When coterminous Pakistan fought Alexander the Great and almost brought him down to his knees.

[maravan91]

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/when...-down-to-his-knees.521716/page-9#post-9929395

Read.

As i said you can proud of your ancestors both porus and rajah dahir. And their resistance against mighty greeks and arabs. For outside world both rajah dahir and porus r defeated kings

 

[Chhatrapati]

I dont like to keep on repeating myself, but the history you are indoctrinated with was written 300 years after the battle of hydespas by none other then Greeks themselves. You gullible Indians are easy to manipulate.

Gullible who? The whole thread is based on Greek historians accounts. Even the name Porus is Greek.

Indus is the civilization which "civilized" the lands around it, including present day India, or atleast majority of its western side. Your rants are laughable.

Man IVC died down may be due to the invasion or droughts. Actually it's the culture of Aryans that is followed by the subcontinent. Don't make inaccurate statements. If Ayan invasion theory is true, then IVC has nothing to do with the advancements made in civilization. IVC is not a continuing civilization.

Thats what I said, READ the link I posted above, It will clear your mind. By all accounts

Yeah, I read that with quite a lot of inaccuracies. Anyway, Alexander didn't die from injuries sustained during the war against Porus. He died nearly two years after the battle. They say, he was poisoned by a women. Or drank strong wine and the strong booze killed him.

You think 1000 years is not a long time? Those who tried to resist among your kind, the inhibitant of gangaland, the present day India, their heads were chopped off in thousands. not saying its a good or bad things, but resistance was futile. I dont have to tell you what happened to the best of warrior kind among you, the marhattas.

Glad your ancestors reverted, good for you.

Thousand year is a myth.. Fed by your education system. Conquering a few regions and later losing them cannot be considered as ruling for thousand years over India. If majority of regions came under the rule for a thousand years, yeah I can call it a thousand years of rule. Those foreigners were great people. They fought among themselves too. Raping, killing innocent civilians, forceful conversions. About the decapitation, I think Sikh's have vivid accounts of these. As their Gurus were tortured and killed by Mughals. If you happen to read their books, there are some hush hush stuffs directly against Islam.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Being nice to you, @Kaptaan, old bean.

First I want to thank everybody for their contribution. Secondly rather surprised that we have not had any Gangas jumping in and trying to claim it was they who fought Aexander's army to it's knees. Just want to clarify that I am using the term "coterminous Pakistan". Coterminous means having the same space or boundaries in time. In other words the land and geography that is today Pakistan. Or the Indus River region.

coterminous
kəʊˈtəːmɪnəs/
adjective
adjective: coterminous
having the same boundaries or extent in space, time, or meaning.

Thirdly, we must understand that Greece was the unrivalled superpower of it's time. It had just defeated the mighty Persian Empire and nothing stood in way of Alexander to be "conquerer of the known world". He and his army then rolled into coterminous Pakistan. Divided we we were. Indeed probably split like the district map I posted above. Just like today we had some traitors. But we also had heroes.

It must have been a strange sight. The mighty Greek army with Alexander now behaving like he was god marched through our lands. I can imagine our people leaving their farms and heading to fight the world conquerer from afar. Porus whose kingdom is only slightly larger than modern day Jhelum District fought Alexander and his Greeks on the banks of Jhelum River in what history records as Battle of Hydaspes 326BCE. Any of you members from Jhelum district should feel proud. The battle is still studied in military academies across the world. Porus fought bravely but was defeated but the battle is recorded as very difficult by greek historians.

Along the entire coterminous Pakistan the Greeks found our ancestors - from tiny kingdoms to just tribes fighting them at every turn. The Greeks often through frustration and what was common in those days massacred the defeated. This is what happened in Multan or what was then known as Mali. The Mallians after having almost killed Alexander were killed indiscrimnately. However by the time the Greeks left our land we would forever be recorded as a difficult, divided but defiant fighters. Coterminous Pakistan would become a Greek Satrap in a huge empire stretching from Europe to Pakistan.

I ask Pakistani members to look at this map and see if they can place their location on the route Alexander took and or the Porus Kingdom marked green proximating to modern Jhelum District and regions adjacent. I encourage any personal accounts, stories or anything that you can add to this thread - in partcular from districts that lay on Alexander armies route.

I think it is high time Pakistan built statues to Porus and other fighters including our enemy Alexander. Over 2000 years we should not bear any bad blood with the Greeks but recognize the warriors that once made world history on our soil. Not many people can say they took on the superpower of it';s time with gusto like we did.

Next time you drive over the Jhelum River take few seconds to reflect on the momentous battle that took place so many centuries ago on it's banks.

And I am glad Pakistan Army Museum has embraced the Battle of Hydaspes and Porus in it's collection. A fitting inheritor of the valour shown by Porus over 2000 years ago.

 

[WhyCry]

"coterminous Pakistan" .

I am happy to learn that these arabs fought the alexander and rather turning christian turned muslims.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Pakistan is not a natural habitat to elephants. It is too dry. Elephants need too much pasture and water to be native to Pakistan. Without doubt the elephants would have been traded or brought from the east - the moist Ganga Basin.

"Keeping a body that massive moving requires many football-fields-full of vegetation. It also takes huge amounts of water. Wild elephants spend most of their time either looking for food or eating it once they find it.
Elephants can drink as much as 50 gallons (~190 liters) of water in a single day. Because they drink so often and so much, in the wild they are never far from water, though they may live in a variety of habitats, from thick jungle to open savannas."

Despite them being exotic to Indus they could have been kept in limited numbers by royalty adjacent to major rivers.

If you would pardon

Pakistan is not a natural habitat to elephants. It is too dry. Elephants need too much pasture and water to be native to Pakistan. Without doubt the elephants would have been traded or brought from the east - the moist Ganga Basin.

"Keeping a body that massive moving requires many football-fields-full of vegetation. It also takes huge amounts of water. Wild elephants spend most of their time either looking for food or eating it once they find it.
Elephants can drink as much as 50 gallons (~190 liters) of water in a single day. Because they drink so often and so much, in the wild they are never far from water, though they may live in a variety of habitats, from thick jungle to open savannas."

Despite them being exotic to Indus they could have been kept in limited numbers by royalty adjacent to major rivers.

Pardon the interruption, but both elephants and rhinos are on the Indus Valley seals (as you probably already know). Rhinos were certainly native to the locale. They were around till very late in the day; Babur hunted rhinos. The entire topography has dried out considerably over the centuries, and noticeably even during the last six centuries.

Now back all those miles to the Ganges (the Musi, really).

 

[Taimoor Khan]

As i said you can proud of your ancestors both porus and rajah dahir. And their resistance against mighty greeks and arabs. For outside world both rajah dahir and porus r defeated kings

Outside world doesnt matter. Its our soil, our region, we define what is history. not outsiders.

 

[maravan91]

Outside world doesnt matter. Its our soil, our region, we define what is history. not outsiders.

I am not degrading porus or rajah dahir. Both r son of soil. You can proud of their resistance against arabs and greeks.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Gullible who? The whole thread is based on Greek historians accounts. Even the name Porus is Greek.

What is in the name? It is to do the narrative, build by the Greeks on how their poster boy, the blonde chap defeated the son of the soil and somehow handed over his land back to him. What a utter load of BS. LOL. You are not getting it do you? Its imperative for the west to keep the narrative and image of Alexdendar "the great" , the undefeated one, alive and kicking. For your gullible lot, it makes sense.

Man IVC died down may be due to the invasion or droughts. Actually it's the culture of Aryans that is followed by the subcontinent. Don't make inaccurate statements. If Ayan invasion theory is true, then IVC has nothing to do with the advancements made in civilization. IVC is not a continuing civilization.

Aryan theory of invasion is the thing of past my gullible Indian, invented by the colonials to keep the people confused about the history of this region. Get out of it. If there was anything like Aryans, it was the people of Indus themselves. Nazi Germans were looking for their roots here and they were no mugs. Aryan invasion theory is so fked up and for it to lived out all these years has to be one hell of biggest propaganda in the history. Some random nomads from central Asia will just turn up and challange the biggest empire/civilization of its time stretching all the way to Turkmenistan, with them having no trace of their own civilization/infrastructure in central asia!! Who would believe this BS?? IVC was the humanity first civilization/empire/one governing unit. Rest came off it.

You lot were civilized by the original people, the elites, you should be proud if it.

Yeah, I read that with quite a lot of inaccuracies. Anyway, Alexander didn't die from injuries sustained during the war against Porus. He died nearly two years after the battle. They say, he was poisoned by a women. Or drank strong wine and the strong booze killed him.

Right! a midget who actually never fought the battles on the ground one to one , and was always protected by his bodygaurds, getting his favorite horse killed in the battle which he was riding, with his bodyguards no where to be seen. You need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Thousand year is a myth.. Fed by your education system. Conquering a few regions and later losing them cannot be considered as ruling for thousand years over India. If majority of regions came under the rule for a thousand years, yeah I can call it a thousand years of rule. Those foreigners were great people. They fought among themselves too. Raping, killing innocent civilians, forceful conversions. About the decapitation, I think Sikh's have vivid accounts of these. As their Gurus were tortured and killed by Mughals. If you happen to read their books, there are some hush hush stuffs directly against Islam.

The only major resistance was put by marhattas and they were sorted in Panipat, thousands were killed, pursed even after the defeat, and their heads where chopped off. And marhattas are considered to be the "warrior" kind of gangiyates. You lot are not warrior kind. Focus on what you are good at, being a banya.

I am not degrading porus or rajah dahir. Both r son of soil. You can proud of their resistance against arabs and greeks.

I am proud of Porus , the son of soil , kicking the hell out of the tyrant and arrogant of his time.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Are you in a position to do a write-up of pros and cons of Elephants in warfare? I wonder why didnot Porous use camels? Did the dromedary camel still not arrive there or was it still not bred to perfection for warfare purposes? Quite frankly Porous should have stocked up on more cavalry...if the Bactrian/Sogdian people had not accompanied Alexander, he would have been basically toast stuck on the ivory teeth of Porous' elephants

Interesting thoughts.

You might like to look up the impact of elephants in European warfare, from Alexander onwards (strangely enough, his enemies, the Achaemenids, never used them against the Greeks).

• One of the peace settlement articles between Seleucus and 'Sandracottus', a non-coterminous non-Pakistani, was the provision of elephants to Seleucus. You might like to read up on the devastating effect that these had in the wars of the Diadochi, Alexander's successors, the generals of his army. As some might notice, coterminous Pakistan inherited a lot of political ideas from Alexander and his successors.
• Hannibal was the next to use elephants, and he used them to tremendous effect against the Romans. Whether these were Indian elephants or African is not really certain; there is a view among animal trainers that African elephants are not really trainable.
• Pyrrhus of Epirus (he of the Pyrrhic victory fame), a distant descendant of Alexander, was another effective user of elephants. His battle-craft was of a high order and he gave the Romans no end of trouble.

Coming to camels, other than the battles of the Arabs, in Arabia and in the Sahara, there is no record of the use of camels in warfare. I am not aware of any such use outside the Arabs and their emulative adversaries, very loosely slubbering the Berbers among the Arabs, which is strictly wrong. In India, there was some desultory use in the Thar Desert. It is true that Babur used them in Panipat I. Perhaps @AUSTERLITZ can tell you about more such uses.

Finally, about cavalry: why do you think Porus had insufficient cavalry? That last line of your comment was confusing. Are you making the mistake of thinking that the Greeks, actually, the Macedonians, were an infantry force? The whole point of Philip II's reforms and of Alexander's battles was the use of cavalry, light infantry and heavy infantry (the Macedonian phalanx, a modification of the Theban phalanx) in a tightly coordinated manner. Alexander won major battles; Granicus, for instance, was almost entirely a cavalry battle, turned inside out, because the breakthrough was by cavalry, the exploitation by infantry, not, as usual, the other way around. Issus, too, was a significant cavalry victory; the oblique charge by Alexander opened up the Persian centre, Darius fled, and the 'Greek' cavalry wheeled left and crashed into the back of the Greek mercenaries fighting for the Persians and broke them. This time, the exploitation was by cavalry, and caused mass slaughter.

At Gaugamela, tactically the most interesting battle of the three, Alexander was again mounted, and beat the Persians by first pinning their infantry with his own infantry in the left and centre, while he drew the large Persian cavalry forces way off into the right, fought them to a standstill and then broke through. However, even as he broke through, he had to disengage to rescue his left wing, isolated and under severe attack by the Persian cavalry - now wait for this - mainly, at that place, the best of the Persians, the Indians and the Parthians.

I hope you get the point.

I hope you also recall that Porus' son led the frantic cavalry dash to stop the 'Greeks' at the river bank, where they had crossed the Hydaspes far up-river and caught Porus' army off guard.

Both Granicus and Issus involved the 'Greeks' crossing a river to fight the Persians; Hydaspes was the third of Alexander's four major battles to be cross-river.

I don't think there was much lacking in cavalry tactics among the 'Greeks', though they were admittedly depleted by the long and exhausting campaign across the length of the Persian Empire.

 

[Chhatrapati]

Aryan theory of invasion is the thing of past my gullible Indian, invented by the colonials to keep the people confused about the history of this region. Get out of it. If there was anything like Aryans, it was the people of Indus themselves. Nazi Germans were looking for their roots here and they were no mugs. Aryan invasion theory is so fked up and for it to lived out all these years has to be one hell of biggest propaganda in the history. Some random nomads from central Asia will just turn up and challange the biggest empire/civilization of its time stretching all the way to Turkmenistan, with them having no trace of their own civilization/infrastructure in central asia!! Who would believe this BS?? IVC was the humanity first civilization/empire/one governing unit. Rest came off it.

You lot were civilized by the original people, the elites, you should be proud if it.

ahaha.... great, you should ask this to kaptaan who vehemently support this theory. The aryans don't affect me. I'm not one. And TBH I don't believe in Aryan invasion. What you said are the theories used by todays Sanghi.
Let's not go into that discussion.

Right! a midget who actually never fought the battles on the ground one to one , and was always protected by his bodygaurds, getting his favorite horse killed in the battle which he was riding, with his bodyguards no where to be seen. You need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Lol, what. Don't put words into my mouth. i never claimed he was great and powerful warriors. We have nothing to go forward than historical accounts of these historians about how he died. So far, it looks credible.

The only major resistance was put by marhattas and they were sorted in Panipat, thousands were killed, pursed even after the defeat, and their heads where chopped off. And marhattas are considered to be the "warrior" kind of gangiyates. You lot are not warrior kind. Focus on what you are good at, being a banya.

Yeah, here you go. Your own historical inaccuracies and ignorance. The Maratha's were not the warrior kind. It was the Rajputs and Jats, Haryanvis. And todays Sikh. Marathas led a good campaign against the Mughals and destroyed their Kingdom.

Yeah, many unspeakable things were committed by those rulers. May be you take pride in that. Not us.
Banya is a cast in hundreds of other casts. I think I should stop, thought you had some knowledge of any historical accounts but just few rhetoric and half read facts.

I am proud of Porus , the son of soil , kicking the hell out of the tyrant and arrogant of his time.

Yeah, a great worshiper of Ganga. The irony.

 

[itsanufy]

when I say Pakistan, I mean coterminous Pakistan as used by @Kaptaan

The Brahmins in Tamil culture have Avg IQ of probably 100....same as North Indian Brahmins ..perhaps a bit higher...the non-Brahmin component of Tamil IQ is quite low..most probably 2 points lower than the Indian average ..so circa 80

The Brahmins having retained the most of their Aryan genes among all the Aryan groups have an advantage in IQ...and Aryans have been living in warm climate only the last 3,500 years...

Most of the Software Moguls in India are Brahmins or Persians or Perso-Shia Muslims or Khatris...perfectly underscoring my point of race and IQ

Most of India's Nobel Prize winners in the sciences are either Brahmins or Khatris ..the ones with the highest ANI gene percentages...............

14 of the 18 scientists in Operation Smiling Buddha were Tamil Brahmins





PS: I have firm reasons to believe in Aryan Migration Theory...please donot try to debate me on this here...I offer my theories regarding intelligence based on this theory

Two greatest scientific minds of India from your state I can think were not Brahmins (2 Bose)

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Two greatest scientific minds of India from your state I can think were not Brahmins (2 Bose)

they were Kayasthas...quite close to Brahmins and forward caste..and Bengal is a firmly Indo-Aryan state..meaning the percentage of Aryan genes much higher among the non-Brahmin high castes than in the southern states


and its not as if those with no Aryan genes in India cannot throw up high caliber scientists, its just that the frequency will be extremely low

Just as no blacks have won the Nobel Prize in the sciences inspite of living in millions of numbers in developed countries for well over 200 years (over 50-100 years with good rights)

but only a few hundred thousand Indians or Chinese or Japanese in the West manage to win Nobel Prizes in the sciences with amazing alacrity


but these same blacks have been heavyweight boxing and UFC champions in the world
but in the past 100 years or even in the next 100, Indians and Chinese in the West wont be able to win a single heavyweight fighting title


But in wars Indians and Chinese have been vicious through out history, as wars are mor dependent on unit cohesion, strategy,tactics, supply line management etc......all of them again more function of IQ than pure individual physical strength which blacks have more


Light cavalry horse archers of the Mongols used to weigh only 60 kg on average

their heavy cavalry men used to weigh around 80 kg on average.....that is way less than today's middleweight in boxing and UFC

 

[Pakistani E]

@Kaptaan Interesting isn't it, the ones who seem to be arguing with Pakistanis most virulently look to be from further away than the region of North-west Subcontinent. Yet they are so eager to tell us that the history of our land is nothing to do with us. I honestly don't know how you manage to still converse with these folks, I lose my patience and have to go outside for fresh air whenever I discuss this topic with Indians. I've never had an Indian talk to me personally the way these guardians of the Indus region do on this forum.

 

[itsanufy]

they were Kayasthas...quite close to Brahmins and forward caste..and Bengal is a firmly Indo-Aryan state..meaning the percentage of Aryan genes much higher among the non-Brahmin high castes than in the southern states


and its not as if those with no Aryan genes in India cannot throw up high caliber scientists, its just that the frequency will be extremely low

Just as no blacks have won the Nobel Prize in the sciences inspite of living in millions of numbers in developed countries for well over 200 years (over 50-100 years with good rights)

but only a few hundred thousand Indians or Chinese or Japanese in the West manage to win Nobel Prizes in the sciences with amazing alacrity


but these same blacks have been heavyweight boxing and UFC champions in the world
but in the past 100 years or even in the next 100, Indians and Chinese in the West wont be able to win a single heavyweight fighting title


But in wars Indians and Chinese have been vicious through out history, as wars are mor dependent on unit cohesion, strategy,tactics, supply line management etc......all of them again more function of IQ than pure individual physical strength which blacks have more


Light cavalry horse archers of the Mongols used to weigh only 60 kg on average

their heavy cavalry men used to weigh around 80 kg on average.....that is way less than today's middleweight in boxing and UFC

I do accept, all of the famous Bengali s are either Brahmin or Kayaatha.
On another note, Jews have their origin in the mid of desert. But managed more than 50 percentage of novel. How the cold/densely populated theory comes true?

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

I do accept, all of the famous Bengali s are either Brahmin or Kayaatha.
On another note, Jews have their origin in the mid of desert. But managed more than 50 percentage of novel. How the cold/densely populated theory comes true?

its only Ashkenazi Jews who are High IQ Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews are below white average ..its because of selection pressure in Europe where Ashkenazi (European) Jews were not allowed any jobs other than banking and book keeping...this meant only the High IQ of the Jews were able to hold down jobs or get rich and poor/low-IQ Jews would either be persecuted by the Christians or die Childless..these High IQ jews would marry and have lors of children...within a 1000 years Jews had 10-15 point advantage on whites..it was just unplanned eugenics

The mystery of high IQ of European Jews is a problem that has been completely solved a while back..look at Harvard Jewish scientist Steven Pinker ..as well as the Scandanavian series on race and IQ Brainwashed on Youtube



on the Indian front..If I am made a dictator who ensures only the top 3-4 percent of India reproduces and rest are sterilzed, then within 25-40 years you would be looking at the Greatest country on Earth that has ever existed


But the question is: are you, me or others ready to put up with that level of sacrifice?

but in the end we would end up with a country with as much average IQ as the Jews in USA..ca 115

and population will fall dramatically to stabilize at 50-100 million...I would rather live my last years in a country like that, in an India like that...100 crore Indians are drag on India....the rest 20 crores are somewhat okay