What really happened when Vasco Da Gama set foot in India

[Joe Shearer]

Portuguese were the first global power and preventing them from conquering India was an herculean effort.

Actually you'd be surprised. They were not very good at land warfare at all, and their hegemonic superiority at sea was due to completely different technology developed and honed through decades of bitterly fought naval warfare. Where they had the sea and other sailors to deal with, they reigned supreme. The moment you set them on land, they behaved like fish out of water, to coin a brilliant phrase completely my original invention, and soon turned to the other side and died.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yeah, fascinating history when Europeans came to India. I think this changed the fate of the world. I just cannot imagine why and how the Europeans were able to conquer so much and the culturally superior orient were destroyed. I think the Dutch started it with peoples participation and the joint stock company. When the people found out that they could prosper independently, I think it was a starting point where the clergy lost power, the monarchy gave way, the industrial revolution began - in short renaissance.
So I think its the stock market.

I'd go a bit further if I were you, and look at the striking changes in military organisation that took place through the fifteenth to the nineteenth, even to the twentieth century, where Asia, with the exception of Japan and China, perhaps also Vietnam, was left floundering behind.

 

[Srinivas]

I agree with most of the points Mr.Joe , but the kings and other traders encouraged the explorers. Exploring is like a private enterprise in those days.

They expected trade and wealth through exploring, another reason for exploring through sea is because of Islamic conquests where they blocked the Mediterranean trade routes or extracted more tax in those routes.

Essentially true, under the overwrought prose.

What is not true is the projection of complete ignorance of local conditions made by the writer. da Gama did not sail to India straight; he came through a number of missed steps and diversions.

The summation is fair, except that nobody knew that they were making a judgement on an important factor in the geopolitics of the Indian Ocean for centuries to come. They probably thought that they were dismissing some beggars who thought and behaved beyond their station in life.



Umm, a bit too summary for my taste.

1. Europeans did not encourage explorers; each expedition was measured with avaricious exactitude by its backers, and they wanted return on investment.
2. Various European countries initiated searches for the path to the "Indies", and that includes Indonesia and south east Asia as well as India proper, because of the rich wealth in spices of those countries.
3. There was a peaceful condition prevailing throughout the Indian Ocean area, and traders flourished in those conditions. However, they restricted access, through their own cartels and through the jealous surveillance of their local governments, to Europeans in general. The Muslim world, from Gujarat to Zanzibar, served as a filter to keep out Europeans from the west, and to restrict "Asians" from the east.
4. Attempts to find a direct route through Asia Minor and the Red Sea were doomed to failure, given the attention of the Ottoman Turks to guarding their trade routes and their trade secrets (=super profits, in the accounting sense).
5. The thought arose that there might be another passage. Some explorers sought the legendary North West Passage, a channel north of present-day Canada, thought to be a possible path to the east. Others sought a more southerly route, the most famous being Cristoforo Colombo, or Christopher Columbus, a man obsessed with finding a passage along equatorial latitudes. The Portuguese, themselves an outlier nation rewarded during their break with Spain by the Pope's award to them of all territories east of a line drawn through south America, thus giving them Brazil in their share, and including the right to explore the African coastline, as any annexations or conquests there would be to their share of the globe, pushed along the coast in a series of iterative voyages which took them decades to advance.
6. It was the established Catholic nations who were challenged by the Protestants who got nothing from the Pope but a bad time and grim promises of hell everlasting. On the principle that an enemy's enemy is one's friend, the English and the Dutch slipped in and out of the ranks of pirates. Drake, for instance, or Richard Grenville, were considered pirates by the Spaniards and the Portuguese. To the Iberian nations, all interlopers were criminals; some were violent criminals, and attacked, killed and enslaved other traders (of the Iberian countries - the others attacked and killed did not matter) and these were pirates.
7. The Portuguese record in Indian waters was ferocious. There was nothing whatsoever to distinguish them from the most criminal pirates.

Dear Lord.

Two sets of people being violent does not really bring any similarity to them. I am sorry to say that I don't agree very much with the equation.




I will come to this.

It is surprising how little you Indians know about the Portuguese influence on the Bay of Bengal, especially on Bengal.



Lots. Wait for it, I'm multi-tasking.

There's an absolutely astounding letter written by a Kashmiri professor as an open letter to Geelani. Never read anything like it. He's genuine; people know him and know of him.

 

[Aham Brahmasmi]

pathetic

well, because of their "size" they can not fight like real man(even on Internet ), so they run to their daddy

 

[Aham Brahmasmi]

Yeah, fascinating history when Europeans came to India. I think this changed the fate of the world. I just cannot imagine why and how the Europeans were able to conquer so much and the culturally superior orient were destroyed. I think the Dutch started it with peoples participation and the joint stock company. When the people found out that they could prosper independently, I think it was a starting point where the clergy lost power, the monarchy gave way, the industrial revolution began - in short renaissance.
So I think its the stock market.

they almost destoryed every civilization they found in Asia India,Iran,China,Japan,Indos,Middle East, North Affrican civilizations etc etc.

Iran before whites came to Asia

India

China

Ottomans

 

[Joe Shearer]

Why did the muslims empires stretching from turkey to india not organize militarily. I think they did. I remember reading in history that Lodhi lost to superior technology brought in by Babar. Of course the Hindu kings were the ones who were really left behind, but I think the muslims were not.
probably they had better exposure to technology because they were closer to Europe. Sorry I am rambling on.

No, it's relevant. Please continue

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Interesting piece of fiction , specially the part about Unicorns

Mostly , back in the So called Vasco Di Gama days , Europe was in ways between French , Spanish and British
Gold was a traceable commodity

Trade was normally done via land / sea routes maintained by Muslims countries.

Muslims had lost Granada 150-160 years ago , 1.5 generation ago

Quest began to gather more gold for the new Empires , French - Spanish - British - Portuguese , so they can influence more. More gold = More influence.

Vasco De Gamma / Columbus were same batch one was Portuguese other was Spanish , they wanted to conquer land for their Kings , and this their Kings had allocated them ships / Men to discover the new lands to expand their Empire.

Columbus (Spanish Expedition) reached , America/South America , and started Ethnic cleaning of local cultures and Traditions , as Gun powder / Cannons had been already discovered in Europe

Mean while Mr Vasco De Gamma reached India via Sea route

However , the path was 50% already discovered by other expeditions of the time

Route between Egypt and Europe was controlled by Ottoman Empire , as Trade Tax was collected by Muslims
as trade went thru their countries (Mainly thru Egypt /Syria / Persia to India)


People like Barbosa , and Ottoman Navy controlled the sea route which was known

Both Spanish/Portuguese wanted to avoid Direct war with Ottoman Empire


However as we know there was no Suez Canal , in Egypt otherwise Ottoman Navy would Navigate to India

There was no need of new route as far as Ottoman Empire was concerned as they can do cheaper goods move via Land.


Portuguese and Spanish , had a Alliance , their main enemies were French - British - Dutch around 1500-1560

When Philip II of Spain, I of Portugal, inherited the Portuguese crown in 1580, this began a 60-year union between Spain and Portugal that has since been given the historiographic term of the Iberian Union. Though the realms continued to be administered separately, the Council of Portugal ruled the country and its empire from Madrid. As the King of Spain was also King of Portugal, Portuguese colonies became the subject of attacks by three rival European powers hostile to Spain: the Dutch Republic, England, and France. With its smaller population, Portugal was unable to effectively defend its overstretched network of trading posts, and the empire began a long and gradual decline.


Obviously India had GOLD , lots of it in temples and I am sure Mr Vasco De gamma's mouth must have been watering up when he saw all the Gold in Temples in India

Just like Mr Columbus started his Ethnic cleaning operations in South America , Mr De Gamma was also making sure a Military expedition landed in India in short term future

 

[Basel]

well, because of their "size" they can not fight like real man(even on Internet ), so they run to their daddy

We are not a state who sponsor terror and PM chest thumps on it.

 

[Aham Brahmasmi]

We are not a state who sponsor terror and PM chest thumps on it.

okay I completely trust you

 

[Joe Shearer]

We are not a state who sponsor terror and PM chest thumps on it.

Excuse me? Without even a smile on your face?

 

[Joe Shearer]

thanks for the vote of confidence. I think the communities which were at the crossroads of human migrational paths had the most exposure to technologies. I think the region comprising asia minor, Mediterranean, north Africa had that advantage. China was another region which was a big hub.
In human history , things don't happen in a day. I believe the spadework for the renaissance must have happened a few centuries earlier but I cannot put my finger on what exactly those sequence of events could have been.
Security from foreign invasions?? Most of Europe did not suffer from invasion that was culturally different (except the moors in spain) .. is that right?
I still feel that giving a stake to the common man was the one big factor that differentiated the west from any other culture like Mughals or qing/ming or any other. For eons it was accepted that there would be one king and everyone else would be a subject.
imagine you were a peasant in one of the major Indian kingdoms. What would be the impact to your life were the reigning king be supplanted by someone else. I think minimum. What would be your motivation to contribute to society with ideas.
I think somehow the Europeans let ideas from all people come in and germinate and used it.
any thoughts?

Was that a general question or addressed to me? The reason I ask is because you have raised some interesting points, but not entirely beyond the notice of scholars engaged in this area of research. It might be polite and proper to allow others to have a go first. So if it was not a general question, suppose we leave it for a bit, and see if anybody else has a point of view? What do you say?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Interesting piece of fiction , specially the part about Unicorns

Mostly , back in the So called Vasco Di Gama days , Europe was in ways between French , Spanish and British
Gold was a traceable commodity

Trade was normally done via land / sea routes maintained by Muslims countries.

Muslims had lost Granada 150-160 years ago , 1.5 generation ago

Quest began to gather more gold for the new Empires , French - Spanish - British - Portuguese , so they can influence more. More gold = More influence.

Vasco De Gamma / Columbus were same batch one was Portuguese other was Spanish , they wanted to conquer land for their Kings , and this their Kings had allocated them ships / Men to discover the new lands to expand their Empire.

Columbus (Spanish Expedition) reached , America/South America , and started Ethnic cleaning of local cultures and Traditions , as Gun powder / Cannons had been already discovered in Europe

Mean while Mr Vasco De Gamma reached India via Sea route

However , the path was 50% already discovered by other expeditions of the time

Route between Egypt and Europe was controlled by Ottoman Empire , as Trade Tax was collected by Muslims
as trade went thru their countries (Mainly thru Egypt /Syria / Persia to India)


People like Barbosa , and Ottoman Navy controlled the sea route which was known

Both Spanish/Portuguese wanted to avoid Direct war with Ottoman Empire


However as we know there was no Suez Canal , in Egypt otherwise Ottoman Navy would Navigate to India

There was no need of new route as far as Ottoman Empire was concerned as they can do cheaper goods move via Land.


Portuguese and Spanish , had a Alliance , their main enemies were French - British - Dutch around 1500-1560

When Philip II of Spain, I of Portugal, inherited the Portuguese crown in 1580, this began a 60-year union between Spain and Portugal that has since been given the historiographic term of the Iberian Union. Though the realms continued to be administered separately, the Council of Portugal ruled the country and its empire from Madrid. As the King of Spain was also King of Portugal, Portuguese colonies became the subject of attacks by three rival European powers hostile to Spain: the Dutch Republic, England, and France. With its smaller population, Portugal was unable to effectively defend its overstretched network of trading posts, and the empire began a long and gradual decline.


Obviously India had GOLD , lots of it in temples and I am sure Mr Vasco De gamma's mouth must have been watering up when he saw all the Gold in Temples in India

Just like Mr Columbus started his Ethnic cleaning operations in South America , Mr De Gamma was also making sure a Military expedition landed in India in short term future

Mr. @AZADPAKISTAN2009 by Adrianus Barbarossa, or Barbosa (in your text), did you mean Khaireddin Barbarossa?

Your post was interesting.

 

[Bang Galore]

@Joe Shearer @Bang Galore
Thread of your interest, anything to add?

There is a traditional story of how Vasco da Gama supposedly told a bunch of locals that "we seek Christians and spices". The truth is that the phrase was told alright but not by Vasco da Gama himself but by a Portuguese convict on board who was expendable enough to test the waters. The guy couldn't speak any language understood locally & was taken to some Muslims from Tunis who spoke a little Italian & Spanish & understood some words of Portuguese. It is to their question of "what brought you here" that the famous reply was given.

The contact with the Zamorin ( the European hearing of Samudrathiri) was facilitated by interpretations from Muslim traders who translated from Arabic (which was spoken by some of Vasco da Gama's crew) to Malayalam. This probably lead to the hilarious situation where Vasco da Gama & crew returned to Lisbon convinced that the Zamorin was christian & that Hindu temples they saw, were in fact, churches.

The Portuguese blamed the Muslims for the bad start because of the presents business where they laughed at him & refused to take his presents to the Zamorin. Vasco da Gama met the Zamorin only once before he started to get paranoid thinking that he was in a trap & that his men on shore were being held as hostages. He did take some locals hostage before the matter was resolved.

On his second trip (September 1502), he was a lot more hostile and decided to take revenge for the death of some 40 of his countrymen who were killed some 2 years earlier in a battle with Muslim traders. He set fire to a ship called the Miri which was carrying Muslim pilgrims returning from Mecca and killed some 200 people including women & children. 17 children who survived were converted to Christianity & sent to a monastery in Lisbon. He then caught & strung up some Muslim sailors & then sent their severed heads, hands & feet to the mainland along with a letter demanding compensation for the Portuguese losses. The new Zamorin ignored the letter and the Portuguese sailed further down to Cochin where they were less confrontational and actually met some Christians & did a bit of trading.

Btw, there were many fantastic stories of India & the strange things seen which were "reported" by many who traveled to India over the centuries. I would recommend reading a book by Sam Miller - "A Strange Kind of Paradise". Fun read.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

There is a traditional story of how Vasco da Gama supposedly told a bunch of locals that "we seek Christians and spices". The truth is that the phrase was told alright but not by Vasco da Gama himself but by a Portuguese convict on board who was expendable enough to test the waters. The guy couldn't speak any language understood locally & was taken to some Muslims from Tunis who spoke a little Italian & Spanish & understood some words of Portuguese. It is to their question of "what brought you here" that the famous reply was given.

The contact with the Zamorin ( the European hearing of Samudrathiri) was facilitated by interpretations from Muslim traders who translated from Arabic (which was spoken by some of Vasco da Gama's crew) to Malayalam. This probably lead to the hilarious situation where Vasco da Gama & crew returned to Lisbon convinced that the Zamorin was christian & that Hindu temples they saw, were in fact, churches.

The Portuguese blamed the Muslims for the bad start because of the presents business where they laughed at him & refused to take his presents to the Zamorin. Vasco da Gama met the Zamorin only once before he started to get paranoid thinking that he was in a trap & that his men on shore were being held as hostages. He did take some locals hostage before the matter was resolved.

On his second trip (September 1502), he was a lot more hostile and decided to take revenge for the death of some 40 of his countrymen who were killed in a battle with Muslim traders. He set fire to a ship called the Miri which was carrying Muslim pilgrims returning from Mecca and killed some 200 people including women & children. 17 children who survived were converted to Christianity & sent to a monastery in Lisbon. He then caught & strung up some Muslim sailors & then sent their severed heads, hands & feet to the mainland along with a letter demanding compensation for the Portuguese losses. The new Zamorin ignored the letter and the Portuguese sailed further down to Cochin where they were less confrontational and actually met some Christians & did a bit of trading.

Btw, there were many fantastic stories of India & the strange thing seen which were "reported" by many who traveled to India over the centuries. I would recommend reading a book by Sam Miller - "A Strange Kind of Paradise". Fun read.

Its was interesting to know Europeans at that time considered Goa to be "Rome of the East"

I guess your explanation gives an idea how Goa got such a name.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Its was interesting to know Europeans at that time considered Goa to be "Rome of the East"

I guess your explanation gives an idea how Goa got such a name.

Goa was built long after this psychopath first came to India.