When Indian subcontinent became literate?

[W.11]

Literacy has been thought to have originated in indian subcontinent during ashoka period when allegedly iranian influenced arahmaic script gave birth to brahmi and kharoshti scripts in the region. Some scholars also question the literate nature of indus valley civilization and propose that indus script worked in non literate way like traffic signals rather than conveying thoughts and statements etc.

Yet the presence of Vedic texts, panini texts etc challenge this hypothesis of the origin of south asian literacy influenced by persians and the greeks. Panini text has been considered too complicated to have been orally memorized just like vedic texts, scholars think that oral memorization of vedic texts couldn't have preserved the text it is today and it was sure to have been written down for its integrity to have been maintained the way it is today. We also have earlier presence of urbanization, coins etc which seem to indicate a very complicated society. It is also proposed that the empire built by chandragupta maurya had no literacy and no literate means of operating such a vast and diverse empire which appears quite impossible.

I have come across some artifacts which potentially debunk this theory, but i want to know the opinion of the members here. When do you think literacy originate in south asia?

regards

 

[kris]

What's literacy for you?
How according to you will it bein past?

 

[W.11]

What's literacy for you?
How according to you will it bein past?

literacy for me in written text/language, i didn't understand your 2nd statement.

regards

 

[Vapnope]

@W.11
There are clues that Buddhists monasteries were among the earlier University like institutions in Taxilla. Here are two links for further reading.
Excerpt from one article,
//
The ancient city was revered as having one of the world's first universities and flourished during the 1st to 5th centuries CE as part of the civilization of Gandhara under various rulers. A variety of subjects were taught there, including mathematics, sciences, philosophy, astronomy, medicine, politics, literature and military sciences although it was not an institutionalised center of learning but rather a combination of religious plus secular studies centered around monasteries.

Situated on "The Royal Highway" (as termed by the Greek Megasthenes) It was connected to Pataliputra (modern day Patna) in the north eastern reaches of the Mauryan Empire, western Asia (through Bactria), across the Indus River at Hund and through Kashmir with Central Asia by way of Srinagar, leading down to Haripur. This allowed a steady influx of people from all over the Asiatic regions into the area in the form of traders, settlers, merchants, preachers and invaders.//
https://www.ancient.eu/taxila/
https://www.ancient-origins.net/anc...erusalem-and-alexandria-buddhist-world-008280

 

[Nasr]

There is no such thing as an "Indian Sub-Continent" and the term "Sub-Continent" is nothing more than bull$hit invented by those sw!ine british colonialists to accord themselves a higher degree of importance in their quest to stomp out the Russian Empire in Central Asia. Pakistanis should know better that so long as you keep parroting these terms such as "Indian Sub-Continent," "South Asia," "Partition," or even "Sub-Continent," you will always at a disadvantage in any argument. Stop using such absurd terms like a bunch of idiots. Know that you are Pakistani, know that you are Muslim and that you closest in affinity, are your fellow Muslims (Arabs, Persians, Central Asians, Turks, Egyptians, Algerians, Moroccans, Sudanese, Somalians and Indonesians. Not India!

Learn to emphasize the fact that Pakistan would rather be part of Central Asia, than "south asia." Pakistan should have Arabic, Persian and Turkic languages made mandatory in schools. Pakistan should have all indian movies, music, cable-tv or any media, comprehensively and permanently BANNED. Starve and exterminate this disease of bollywood that afflicts Pakistanis. It is time to be Pakistani, more importantly, it is time to become a MUSLIM!

 

[Baby Leone]

There is no such thing as an "Indian Sub-Continent" and the term "Sub-Continent" is nothing more than bull$hit invented by those sw!ine british colonialists to accord themselves a higher degree of importance in their quest to stomp out the Russian Empire in Central Asia. Pakistanis should know better that so long as you keep parroting these terms such as "Indian Sub-Continent," "South Asia," "Partition," or even "Sub-Continent," you will always at a disadvantage in any argument. Stop using such absurd terms like a bunch of idiots. Know that you are Pakistani, know that you are Muslim and that you closest in affinity, are your fellow Muslims (Arabs, Persians, Central Asians, Turks, Egyptians, Algerians, Moroccans, Sudanese, Somalians and Indonesians. Not India!

Learn to emphasize the fact that Pakistan would rather be part of Central Asia, than "south asia." Pakistan should have Arabic, Persian and Turkic languages made mandatory in schools. Pakistan should have all indian movies, music, cable-tv or any media, comprehensively and permanently BANNED. Starve and exterminate this disease of bollywood that afflicts Pakistanis. It is time to be Pakistani, more importantly, it is time to become a MUSLIM!

i gave you thumbs up for the first part but had to take it back after reading your second part which is gross stupidity, i dont think we should become another India by having complete BAN on entertainment and art coming from other neighbors. remember we are not indians as you said in the first part, we are Pakistanis and we are free to choose what and how we want to be. as popular thought that few bollywood movies have changed Pakistanis thinking, its totally wrong as still Pakistanis are more Pakistanis and have never seen a single Pakistani who loves India as a country (there are majority of Pakistanis who dont even hate Indian common poor people as we know that its Indian govt which is evil not people). Pakistan still have a distinct culture and fashion which is becoming widely popular in India and ME due to Pakistani TV and Media.

 

[Jackdaws]

Literacy in ancient times was omnipresent through Universities like Nalanda, Taxila, Vikramashila etc.

However, the access to such Universities was restricted to the priests and warrior class. The under classes which formed a bulk of the population didn't have access to easy education. But they were mostly trained as craftsmen, not in the arts and sciences.

 

[Srinivas]

Literacy has been thought to have originated in indian subcontinent during ashoka period when allegedly iranian influenced arahmaic script gave birth to brahmi and kharoshti scripts in the region. Some scholars also question the literate nature of indus valley civilization and propose that indus script worked in non literate way like traffic signals rather than conveying thoughts and statements etc.

Yet the presence of Vedic texts, panini texts etc challenge this hypothesis of the origin of south asian literacy influenced by persians and the greeks. Panini text has been considered too complicated to have been orally memorized just like vedic texts, scholars think that oral memorization of vedic texts couldn't have preserved the text it is today and it was sure to have been written down for its integrity to have been maintained the way it is today. We also have earlier presence of urbanization, coins etc which seem to indicate a very complicated society. It is also proposed that the empire built by chandragupta maurya had no literacy and no literate means of operating such a vast and diverse empire which appears quite impossible.

I have come across some artifacts which potentially debunk this theory, but i want to know the opinion of the members here. When do you think literacy originate in south asia?

regards

No Iranian influence is not related to Sanskrit, these are indigenous to India. Example ‘sa’ is not there in Iranian scripts. The Saraswati river in India is called as haraixwati in Iran.

Similarly seven is called as Saptha in Sanskrit and hapta in persia.

Iranian languages are inspired by India.

 

[Chhatrapati]

Yet the presence of Vedic texts, panini texts etc challenge this hypothesis of the origin of south asian literacy influenced by persians and the greeks. Panini text has been considered too complicated to have been orally memorized just like vedic texts, scholars think that oral memorization of vedic texts couldn't have preserved the text it is today and it was sure to have been written down for its integrity to have been maintained the way it is today. We also have earlier presence of urbanization, coins etc which seem to indicate a very complicated society. It is also proposed that the empire built by chandragupta maurya had no literacy and no literate means of operating such a vast and diverse empire which appears quite impossible.

Panini texts is too complicated to be oral tradition. Evidences from his own works suggest there was in fact writing as his works mentions scripts and sculptures. But Vedas were Oral tradition, mainly because even today people who learn vedas do not read rather learn from a teacher who recite it because phonetics and stressing of words and tones are prevalent in Vedas. So, reading vedas in sanskrit and reciting it is two different things. Without learning the oral form (refer 'Chandas'), it's pointless.

To maintain integrity, the Vedas got divided and let a group learn one section of Vedas. Say one or more groups learn Rig Veda and transmit it, another would learn Yajur and so on.
You can't apply literacy in modern sense to those times. Chandragupta could really read because he was trained by kautilya.

 

[kris]

literacy for me in written text/language, i didn't understand your 2nd statement.

regards

In India any person who can read and write is considered literate untill few years ago. Not sure now
What criteria is set to call past people as literate?

 

[kris]

even if vedas stressed oral learning, how can it be discerned when the vedic texts were written, according to some scholars vedic texts were taugt in taxila etc, so when were the vedas written down? Quran is also memorized and also written down, its in poetic form so that it can be easily memorized.

Vedas were written down at end of Kaliyuga nearly 5000 years ago

 

[W.11]

Panini texts is too complicated to be oral tradition. Evidences from his own works suggest there was in fact writing as his works mentions scripts and sculptures. But Vedas were Oral tradition, mainly because even today people who learn vedas do not read rather learn from a teacher who recite it because phonetics and stressing of words and tones are prevalent in Vedas. So, reading vedas in sanskrit and reciting it is two different things. Without learning the oral form (refer 'Chandas'), it's pointless.

To maintain integrity, the Vedas got divided and let a group learn one section of Vedas. Say one or more groups learn Rig Veda and transmit it, another would learn Yajur and so on.
You can't apply literacy in modern sense to those times. Chandragupta could really read because he was trained by kautilya.

even if vedas stressed oral learning, how can it be discerned when the vedic texts were written, according to some scholars vedic texts were taugt in taxila etc, so when were the vedas written down? Quran is also memorized and also written down, its in poetic form so that it can be easily memorized.

 

[Chhatrapati]

even if vedas stressed oral learning, how can it be discerned when the vedic texts were written, according to some scholars vedic texts were taugt in taxila etc, so when were the vedas written down? Quran is also memorized and also written down, its in poetic form so that it can be easily memorized.

It's my disagreement with the assertion that Vedas could've been written first. Nope, they were an Oral tradition. It got written later, maybe around the time of Mahajanapadas. Can't compare it with Quran which is quite modern in that sense, I wonder why it wasn't written when there was an elaborate writing system.

 

[W.11]

It's my disagreement with the assertion that Vedas could've been written first. Nope, they were an Oral tradition. It got written later, maybe around the time of Mahajanapadas. Can't compare it with Quran which is quite modern in that sense, I wonder why it wasn't written when there was an elaborate writing system.

that is my entire point, we cannot tell when vedas were actually written, the assertion that they were written during mahajanapada period not before is just a conjecture, according to the western scholars, they couldn't have been written before ashoka, since ashokan brahmi is the first attested script in indian subcontinent along with kharoshti and that during ashoka the arahmaic was moulded into brahmi. Pre Ashokan brahmi is also attested btw is some meager evidences

But there are evidences of literacy in copper hoard culture, and a very curious artifact has been discovered from that era and has been declared as proto brahmi.

Not only vedas but lots of other texts like brahmanas, upanishad, sulbasutra etc have been composed so my analysis is, vedas were written and literacy was present since CHC.

regards

 

[B.K.N]

Subcontinent hasn't become literate till this day
who knows about future