What will a secular pakistan look like?

[Kompromat]

Having a Non Muslim President or head of state is going to change as much as Obama did for the Blacks and Abdul Kalam did for Indian Muslims. The trouble is once a minority leader becomes the HOS of a secular country - He then has to stay away from that same minority to avoid being seen as a biased leader.

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

Two nation theory was based on Islam and proven wrong in 71, no idea why people still think Islam being the only reason for united Pakistan.

 

[qamar1990]

Work and wait, give democracy time, develop institutions, make them strong and sovereign. When this happens, it will kick start a social change when people are confident that their state is capable of delivering services and justice. People would only buy govt's new narrative if they have faith in their political structure. The first goal to start a social change should be to strengthen and support democracy and campaign for transparency.

judging by the current situation we pakistanis are in that would mean decades of waiting don't you think?
just to educate the masses and have close to 90 percent literacy rate we will have to wait at least 20+ years (my opinion).
all these social changes will only come when we are an educated society so that mean 20 years to educate our public plus another 5-10 to push them towards secularism, so that means for at least 25 years our minorities might not be guaranteed their rights???

 

[M. Sarmad]

@Azlan Haider | You are forgetting that religious or sectarian identity is not the only problem. KSA and Iran are irrelevant examples for us as they have a very strong nationalistic identity and they speak a single language. You take the current social contract away and you'd have a civil war, you wait for a few decades and work towards making the existing structure better while building Pakistaniat, soon enough you would find yourself able to phase out the current system. Pakistan is a new nation state that needs to grow into itself not outwards!

What we need is to develop a very strong nationalistic identity , and for that we need to separate religion from the state and strongly discourage all kind of sectarianism (and provincialism)... The identity crisis we are facing today is very complicated .. All the efforts made by conservative govts. (by trying to distort our history) to make us believe that Pakistan was created in the name of Islam , have only made the situation worse . 67 years and we could not develop a sense of nationalism ... For us , we are Muslims first and Pakistani afterwards ... this concept is inherently flawed ... We can never become a nation until we are "Pakistani" before being anything else ... Religious and Sectarian identity may not be our only problem , but looking at the situation in ME (and AFG) , one can say that it is the greatest threat to our survival (in near future) .... And if we don`t act now , may be there would be no Pakistan (in its current form) after a few decades ... So "waiting" is not an option ..

 

[Kompromat]

What we need is to develop a very strong nationalistic identity , and for that we need to separate religion from the state and strongly discourage all kind of sectarianism (and provincialism)... The identity crisis we are facing today is very complicated .. All the efforts made by conservative govts. (by trying to distort our history) to make us believe that Pakistan was created in the name of Islam , have only made the situation worse . 67 years and we could not develop a sense of nationalism ... For us , we are Muslims first and Pakistani afterwards ... this concept is inherently flawed ... We can never become a nation until we are "Pakistani" before being anything else ... Religious and Sectarian identity may not be our only problem , but looking at the situation in ME (and AFG) , one can say that it is the greatest threat to our survival (in near future) .... And if we don`t act now , may be there would be no Pakistan (in its current form) after a few decades ... So "waiting" is not an option ..

How are you going to convince Punjabis, Sindhis, Balochis, Brahivis, Kashmiris and Pashtuns that they all belong to the same club without being part of an Islamic state?

How are you going to develop Pakistaniat among the above which is strong enough to be called a national identity?

How are you going to stop the above people from taking their racial identity before their national identity?

 

[qamar1990]

@Mugwop @KingMamba @JonAsad @Akheilos @Chak Bamu @WebMaster
please join the convo

 

[EasyNow]

Hmm a very good question... if Pakistan were secular, it would be like the USA. 100's of races united through patriotism and pursuit of a better life.

Yes, the US has resources to deliver those dreams, so can keep it's citizens loyal and full of hope - but Pakistan has an Islamic spirit in society that maintains that same hope and loyalty without cash.

However, by making Islam more and more politicised and actualised in the state mechanics, the more of this inherent hope you are blasting away. Something akin to 'you should never meet your heroes' - Islam is the hero that gives most Pakistani's hope, but the more you force it - the more failures it is linked to - the less hope it will offer. So keep the beautiful Islam untainted and run your country as men not saints.


As a secular country, Pakistan would prioritise development and progress over morality and dogma. You'd trade openly with the whole world and become a more attractive proposition to outsiders.

You'd have an unrestricted banking system, which would encourage savings and reward it well (with high interest). Therefore, also making people more accountable/taxable for their money.

You would have social laws that would be more progressive but also more clear - i.e. one man, one wife and the law would specify clearly any exceptions. Equal access to resources for ALL religions and minorities but clamping down strictly on hate speeches and hate crime.

The arts would be unfettered and encouraged, you'd also give more power to women - opening up so much of Pakistan's latent talent.

Personal religious values would be heightened as people would seek out religion for spiritual benefit - not monetary or political reasons as it is now.


On the negative side, this does mean selling some of your soul. Compromising some principals - but then who is stopping you from applying those principals in your personal lives?

Yes, Interest would be available.

Yes, you would probably see more women in political society, work and business, perhaps leading to increased 'immorality' but who are we kidding about the way things already are..

Alcohol, gambling, prostitution - all of these things would still be illegal as it is in so many secular countries. A secular country's laws, still must be in step with it's social norms - it is just that the law will be the same for everyone.

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

How are you going to convince Punjabis, Sindhis, Balochis, Brahivis, Kashmiris and Pashtuns that they all belong to the same club without being part of an Islamic state?

How are you going to develop Pakistaniat among the above which is strong enough to be called a national identity?

How are you going to stop the above people from taking their racial identity before their national identity?

JI is as islamic as they come yet they didnt support Pakistan in 47 and neither they are supporting now against terrorists. Pan islamic mullahs will bring end to Pakistan in current form.

 

[Kompromat]

judging by the current situation we pakistanis are in that would mean decades of waiting don't you think?
just to educate the masses and have close to 90 percent literacy rate we will have to wait at least 20+ years (my opinion).
all these social changes will only come when we are an educated society so that mean 20 years to educate our public plus another 5-10 to push them towards secularism, so that means for at least 25 years our minorities might not be guaranteed their rights???

Literacy rate has nothing much to do with social change. Yes i strongly believe that Pakistan should continue on the current path till we have built up a fully functional state that is able to service change of this magnitude.

 

[M. Sarmad]

How are you going to convince Punjabis, Sindhis, Balochis, Brahivis, Kashmiris and Pashtuns that they all belong to the same club without being part of an Islamic state?

How were the Punjabis , Biharis , Bengalis , Tamils etc. convinced that they all belonged to the same club ?? How were they stopped from taking their racial identity before their national identity ?

 

[qamar1990]

Two nation theory was based on Islam and proven wrong in 71, no idea why people still think Islam being the only reason for united Pakistan.

let me tell you something
6 months ago my mindset was totally different then today.
if you had asked me if we should make pakistan secular ? i would have said no!
if you would have said islam is not the reason for pakistan is together! …. i would have said that actually it is and if we aren't a country of united people because we are muslims then why is our land split in half? bengel got split into 2, punjab got split in 2, and the homeland of pathans got split into 2, homeland of balochis got split into 2!

Literacy rate has nothing much to do with social change. Yes i strongly believe that Pakistan should continue on the current path till we have built up a fully functional state that is able to service change of this magnitude.

tolerance is all that is needed normally but in our case we need literacy because pakistanis have become very intolerant people and only education will open our eyes. if we were having this discussion in pakistan in the open there would a mob ready to beat us and you know it.

 

[Kompromat]

How were the Punjabis , Biharis , Bengalis , Tamils etc. convinced that they all belonged to the same club ?? How were they stopped from taking their racial identity before their national identity ?

I am expecting an answer from you. Maybe your leftist ideology has a cure for this

 

[qamar1990]

Hmm a very good question... if Pakistan were secular, it would be like the USA. 100's of races united through patriotism and pursuit of a better life.

Yes, the US has resources to deliver those dreams, so can keep it's citizens loyal and full of hope - but Pakistan has an Islamic spirit in society that maintains that same hope and loyalty without cash.

However, by making Islam more and more politicised and actualised in the state mechanics, the more of this inherent hope you are blasting away. Something akin to 'you should never meet your heroes' - Islam is the hero that gives most Pakistani's hope, but the more you force it - the more failures it is linked to - the less hope it will offer. So keep the beautiful Islam untainted and run your country as men not saints.


As a secular country, Pakistan would prioritise development and progress over morality and dogma. You'd trade openly with the whole world and become a more attractive proposition to outsiders.

You'd have an unrestricted banking system, which would encourage savings and reward it well (with high interest). Therefore, also making people more accountable/taxable for their money.

You would have social laws that would be more progressive but also more clear - i.e. one man, one wife and the law would specify clearly any exceptions. Equal access to resources for ALL religions and minorities but clamping down strictly on hate speeches and hate crime.

The arts would be unfettered and encouraged, you'd also give more power to women - opening up so much of Pakistan's latent talent.

Personal religious values would be heightened as people would seek out religion for spiritual benefit - not monetary or political reasons as it is now.


On the negative side, this does mean selling some of your soul. Compromising some principals - but then who is stopping you from applying those principals in your personal lives?

Yes, Interest would be available.

Yes, you would probably see more women in political society, work and business, perhaps leading to increased 'immorality' but who are we kidding about the way things already are..

Alcohol, gambling, prostitution - all of these things would still be illegal as it is in so many secular countries. A secular country's laws, still must be in step with it's social norms - it is just that the law will be the same for everyone.

very good input

 

[Kompromat]

JI is as islamic as they come yet they didnt support Pakistan in 47 and neither they are supporting now against terrorists. Pan islamic mullahs will bring end to Pakistan in current form.

JI ko kuch na kaho. They have seen an electoral annihilation, let it stay this way, soon enough they would disintegrate themselves without us having to eradicate them.

 

[qamar1990]

@Ghareeb_Da_Baal pir sahab tussi idir tushreef lao.
apney wisdom nal sanu bless karo

@DESERT FIGHTER

We've just started debating all this openly @ family.......... in time my friend......... in time......... growing pains...............

your a pathan so let me ask you….. if pakistan were be declared secular what would the reaction of the people in KP and FATA be?