Whats Wrong with ISPR Press release emphasizing "BETTER GOVERNANCE" from Political Leadership

[Mrc]

Facts are facts. The law is the law.

Why are most people anti.army also anti islam?....referring to ur quotes in another thread

 

[Path-Finder]

Why are most people anti.army also anti islam?....referring to ur quotes in another thread

it is by design.

 

[Mrc]

And eventually it turns out they are also against existence of pakistan, which makes whole point of argument with them mute

 

[Finer]

They shouldn't have said this. Thank to Azadi march, PMLN power has been reduced to dummy prior to agreement of power sharing. So why expect governance from the government who is forcibly tied to its own chair? Pakistan army wanted more powers, so through power-sharing agreement they got it, and now lead by the example rather than dump everything on PMLN which they forced that party restricted to dummy in the first place. Either allow PMLN to rule Pakistan unconditionally or quit complaining about the governance of PMLN and lead by the example.

Despite of restrictions, PMLN managed to attract billion-dollars investment to fragile nation left in ruins in the history of Pakistan. That is something bold coming from restricted PMLN. Imagine the endless potential scenario if PMLN are to rule Pakistan uncondtionally. I guess Pakistan army will not let that happen, yet Pakistan army cannot wait to dump everything on PMLN.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Let us not try to be oversmart here. There is nothing "potentially" unconstitutional in what the Army does in politics (and before anybody tries to attack this again, the brave personnel doing their sworn legal duties deserve the highest respect). Why are you so afraid to call a spade a spade? The meddling in politics by the Army is patently unconstitutional and illegal.

A military coup is unconstitutional, actions by the military not endorsed by the elected government are unconstitutional (here we need the elected government to openly point out any such actions of course). 'Potentially unconstitutional' is not the same as 'unconstitutional' - the former needs to be established as 'unconstitutional' before criticism is leveled at the institution.

As I have shown above, the Army cannot ask the government to suddenly wake up, do its bidding and then step aside like a switch.

The Army is not asking the government to 'step aside' currently (has not done so since 2008), and the 'bidding' that you refer to in the most recent statement is more an expression of concern (after several NAP reviews with the civilian government that showed little to no progress) urging the government to focus on implementation of reforms overwhelmingly supported by the media, public and many other political parties (at least publicly).

And as you have begrudgingly agreed above, the Army simply cannot allow any effective challenge to its hold on power to be allowed to rise.

I agreed with no such statement. I argued that our public and media discourse must make clear that unconstitutional acts by the military, or any other institution, cannot be tolerated, regardless of the failings of civilian institutions and if any such acts come to light, must be vociferously opposed and the individuals responsible held accountable - at the same time, the incompetence and failures of the elected representatives must be discussed, analyzed and criticized just as vociferously if Pakistan's democratic system is to evolve and improve.

We cannot wait for 'the next several election cycles', and some arbitrary and intangible determination by someone like you on whether the time is appropriate, before the public and media start criticizing the failures of Pakistan's elected representatives.

 

[VCheng]

Why are most people anti.army also anti islam?....referring to ur quotes in another thread

Please note that I am neither anti-Army nor am I anti-Islam. Those labels are thrown about by those who cannot argue against the logical content of my posts.

The Army is a honorable institution and I respect all the personnel who do their jobs selflessly - as long as it is their sworn duty and within the ambit of the law. The moment they engage in illegal activity that is unconstitutional, they cease to be worthy of any respect and become criminals just like any other.

Islam as a religion is a great way of life. There is no doubt about that and alHamdoLillah I am a Muslim. However, that does not mean that matters of State must be intertwined with matters of faith. Religion belongs in the personal domain and has no place in matters of State.

Now, is that too difficult to understand?

 

[Humble Analyst]

Please note that I am neither anti-Army nor am I anti-Islam. Those labels are thrown about by those who cannot argue against the logical content of my posts.

The Army is a honorable institution and I respect all the personnel who do their jobs selflessly - as long as it is their sworn duty and within the ambit of the law. The moment they engage in illegal activity that is unconstitutional, they cease to be worthy of any respect and become criminals just like any other.

Islam as a religion is a great way of life. There is no doubt about that and alHamdoLillah I am a Muslim. However, that does not mean that matters of State must be intertwined with matters of faith. Religion belongs in the personal domain and has no place in matters of State.

Now, is that too difficult to understand?

This back and forth lacks sincerety

 

[VCheng]

We cannot wait for 'the next several election cycles', and some arbitrary and intangible determination by someone like you on whether the time is appropriate, before the public and media start criticizing the failures of Pakistan's elected representatives.

There are no shortcuts on the path to developing proper institutions. As I have said before, we must agree to disagree here and carry on our separate ways and views. We cannot convince each other and reconcile our different opinions.

This back and forth lacks sincerety

There is no back and forth here. My explanation is perfectly consistent and logical.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

They shouldn't have said this.

Why not?

Thank to Azadi march, PMLN power has been reduced to dummy prior to agreement of power sharing.

The Azadi march would have been a non issue had Nawaz Sharif not made a huge mess of a simple demand for a neutral investigation into election rigging. There were multiple occasions when Nawaz could have backed down and agreed to investigations (which eventually played out in the PMLN's favor), instead he chose to blow up a non-issue. Don't blame his ineptitude on the military.

So why expect governance from the government who is forcibly tied to its own chair? Pakistan army wanted more powers, so through power-sharing agreement they got it, and now lead by the example rather than dump everything on PMLN which they forced that party restricted to dummy in the first place. Either allow PMLN to rule Pakistan unconditionally or quit complaining about the governance of PMLN and lead by the example.

What 'power sharing agreement'? Where are the details of this agreement? What 'powers' are allegedly with the military and which ones are with the PMLN? Even if foreign policy is with the military, the responsibility for domestic governance and the economy lies with the PMLN and the provincial governments - what's stopping them from enacting reforms and governing?

Despite of restrictions,

What restrictions? This sounds like the usual 'pass the buck' on the part of the politicians to explain away their ineptitude. If you really believe these allegations, please provide tangible and credible reasons that are holding the elected Federal and provincial governments from delivering on governance and reforms. If you can't, these are just the usual conspiracy theories and excuses to explain away failure.

There are no shortcuts on the path to developing proper institutions. As I have said before, we must agree to disagree here and carry on our separate ways and views. We cannot convince each other and reconcile our different opinions.

Again, constructive criticism of elected representatives is a critical part of democracy, evolving or otherwise. The electorate needs to know where their elected representatives are failing them so that they can choose accordingly when the next election cycle comes around. You have not offered a valid reason for why the media and public should censor itself and avoid criticizing the elected representatives over their failure, provided this media and public discourse also makes clear that criticism is not an invitation for unconstitutional acts by the military or other institutions.

 

[Musafir117]

Desi Amerki very wrong here, the statement is valid and it's a request to do more not an order As per Action plan the civil and military agreed on 21 points related with terrorism, unfortunately civil government as usual X100% lazy on all fronts which related with them other hand Army Jawan secrefying their lives and plus engage in cities to achieve results.
As a partner in this operation Army has right to remind civilian DO more.

 

[VCheng]

You have not offered a valid reason for why the media and public should censor itself and avoid criticizing the elected representatives over their failure, provided this media and public discourse also makes clear that criticism is not an invitation for unconstitutional acts by the military or other institutions.

As long as the media and public are allowed the same standards for criticisms of the military over their failures and illegal acts. Are you willing to accept that? Fair is fair, right?

As a partner in this operation Army has right to remind civilian DO more.

Sirjee, the Army has not left the civilians in any condition to remain effective any more. Adhmua ghadha kia samaan uthaye gaa?

 

[Finer]

Why not?

The Azadi march would have been a non issue had Nawaz Sharif not made a huge mess of a simple demand for a neutral investigation into election rigging. There were multiple occasions when Nawaz could have backed down and agreed to investigations (which eventually played out in the PMLN's favor), instead he chose to blow up a non-issue. Don't blame his ineptitude on the military.

What 'power sharing agreement'? Where are the details of this agreement? What 'powers' are allegedly with the military and which ones are with the PMLN? Even if foreign policy is with the military, the responsibility for domestic governance and the economy lies with the PMLN and the provincial governments - what's stopping them from enacting reforms and governing?

What restrictions? This sounds like the usual 'pass the buck' on the part of the politicians to explain away their ineptitude. If you really believe these allegations, please provide tangible and credible reasons that are holding the elected Federal and provincial governments from delivering on governance and reforms. If you can't, these are just the usual conspiracy theories and excuses to explain away failure.


Again, constructive criticism of elected representatives is a critical part of democracy, evolving or otherwise. The electorate needs to know where their elected representatives are failing them so that they can choose accordingly when the next election cycle comes around. You have not offered a valid reason for why the media and public should censor itself and avoid criticizing the elected representatives over their failure, provided this media and public discourse also makes clear that criticism is not an invitation for unconstitutional acts by the military or other institutions.

In short, Pakistan army is. Instead of arresting dharna holder for treason, they allowed dharna for the whole month damaging Pakistan economy totaling more than 500 billion rupees damaged. The whole point of restricting PMLN to dummy to make PMLN look bad in term of governing affairs.

Any kid can tell that PMLN is being set up to fail so Pakistan army can use the excuse to interfere and demand more powers over democracy and Pakistan as whole hence power-sharing agreement. Sometimes, reading between the lines can go the long way.

Thank to USA and its warning to impose economic sanction on Pakistan, Pakistan army backed out in last min during Azadi march. Now Pakistan army is using other tactics, and ever since power-sharing agreement thank to Azadi march, Pakistan army can toy with Pakistan and PMLN for fun, and yet Pakistan army can get away easily without accountability.

 

[Humble Analyst]

As long as the media and public are allowed the same standards for criticisms of the military over their failures and illegal acts. Are you willing to accept that? Fair is fair, right?



Sirjee, the Army has not left the civilians in any condition to remain effective any more. Adhmua ghadha kia samaan uthaye gaa?

Oh poor honest civilians, come on civilian leadership is not Razia jo ghundoon men phans gaee. Civilian leadership have no moral compass, the loyalty and dedication level is questionable and ability is way below normal, judiciary is the biggest culprit in Pakistan.

 

[Mrc]

In short, Pakistan army is. Instead of arresting dharna holder for treason, they allowed dharna for the whole month damaging Pakistan economy totaling more than 500 billion rupees damaged. The whole point of restricting PMLN to dummy to make PMLN look bad in term of governing affairs.

Any kid can tell that PMLN is being set up to fail so Pakistan army can use the excuse to interfere and demand more powers over democracy and Pakistan as whole hence power-sharing agreement. Sometimes, reading between the lines can go the long way.

I want to appreciate the wisdom here....
Dharna was started when military was a month into zarb e azb....

Dharna created perfect terror oppertunity within heart of islamabad...which tali dogs failed to materialize
...
U think military actually was behind it...
Well done ...

And military will never arrest any one on political request... its nit how buissmess is done in pk....may be syria or iraq yes

 

[VCheng]

Oh poor honest civilians, come on civilian leadership is not Razia jo ghundoon men phans gaee. Civilian leadership have no moral compass, the loyalty and dedication level is questionable and ability is way below normal, judiciary is the biggest culprit in Pakistan.

Sir, the Army is not much better than your words above, either, to be fair, to the State. However, their loyalty and dedication to each other is just about perfect and keeps the Army above the State in this regard.