When Hitler "refused" to defeat Britain

[Psychic]

"A lost victory" - Field Marshall Erich Von Manstein​

Background
After conquering Poland in the East, the German forces were poised for "Fall Gelb"-an offensive in the West. It started on the dawn of May 10 1940 when the German airborne troops landed in Belgium and Netherlands to secure key bridges.
The surprise attack on France would come from the wooded Ardennes in Belgium where the French least expected it. On May 12, the German forces were at the Franco-Belgian border and their un stoppable advance deep inside France started. Paul Von Kliest's forces broke through the French defenses into the open country, turning Westward in the direction of English channel.

General Heinz Guderian's panzers on the advance - France 1940​

"Dunkrik pocket"
General Heinz Guderian's panzers(tanks) had advanced way ahead than the slow infantry in pursuit of the allies. This made his superior Kliest and even Hitler worried that without infantry support, the panzers were vulnerable so despite Guderian's protests, he was ordered to halt on May 15 and again on May 17 which invited counter attacks from the allies but none came as the allies were too exhausted and low on morale. Despite these two delays, Guderian's panzers reached the town of Abbeville on the English channel thus splitting the allies in two, with the experienced 140,000 French and the pre war trained 198,000 troops of the British expedetionary force (BEF) trapped in what later came to be known as "Dunkrik pocket".

With their backs to the wall, the British mounted a brave and successful counter attack on Rommel's panzers at Arras on May 21 confusing him about the actual number of the British troops involved in the attack. Nevertheless, the attack failed to materialise as the French counter attack in another sector failed to supplement the temporary victory at Arras but the British attack did delay Rommel's lightening advance.

Finally, the German forces were poised to deliver a deadly blow to the British at Dunkirk by killing or capturing most of the remnants of BEF. Nothing less of a miracle could now save the BEF whose only hope of survival was to evacuate using the port of Dunkrik. The British had already started gathering every available ship, merchant vessel and fisher boat to help pull it's trapped troops out.

Hitler snatches defeat from the jaws of victory
Ready to pounce on their prey, German forces crossed the canal defence line at Dunkrik on May 24. Kliest had his prey cornered. He burned to advance and bag it when an inexplicable order from none other than Hitler himself not only halted the advance but called the German forces back to the line!

This order to halt the advance put an end to any realistic hope to defeat Britain. From May 26 to June 4, the British thus evacuated their men along with more than one hundred thousand French soldiers to England. Although the British managed to save their men but they had to leave most of their heavy equipment behind.

'Operation Dynamo' was the British code name of the evacuation of Dunkrik​

Why Hitler halted the advance?
Although there are many theories about it but this is not explainable why Hitler allowed enemy soldiers to escape. Many say that he did so because before giving orders to halt the advance, Hitler was convinced by Herman Goering, the commander in chief of the Luftwaffe(Air force) that his aircraft could destroy the British at Dunkrik. His bombers hit the port of Dunkrik but the smoke rising from the destroyed port screened the evacuating British from any attack by the Luftwaffe thus making the job to provide air cover easier for the Royal Air Force (RAF).

Some also believe that Hitler also wanted to impose his peace terms on British by allowing their forces an escape so that it may not provoke them to resist at all costs.

From:
Military history, facts, tactics and more: When Hitler missed an opportunity to defeat Britian

Related link:
Military history, facts, tactics and more: First glider raid in history of war

@AUSTERLITZ @Slav Defence @Gufi @levina @Desert Fox

 

[Psychic]

@Gauss @!eon @Nihonjin1051 @persona_non_grata @IrbiS @dexter

 

[!eon]

That was not only once but throughout the war, repeatedly victory was snatched from Wehrmacht's hands by Hitler.

It seems in Dunkirk he was still not impressed by Guderian's new ideas of motorized warfare. It was actually Heinz Guderian, who proposed attack through Ardenes before invasion of France. He has written two worth reading books in WW II era.

1. Achtung - Panzer! (Attention, Tank!)
   
2. Panzer leader

 

[untitled]

After the declaration of war there was a period called the phoney war during which only naval skirmish took place in the south atlantic between the allies and the germans

Actual fighting started when the British landed at Narvik, Norway

 

[Indian Patriot]

For Hitler the british were the same aryan race and he was right, both germans and british have the same ethnicity. Moreover the royal house of germany and england had familial ties pre-WW1. During the age when germany did not exist and there was only prussia the germans were the best allies of england. How time changes!!

Germany would have easily won the second world war if only Hitler let his generals fight the war instead of being the walking talking red tape disaster.

 

[SP!TF!R3]

Hitler was convinced by Herman Goering, the commander in chief of the Luftwaffe(Air force) that his aircraft could destroy the British at Dunkrik. His bombers hit the port of Dunkrik but the smoke rising from the destroyed port screened the evacuating British from any attack by the Luftwaffe thus making the job to provide air cover easier for the Royal Air Force (RAF).

wait a second..Luftwaffe didn't have any strategic bomber.in fact,Luftwaffe's achilles heel was their bombers.dive bombers were significantly vulnerable to the RAF Fighters which flew around then.Luftwaffe did bomb and sunk several ships,but it was more likely some kind of back channel understanding which saved those soldiers in Dunkirk.If Germany really tried to make a push,they'd simply crush them.

now the fact...
It was these two Field Marshal's idea...

Günther von Kluge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gerd von Rundstedt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and another major factor was French First Army's action...

Siege of Lille (1940) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[waz]

Hitler was convinced by Herman Goering, the commander in chief of the Luftwaffe(Air force) that his aircraft could destroy the British at Dunkrik.

Most historians agree this was the case.

Anyway, the operation Dynamo i.e. the Dunkirk evacuation.

 

[Desert Fox]

Some also believe that Hitler also wanted to impose his peace terms on British by allowing their forces an escape so that it may not provoke them to resist at all costs.

In order for this to have worked (Hitler imposing his own terms for peace on the British) it should have been the other way around, ie capturing the 300,000 British and French troops as a form of bargaining chip. Knowing that the Germans held some of their finest troops, the Brits would have given greater consideration to peace negotiations. Whatever the reasons were for sparing the British at Dunkirk, they cost Hitler the war.

Hitler was convinced by Herman Goering, the commander in chief of the Luftwaffe(Air force) that his aircraft could destroy the British at Dunkrik.

Most historians agree this was the case.

Not likely for several reasons:

1). Luftwaffe's best attack aircraft the Ju-87's were very slow and vulnerable to allied fighters.

2). Because the Luftwaffe's best fighter at the time, the BF-109E, had to take off from airbases within Germany, by the time it reached the French coast it was only able to engage enemy aircraft and ships for a limited time and thus could not provide adequate fighter coverage to German bombers/attack aircraft.

3). The Germans didn't have enough of the Ju-88 tactical attack/bomber aircraft to inflict significant losses on British shipping, not to mention they were vulnerable to Allied fighters.

One of the biggest disadvantages the Germans had when they entered the war were the lack of heavy, long range, high altitude bombers and a powerful surface and submarine fleet. They would attempt to expand their capabilities towards these areas during the duration of the war but by the time they made any significant gains the war was coming to a close and German defeat was inevitable.

 

[waz]

1). Luftwaffe's best attack aircraft the Ju-87's were very slow and vulnerable to allied fighters.

2). Because the Luftwaffe's best fighter at the time, the BF-109E, had to take off from airbases within Germany, by the time it reached the French coast it was only able to engage enemy aircraft and ships for a limited time and thus could not provide adequate fighter coverage to German bombers/attack aircraft.

3). The Germans didn't have enough of the Ju-88 tactical attack/bomber aircraft to inflict significant losses on British shipping, not to mention they were vulnerable to Allied fighters.

One of the biggest disadvantages the Germans had when they entered the war were the lack of heavy, long range, high altitude bombers and a powerful surface and submarine fleet. They would attempt to expand their capabilities towards these areas during the duration of the war but by that time the war was coming to a close and German defeat was inevitable.

1. There was air cover from the squadrons of Messerschmitt 109's. The RAF, who was providing the air cover wasn't that much of a threat due to the limited time they had over the skies of Dunkirk, due to fuel shortages.

2. French air fields had been captured by the time the BEF was pinned down at Dunkirk. Although there was a limited number of sorties, they would have been sufficient to cause significant loses.

3. Target shipping was just one of the objectives, they only had to hamper efforts and make the rescue not possible to achieve victory.

Beside the technical arguments, Goering was very persuasive and filled Hitler's mind with all sorts of delusions. He was the same man who still insisted that the operation Sea Lion was still possible, even though the Battle of Britain had been won.

 

[Desert Fox]

After the declaration of war there was a period called the phoney war during which only naval skirmish took place in the south atlantic between the allies and the germans

Actual fighting started when the British landed at Narvik, Norway

The British, by violating the territorial integrity of Neutral Norway, gave Hitler the perfect opportunity to land his paratroopers on Norwegian territory as well as launch a seaborne invasion of Norway, which the Germans carried out very cunningly and achieved much success despite their very old and numerically inferior naval capabilities in comparison to what was at the disposal of the Royal Navy.

1. There was air cover from the squadrons of Messerschmitt 109's. The RAF, who was providing the air cover wasn't that much of a threat due to the limited time they had over the skies of Dunkirk, due to fuel shortages.

The RAF had plenty of fuel to keep their fighters in the sky over Dunkirk since their merchant shipping was practically undisturbed this early in the war.

Also, see here the distance between Britain and Dunkirk and Germany and Dukirk:

The Germans had to first take off within Germany itself and then fly over Belgium thus expending most of their fuel along the route, meanwhile the British only needed to cross a narrow strip of water to reach Dunkirk.​

The BF-109E's, the only BF-109 model available to the Luftwaffe at the time had a limited fuel carrying capacity (it was famous for this shortcoming), was taking off from within Germany, using up most of its fuel along the way before making it to the French coast. Thus, due to its limitations it could not engage enemy aircraft or shipping beyond its fuel carrying capacity.

2. French air fields had been captured by the time the BEF was pinned down at Dunkirk. Although there was a limited number of sorties, they would have been sufficient to cause significant loses.

Yes, most French aircraft and this time were destroyed or captured. But there were parts of France unreachable for the luftwaffe, once again due to the range limitations of their fighter aircraft.

3. Target shipping was just one of the objectives, they only had to hamper efforts and make the rescue not possible to achieve victory.

Yes, but that's not possible when you have the worlds most powerful navy at the time (Royal Navy) providing adequate anti-aircraft cover for the ships, along with a very powerful RAF covering the skies.

For Hitler the british were the same aryan race and he was right, both germans and british have the same ethnicity. Moreover the royal house of germany and england had familial ties pre-WW1. During the age when germany did not exist and there was only prussia the germans were the best allies of england. How time changes!!

Germany would have easily won the second world war if only Hitler let his generals fight the war instead of being the walking talking red tape disaster.

Britain was only concerned about one thing: "The Balance of power" in Europe.

During Napoleon's campaigns across Europe Britain supported the various German states against the French back when the German states existed independently as separate entities rather than a single unified Reich.

But when it was the Germans who defeated the French during the Franco-Prussian war of 1870, and thus as a result German states unified into a single, powerful, Reich under the leadership of Otto von Bismarck, the British viewed this as a threat to their position within Europe as its leading power. They just could not tolerate a rivaling power within Europe, and thus in the pursuit of this policy of "balance of power" they destroyed Europe when in fact they could have formed a very powerful and lasting alliance with Germany.

 

[Echo_419]

"A lost victory" - Field Marshall Erich Von Manstein​

Background
After conquering Poland in the East, the German forces were poised for "Fall Gelb"-an offensive in the West. It started on the dawn of May 10 1940 when the German airborne troops landed in Belgium and Netherlands to secure key bridges.
The surprise attack on France would come from the wooded Ardennes in Belgium where the French least expected it. On May 12, the German forces were at the Franco-Belgian border and their un stoppable advance deep inside France started. Paul Von Kliest's forces broke through the French defenses into the open country, turning Westward in the direction of English channel.

General Heinz Guderian's panzers on the advance - France 1940​

"Dunkrik pocket"
General Heinz Guderian's panzers(tanks) had advanced way ahead than the slow infantry in pursuit of the allies. This made his superior Kliest and even Hitler worried that without infantry support, the panzers were vulnerable so despite Guderian's protests, he was ordered to halt on May 15 and again on May 17 which invited counter attacks from the allies but none came as the allies were too exhausted and low on morale. Despite these two delays, Guderian's panzers reached the town of Abbeville on the English channel thus splitting the allies in two, with the experienced 140,000 French and the pre war trained 198,000 troops of the British expedetionary force (BEF) trapped in what later came to be known as "Dunkrik pocket".

With their backs to the wall, the British mounted a brave and successful counter attack on Rommel's panzers at Arras on May 21 confusing him about the actual number of the British troops involved in the attack. Nevertheless, the attack failed to materialise as the French counter attack in another sector failed to supplement the temporary victory at Arras but the British attack did delay Rommel's lightening advance.

Finally, the German forces were poised to deliver a deadly blow to the British at Dunkirk by killing or capturing most of the remnants of BEF. Nothing less of a miracle could now save the BEF whose only hope of survival was to evacuate using the port of Dunkrik. The British had already started gathering every available ship, merchant vessel and fisher boat to help pull it's trapped troops out.

Hitler snatches defeat from the jaws of victory
Ready to pounce on their prey, German forces crossed the canal defence line at Dunkrik on May 24. Kliest had his prey cornered. He burned to advance and bag it when an inexplicable order from none other than Hitler himself not only halted the advance but called the German forces back to the line!

This order to halt the advance put an end to any realistic hope to defeat Britain. From May 26 to June 4, the British thus evacuated their men along with more than one hundred thousand French soldiers to England. Although the British managed to save their men but they had to leave most of their heavy equipment behind.

'Operation Dynamo' was the British code name of the evacuation of Dunkrik​

Why Hitler halted the advance?
Although there are many theories about it but this is not explainable why Hitler allowed enemy soldiers to escape. Many say that he did so because before giving orders to halt the advance, Hitler was convinced by Herman Goering, the commander in chief of the Luftwaffe(Air force) that his aircraft could destroy the British at Dunkrik. His bombers hit the port of Dunkrik but the smoke rising from the destroyed port screened the evacuating British from any attack by the Luftwaffe thus making the job to provide air cover easier for the Royal Air Force (RAF).

Some also believe that Hitler also wanted to impose his peace terms on British by allowing their forces an escape so that it may not provoke them to resist at all costs.

From:
Military history, facts, tactics and more: When Hitler missed an opportunity to defeat Britian

Related link:
Military history, facts, tactics and more: First glider raid in history of war

@AUSTERLITZ @Slav Defence @Gufi @levina @Desert Fox

What a idiot

 

[SarthakGanguly]

"A lost victory" - Field Marshall Erich Von Manstein​

Background
After conquering Poland in the East, the German forces were poised for "Fall Gelb"-an offensive in the West. It started on the dawn of May 10 1940 when the German airborne troops landed in Belgium and Netherlands to secure key bridges.
The surprise attack on France would come from the wooded Ardennes in Belgium where the French least expected it. On May 12, the German forces were at the Franco-Belgian border and their un stoppable advance deep inside France started. Paul Von Kliest's forces broke through the French defenses into the open country, turning Westward in the direction of English channel.

General Heinz Guderian's panzers on the advance - France 1940​

"Dunkrik pocket"
General Heinz Guderian's panzers(tanks) had advanced way ahead than the slow infantry in pursuit of the allies. This made his superior Kliest and even Hitler worried that without infantry support, the panzers were vulnerable so despite Guderian's protests, he was ordered to halt on May 15 and again on May 17 which invited counter attacks from the allies but none came as the allies were too exhausted and low on morale. Despite these two delays, Guderian's panzers reached the town of Abbeville on the English channel thus splitting the allies in two, with the experienced 140,000 French and the pre war trained 198,000 troops of the British expedetionary force (BEF) trapped in what later came to be known as "Dunkrik pocket".

With their backs to the wall, the British mounted a brave and successful counter attack on Rommel's panzers at Arras on May 21 confusing him about the actual number of the British troops involved in the attack. Nevertheless, the attack failed to materialise as the French counter attack in another sector failed to supplement the temporary victory at Arras but the British attack did delay Rommel's lightening advance.

Finally, the German forces were poised to deliver a deadly blow to the British at Dunkirk by killing or capturing most of the remnants of BEF. Nothing less of a miracle could now save the BEF whose only hope of survival was to evacuate using the port of Dunkrik. The British had already started gathering every available ship, merchant vessel and fisher boat to help pull it's trapped troops out.

Hitler snatches defeat from the jaws of victory
Ready to pounce on their prey, German forces crossed the canal defence line at Dunkrik on May 24. Kliest had his prey cornered. He burned to advance and bag it when an inexplicable order from none other than Hitler himself not only halted the advance but called the German forces back to the line!

This order to halt the advance put an end to any realistic hope to defeat Britain. From May 26 to June 4, the British thus evacuated their men along with more than one hundred thousand French soldiers to England. Although the British managed to save their men but they had to leave most of their heavy equipment behind.

'Operation Dynamo' was the British code name of the evacuation of Dunkrik​

Why Hitler halted the advance?
Although there are many theories about it but this is not explainable why Hitler allowed enemy soldiers to escape. Many say that he did so because before giving orders to halt the advance, Hitler was convinced by Herman Goering, the commander in chief of the Luftwaffe(Air force) that his aircraft could destroy the British at Dunkrik. His bombers hit the port of Dunkrik but the smoke rising from the destroyed port screened the evacuating British from any attack by the Luftwaffe thus making the job to provide air cover easier for the Royal Air Force (RAF).

Some also believe that Hitler also wanted to impose his peace terms on British by allowing their forces an escape so that it may not provoke them to resist at all costs.

From:
Military history, facts, tactics and more: When Hitler missed an opportunity to defeat Britian

Related link:
Military history, facts, tactics and more: First glider raid in history of war

@AUSTERLITZ @Slav Defence @Gufi @levina @Desert Fox

It was not Hitler's decision alone. There were plenty of reasons.

Gerd von Rundstedt, commander of OB West, first expressed his concern for the extended German flanks. Hitler vacillated. Goring, the Reichsmarshall of the Luftwaffe promised a destruction of the fleet evacuating the British. It was perfectly possibly to believe him then - the campaigns in Rotterdam, Norway, Poland were very successful. A delay of 2 days was not considered a major issue, with the air force pounding the evac ships. A flank counter attack threw German supply troops into panic and threatened the 8th Panzer division (and the entire spearhead of the Army Group A that went through the Ardennes). Rommel and others continued their 'Recon in force' against the Allied positions, but failed to break through. The RAF also protected the troops on the ground and the ships in the seas. The Admiralty was able to plan and execute a super fast rescue. 40k French troops held the perimeter for the crucial 2 to 3 days.

Blaming Hitler alone for this is childish. He and the OKW can be blamed for not assigning first priority to the pocket in Dunkirk instead of destroying French positions in the South. But the part played by the evacuated BEF is important only in retrospect. Hitler shares this blame with his top military leadership - Rundstedt, Goering, et al.

 

[waz]

The RAF had plenty of fuel to keep their fighters in the sky over Dunkirk since their merchant shipping was practically undisturbed this early in the war.

Also, see here the distance between Britain and Dunkirk and Germany and Dukirk:

View attachment 248191

The Germans had to first take off within Germany itself and then fly over Belgium thus expending most of their fuel along the route, meanwhile the British only needed to cross a narrow strip of water to reach Dunkirk.​

The BF-109E's, the only BF-109 model available to the Luftwaffe at the time had a limited fuel carrying capacity (it was famous for this shortcoming), was taking off from within Germany, using up most of its fuel along the way before making it to the French coast. Thus, due to its limitations it could not engage enemy aircraft or shipping beyond its fuel carrying capacity.

Fuel was an issue for the RAF.

The RAF fighters were actually crossing the channel continuously to try to break up the German air attacks on the beaches, but the range of the planes and limited fuel reserves allowed RAF fighters only 15 minutes to wage battle against the Luftwaffe before being forced back to base

RAF Webpage

Although I disagree with the whole "the RAF was unable to protect", which is nonsense, considering the air support was crucial in allowing the evacuation to take place.
You have to also take into account that the losses on the RAF side, which were 145 planes, including 42 spirfires, against the Luftwaffe losing 156 aircraft in operations in the nine days of Operation Dynamo, were similar to their German foes, signifying it was a tough fight.
It's true the ME-109 had limitations in fuel capacity and yes the bulk of the attacks had to be launched from German territory or earlier captured territories, as the French airfields were not all operational to the Luftwaffe.

Yes, most French aircraft and this time were destroyed or captured. But there were parts of France unreachable for the luftwaffe, once again due to the range limitations of their fighter aircraft.

Yes, agreed.

Yes, but that's not possible when you have the worlds most powerful navy at the time (Royal Navy) providing adequate anti-aircraft cover for the ships, along with a very powerful RAF covering the skies.

It certainly was possible. Most historians talk of the "race against time". If you look at naval losses alone, over 200 ships were sunk! Which included six Royal Navy destroyers and three French ones. Nine other major vessels were destroyed including minesweepers and corvettes. 19 destroyers were also badly damaged.


Anyway I think we are getting carried away from the main topic. The order was was first given by General Gerd von Rundstedt, commander of Army Group A, which was the large force fighting in western France. In turn, the pause was requested by von Rundstedt’s tank unit commander, who had lost 50% of his armored forces and needed time to regroup. This is when Goering stepped in.

 

[Gauss]

An interesting point that can be made here is that the German High Command was unanimous in its view that Barbarossa was more viable than Sea lion (code name for invasion of Britain). Hence they went for Barbarossa. That operation failed even after the destruction of the bulk of soviet army in the opening stages. Therefore I am led to conclude that sea lion - which was the more difficult operation - would have also failed even after the destruction of bulk of British army at Dunkirk.

 

[Psychic]

3). The Germans didn't have enough of the Ju-88 tactical attack/bomber aircraft to inflict significant losses on British shipping, not to mention they were vulnerable to Allied fighters.

Agree with the rest of your points, but dive bombers are roughly modern day pgm's as the accuracy rate of stukas and val were more than 90 percent and ju88 wasn't necessary allied inorder to attack allied shipping. Take a look at the Pacific theater, how many ships were sunk there by dive bombers.

It was not Hitler's decision alone. There were plenty of reasons.

Gerd von Rundstedt, commander of OB West, first expressed his concern for the extended German flanks. Hitler vacillated. Goring, the Reichsmarshall of the Luftwaffe promised a destruction of the fleet evacuating the British. It was perfectly possibly to believe him then - the campaigns in Rotterdam, Norway, Poland were very successful. A delay of 2 days was not considered a major issue, with the air force pounding the evac ships. A flank counter attack threw German supply troops into panic and threatened the 8th Panzer division (and the entire spearhead of the Army Group A that went through the Ardennes). Rommel and others continued their 'Recon in force' against the Allied positions, but failed to break through. The RAF also protected the troops on the ground and the ships in the seas. The Admiralty was able to plan and execute a super fast rescue. 40k French troops held the perimeter for the crucial 2 to 3 days.

Blaming Hitler alone for this is childish. He and the OKW can be blamed for not assigning first priority to the pocket in Dunkirk instead of destroying French positions in the South. But the part played by the evacuated BEF is important only in retrospect. Hitler shares this blame with his top military leadership - Rundstedt, Goering, et al.

Probably, you are right but the Germans were in a position to decimate the BEF....Kliest wanted to attack but was ordered to call it off.
Hitler, who otherwise gave orders to advance or fight till death despite all odds did not give such an order when it was needed.
After BEF evacuated safely, there was no realistic chance of capturing Britain as they had not only a strong navy but a very effective chain home defence utilizing the wonder eyes(radar).

. Therefore I am led to conclude that sea lion - which was the more difficult operation - would have also failed even after the destruction of bulk of British army at Dunkirk.

Hitler could have imposed his peace terms on the British had he been able to destroy BEF...
Furthermore, England lacked the strategic depth, resources and manpower although they had a mighty navy.

In order for this to have worked (Hitler imposing his own terms for peace on the British) it should have been the other way around, ie capturing the 300,000 British and French troops as a form of bargaining chip. Knowing that the Germans held some of their finest troops, the Brits would have given greater consideration to peace negotiations. Whatever the reasons were for sparing the British at Dunkirk, they cost Hitler the war.

Many think that he had a soft corner for British. The point to which you replied means that by demonstrating his generosity, he thought that he could make a diplomatic impact, and make peace with the Brits but the evacuation was declared as a great victory by the allies(and it was a great victory).