, you may just as well be one of them. If you think that

Mentioning Indian subcontinent is not going to take away your Pakistani Uniqueness or Culture. Or trying to distance yourself from Indian roots will not make you Arab. Whats real is real. No need to feel cornered by it. You are a different country now. But you had a history with India, so dont erase it just becoz you dont like it. Its necessary for historians and experts who study it, maybe not ordinary people.
BTW the discussion is different. Its about the historicity of literacy in Sub-Continent. Focus on that.

It is the tiny things which seem insignificant, but chip away at your identity. That is how this works, failure to understand the working of the enemy is why Pakistani nation fails to identify itself.

 

[W.11]

But widespread use of symbols during and before the period instead of the textual script could mean a lack of formal literacy amongst the ordinary citizens.

yes, literacy may not be widespread in ancient times, but it was the same all around the world.

some art depictions which show children with ''takhti'' learning their letters etc provide evidence of widespread education btw.

regards

 

[Chhatrapati]

Chandragupta Maurya's period coincides with Chanakya, who is known to have established the first university in the world. In fact, Chanakya (also known as Kautilya and Vishnugupta) is said to have been responsible for installing Maurya as the king. If Chanakya's university did exist then not only basic literacy existed but higher education as well and therefore formal writing text(s) as well. But, keeping the popular perception aside, there are arguments that raise questions on Chankya's existence, or whether Chanakya, Kautilya, and Vishnugupta are the same or different people. The Edicts of Ashoka (Chandragupta Maurya's infamous grandson) nonetheless proves that there was a written script. But widespread use of symbols during and before the period instead of the textual script could mean a lack of formal literacy amongst the ordinary citizens.

Chanakya didn't establish Takshashila (taxila) university he was just another student. I wonder how Ashoka became infamous according to you. He's well respected across the world. Seals or symbols may not be in a literal sense, it maybe even seals of different clans.

My theory is that from ancient to medieval times literacy and education were luxuries limited to elites, which included the ruling classes, noble classes, and the religious clerics. Since the ruling and noble classes spent most of the time at warfare it was mainly the religious clerics and their students/subordinates who mostly appear to commanded the literary/education sector. This mostly appears true in the case of Greater Southern Asia. Thus, ancient religious texts survived in one form or the other. This is especially true for India where ancient scripts have survived as opposed to Europe where we have not seen any official religious scripture prior to the arrival of Christianity. But even with the advent of Christianity in Europe, you would see that the Church was more educated than the rulers. European monarchs in medieval times appointed Church officials or religious scholars/students for official documentation as they themselves were neither able to read nor write.

That I concur, more like in those times there was no need for a formal education like in the modern sense. Reading, writing etc... wasn't something considered elitist in the subcontinent and it was left for main three classes, merchants, rulers, teachers/priests.

While we are on the subject, Sanskrit survives today due to the efforts of a handful of individuals from medieval India, especially because of one man who the Hindus (& Sikhs ... & some or many Muslims as well) love to hate. That is the Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb. He was an avid student of ancient Indian literature. Mahabharata in perticular was an important part of the curriculum that the Mughal princes had to study during Shahjahan's times or perhaps even before him. During his rule he took initiative to preserve the language.

haha right, Aurangzeb preserved temples too. We all know that history.
Sanskrit was never, throughout it's known history, a major spoken language and it never needed a savior. It was language of the Vedas and Upanishads otoh it was (is) spoken in some parts of India, it never gained any momentum as a widely spoken language. Sanskrit survive today because there was elaborate books written in them that are in regular use. Say Vedas, Upanishads, Gita, Ramayana, Mahabharata and so on.
More than Aurangzeb, Akbar was the one who had interest in Indian philosophies which resulted in him creating a new religion called Deen i llahi, a hybrid religion.

 

[SABRE]

Chanakya didn't establish Takshashila (taxila) university he was just another student. I wonder how Ashoka became infamous according to you. He's well respected across the world. Seals or symbols may not be in a literal sense, it maybe even seals of different clans.

I always thought he founded the Taxila University. I guess I should grasp the opportunity and read up more about him.

I meant famous but in the 'heat of typing' wrote infamous and didn't pay attention to it. Thanks for the correction. Though, it is said he did have his elder half-brother killed to become the empror.

That I concur, more like in those times there was no need for a formal education like in the modern sense. Reading, writing etc... wasn't something considered elitist in the subcontinent and it was left for main three classes, merchants, rulers, teachers/priests.

Exactly. In the case of Indian sub-continent some youth of the ruling classes did attain education but largely there seems to be a disconnect.

haha right, Aurangzeb preserved temples too. We all know that history.
Sanskrit was never, throughout it's known history, a major spoken language and it never needed a savior. It was language of the Vedas and Upanishads otoh it was (is) spoken in some parts of India, it never gained any momentum as a widely spoken language. Sanskrit survive today because there was elaborate books written in them that are in regular use. Say Vedas, Upanishads, Gita, Ramayana, Mahabharata and so on.
More than Aurangzeb, Akbar was the one who had interest in Indian philosophies which resulted in him creating a new religion called Deen i llahi, a hybrid religion.

I knew I was going to step on someone's nerves. Read Audrey Truschke's book on Aurangzeb, though I think she doesn't sit well with the Indians now days.

 

[-blitzkrieg-]

There is no such thing as an "Indian Sub-Continent" and the term "Sub-Continent" is nothing more than bull$hit invented by those sw!ine british colonialists to accord themselves a higher degree of importance in their quest to stomp out the Russian Empire in Central Asia. Pakistanis should know better that so long as you keep parroting these terms such as "Indian Sub-Continent," "South Asia," "Partition," or even "Sub-Continent," you will always at a disadvantage in any argument. Stop using such absurd terms like a bunch of idiots. Know that you are Pakistani, know that you are Muslim and that you closest in affinity, are your fellow Muslims (Arabs, Persians, Central Asians, Turks, Egyptians, Algerians, Moroccans, Sudanese, Somalians and Indonesians. Not India!

Learn to emphasize the fact that Pakistan would rather be part of Central Asia, than "south asia." Pakistan should have Arabic, Persian and Turkic languages made mandatory in schools. Pakistan should have all indian movies, music, cable-tv or any media, comprehensively and permanently BANNED. Starve and exterminate this disease of bollywood that afflicts Pakistanis. It is time to be Pakistani, more importantly, it is time to become a MUSLIM!

Thanks for that post , I have been thinking of putting this as a new thread.
I keep telling this to my friends.. same for the word 'desi'... We are not Desi.. we are just paks.

 

[Chhatrapati]

I always thought he founded the Taxila University. I guess I should grasp the opportunity and read up more about him.

I meant famous but in the 'heat of typing' wrote infamous and didn't pay attention to it. Thanks for the correction. Though, it is said he did have his elder half-brother killed to become the empror.

Taxila was a centre of learning from the time of Mahajapadas. Don't know who exactly established a university there or it should be called a university. It probably is an ancient Gurukula.

I knew I was going to step on someone's nerves. Read Audrey Truschke's book on Aurangzeb, though I think she doesn't sit well with the Indians now days.

I have no qualms with Aurangzeb or any Mughals, they never ruled where I live so I have no feeling of discontent with their rule when it comes to me personally. I have read her op'ed on how Aurangzeb was not people make him out to be. Maybe, but I'm not going to agree to the view on Sanskrit, which you should read again, or I'll repeat, in it's history was never a major spoken language read up the other reasons I have mentioned. So, if someone claims to be the one who saved Sanskrit from extinction, it is an eyeroll moment. Not sure why Aurangzeb is venerated, he is the one who actually ended this Sanskrit learning from Mughal courts and replaced it with Hindavi.
Language spoken at the time was medieval Prakrit, later modified with Persian words and called Hindavi. Predecessor of Hindi and Urdu.