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What is the end

Specialist One

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Can anyone explain to me one thing which i have failed to understand...
Whenever someone in a family dies... or is killed there is resentment against the killer in the family and all the members really want to see the killer dead.... i hope i am right so far...

similarly whenever a soldier is martyred his colleagues his friends and his family members feel the same .. and those who are in forces would be feeling more adrenaline in their blood ... right

now if a miscreant is dieing the same would be the case with their families... brothers and friends.. so isnt it that with the death of each miscreant each terrorist we are making their families and friends ... and even tribes men more vulnerable to being brainwashed by the foreign elements and could easily be converted into suicide bombers by easily misguiding them against the army and by manipulating through money ....

so with each such death are we not converting more suicidal bombers...
i would like to see them dead... but will it be the end.. .isnt it what our foreign enemies desire .. that we keep fighting the miscreants.. and keep this battle running...
please i need sincere advice ..
 
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You kill the planners, organizers and masterminds with twisted ideology who push people to take "revenge". After all if revenge was the only factor, all the 10,000+ families that have suffered from terrorist attacks would also be out there taking revenge against taliban. In fact this only happened to some degree in Swat where lashakrs were organized to fight the terrorists.
 
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The reason human societies have developed State judicial systems is to handle this problem. In a society where most people (say 99.9%) accept that the judicial system is fair, then they are content to let the State judicial system try and punish the killer of their family member. In societies where the judicial system is not supported by enough people, then "might makes right" becomes the system and endless cycles of revenge occur. The reason that this cycle is happening in FATA is because the Pakistani State does not operate a judicial system in FATA that has the confidence of the people of FATA. The reason that the USA attacked Afghanistan and now fires drones into Pakistan is because the people of the USA do not believe that the judicial systems of Afghanistan or Pakistan have given them justice for the people that al Qaeda killed on September 11, 2001.
 
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The reason human societies have developed State judicial systems is to handle this problem. In a society where most people (say 99.9%) accept that the judicial system is fair, then they are content to let the State judicial system try and punish the killer of their family member. In societies where the judicial system is not supported by enough people, then "might makes right" becomes the system and endless cycles of revenge occur. The reason that this cycle is happening in FATA is because the Pakistani State does not operate a judicial system in FATA that has the confidence of the people of FATA. The reason that the USA attacked Afghanistan and now fires drones into Pakistan is because the people of the USA do not believe that the judicial systems of Afghanistan or Pakistan have given them justice for the people that al Qaeda killed on September 11, 2001.


If you are saying that Pakistan and Afghanistan have weak judicial system , I think you are correct 100% on Afghanistan but then again 95% of Afghanistan can't write their name on paper I doubt they can study law

And Pakistan has a very weak Judicial system in regions its tru but it has been like that for 60 years - what changed???? ... simple CIA financed rouge elements in 80's there
people of FATA had no issue with US they are simply sheap headers , their biggest concern was where can they find water , and grass for their sheaps

But commitment from Pakistan has been 100% , I am quite suprised myself how much we have commited ourselves into this ...

a) Supply of item thru trade routes from PK to afghan
b) Army and personnel commitment
c) Relocation of 3 million people , thats like Los Angeles being
relocated from Los Angeles to Vagas and living in tents
d) Loss of civilian lives in mistaken raids and incomplete information

And Pakistan has suffered
a) Loss of Trade, Toursim
b) Loss of Peace for our people
c) Loss of Lives
d) Loss of schools and other infrastructure.

Would 6 billion dollars cover that loss ?? As Kerry Lugar Bill states ??
No obviously not ...

The biggest loss in my opinion has been US , back stabbing and giving India a nuclear deal when they have done absolutely
NOTHING ..........


The reason why the drones are attacking Pakistan is becsue US knows its messed up and now its need to , present a solution to their
shame , so they are shooting blindly in air hoping that they might be able to divert attention from reality

Reality being
a) They made a wrong decision to move in Afghanistan
b) They made a wrong decision to move in Iraq
c) They lost trillions and messed up their own economy and ours
d) Most of its allies started trading with Russia recently


How is people of Pakistan and Pakistani Judicial system suppose to give people of US justice ? When it is not strong enough yet due to interference from outside forces

a) Did we create the culprit ?? the rouge element - NO they were
financed by CIA in 80's

Why don't the American people ask the CIA directors who
approved this rouge group ?? They just said sorry and now
they have their retirement money and they are in Dubai
in their palm island in summer heat

b) Do we have their number on speed dial for rouge elements , No ,
no one in Pakistan knows if these guys really even exist.

I think Pakistan people and Army have done quite enough for last 8-10 years , and the only thing we have recieved is headaches

The end is this

The Allied soliders (mainly 1 country) are coming back home , and their own gov is not supporting them , they are released form their jobs and they can't find any work in their own countries

The Allied soldiers are suffering mental illnesses, due to realities they faced and complete opposite of what they were debreifed in their missions , and now they are in physical tharapies

The peopel in Armies are not bad people 85-95% are honorable ppl , realistically thinking they are there to help the countries , but when they go there and find their roles what exactly they are doing they come home and are left scared....Its their COMMANDARS who are leting them down sitting in airconditioned , homes back home
giving orders with no risk ...

The average , 10,000$ siging bonus solider , who gets 4,000 usd /month has no chance .... if he is injured his future is doomed, while outlaw , mercinaries are getting paid 300$/hour in Iraq (Black water) and they have right to kill

The end is that Bush and Cheny and Co, haved Used amercian tax payers cash to wage a war they had no idea about and it has rouined alot of lives -

I remember reading in news , alot of hard drives mysterioysly were deleted or missing in white house , which included memos and conversations between white house and commander - why did they disappear of course to cover up the orders and decision makers when thing failed ... they had to delete this info to cover up and leave office and let OBAMA clean up the mess -

Otherwise, wouldn't the american ppl deserve to know who ... was the one who casued the rouge group to get away while they were running around in Iraq and destabalizing that country ... and wasting trillions around that time???? that public record has been for ever deleted -

At least in Pakistan when someone is currupt they are at least challenged in courts

All American Judicials rules PROTECT THE HEADS ... from their mistakes and when they kill civilians ??? Immunity to what ... killing Is that just ???? is justice to people of the world ??? Or has the allied force become a modern day ... Roman Civilization they lessons are there in history to be learned from ...

The end is that befoe leaving the region has to be handed over and for now , Pak force is suitable to take over AFGHANISTAN and that is the only possible END to the story ...

Our Army permenently moves in , and blocks all the rouge elements and our police force moves in and controls every thing - and millions and million of Afghans in our cities can move to the province back

US should have formed a strategic partnership with Pakistan on Nuclear technology , and formed a SOLID alliance - on equal grounds , giving it to India does not helps forge trust when our soliders are dieing in battle for US cause


These are the same ppl in 80's same mindset that created , this group , who gave India nuclear technology ... as if nothing changed they live in their bubbles and do not listen to any criticism or comments on their strategy or forigne policies

Civilian life loss in Pakistan side must be at least 20,000-30,000 people becasue remember in Pakistan 1 person normally , is head of family of that person dies the supporting family is also effected , sometimes and we had alot of deaths every week its 30-40 people dieing for past 8 -10 years

But even know Pakistani force is fighting terrism even with our limited resources, and think about the wear and tear on our army ... and equipment ?

If had AWACS and Posiden , Mumbia incident could have been protected but who banned the release of AWACS from US to Pakistan ?? Is that our fault ? We could have tracked any ship leaving and investigated it ..if we head AWACS... so I mean Pakistani Army needs REAL support form its Allies

AWACS, Predetor drones, and Anti Terrorism Machines and Survailence Items and $ to help us blocakade ... Terrorist elements

Not like a pistol gun , and search light ... and ask to go 800 km border and know who is crossing what point

Just before the war was to start

a) Pakistan Should have recieved AWACS E-3 5 units to patrol the FATA area , and look for any vehicle and airships carrying rouge elemens...

b) Pakistan should have recieved Frigates to make sure , no rouge elements leave its
seas to India or 40 helicopters to patrol the sea shores ...

c) Pakistan should have recieved Airborn Hospitals to help support our troops fight
terrorism or helicopters to transport injured soliders etc

I mean sometimes I think about it I just wonder, what could have been if ... the deicion makes on other side had some intelligence ....
 
Last edited:
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Hello,

I am Carl.This is my first visit to site.I am new to this site,but I’ve enjoyed posting in your forums.At last the end is very bad.You kill the planners, organisers and masterminds with twisted ideology who push people to take "revenge". After all if revenge was the only factor, all the 10,000+ families that have suffered from terrorist attacks would also be out there taking revenge against taliban.

Thank you very much and Stay connected with me.
 
.
If you are saying that Pakistan and Afghanistan have weak judicial system , I think you are correct 100% on Afghanistan but then again 95% of Afghanistan can't write their name on paper I doubt they can study law

And Pakistan has a very weak Judicial system in regions its tru but it has been like that for 60 years - what changed???? ... simple CIA financed rouge elements in 80's there
people of FATA had no issue with US they are simply sheap headers , their biggest concern was where can they find water , and grass for their sheaps

But commitment from Pakistan has been 100% , I am quite suprised myself how much we have commited ourselves into this ...

a) Supply of item thru trade routes from PK to afghan
b) Army and personnel commitment
c) Relocation of 3 million people , thats like Los Angeles being
relocated from Los Angeles to Vagas and living in tents
d) Loss of civilian lives in mistaken raids and incomplete information

And Pakistan has suffered
a) Loss of Trade, Toursim
b) Loss of Peace for our people
c) Loss of Lives
d) Loss of schools and other infrastructure.

Would 6 billion dollars cover that loss ?? As Kerry Lugar Bill states ??
No obviously not ...

The biggest loss in my opinion has been US , back stabbing and giving India a nuclear deal when they have done absolutely
NOTHING ..........


The reason why the drones are attacking Pakistan is becsue US knows its messed up and now its need to , present a solution to their
shame , so they are shooting blindly in air hoping that they might be able to divert attention from reality

Reality being
a) They made a wrong decision to move in Afghanistan
b) They made a wrong decision to move in Iraq
c) They lost trillions and messed up their own economy and ours
d) Most of its allies started trading with Russia recently


How is people of Pakistan and Pakistani Judicial system suppose to give people of US justice ? When it is not strong enough yet due to interference from outside forces

a) Did we create the culprit ?? the rouge element - NO they were
financed by CIA in 80's

Why don't the American people ask the CIA directors who
approved this rouge group ?? They just said sorry and now
they have their retirement money and they are in Dubai
in their palm island in summer heat

b) Do we have their number on speed dial for rouge elements , No ,
no one in Pakistan knows if these guys really even exist.

I think Pakistan people and Army have done quite enough for last 8-10 years , and the only thing we have recieved is headaches

The end is this

The Allied soliders (mainly 1 country) are coming back home , and their own gov is not supporting them , they are released form their jobs and they can't find any work in their own countries

The Allied soldiers are suffering mental illnesses, due to realities they faced and complete opposite of what they were debreifed in their missions , and now they are in physical tharapies

The peopel in Armies are not bad people 85-95% are honorable ppl , realistically thinking they are there to help the countries , but when they go there and find their roles what exactly they are doing they come home and are left scared....Its their COMMANDARS who are leting them down sitting in airconditioned , homes back home
giving orders with no risk ...

The average , 10,000$ siging bonus solider , who gets 4,000 usd /month has no chance .... if he is injured his future is doomed, while outlaw , mercinaries are getting paid 300$/hour in Iraq (Black water) and they have right to kill

The end is that Bush and Cheny and Co, haved Used amercian tax payers cash to wage a war they had no idea about and it has rouined alot of lives -

I remember reading in news , alot of hard drives mysterioysly were deleted or missing in white house , which included memos and conversations between white house and commander - why did they disappear of course to cover up the orders and decision makers when thing failed ... they had to delete this info to cover up and leave office and let OBAMA clean up the mess -

Otherwise, wouldn't the american ppl deserve to know who ... was the one who casued the rouge group to get away while they were running around in Iraq and destabalizing that country ... and wasting trillions around that time???? that public record has been for ever deleted -

At least in Pakistan when someone is currupt they are at least challenged in courts

All American Judicials rules PROTECT THE HEADS ... from their mistakes and when they kill civilians ??? Immunity to what ... killing Is that just ???? is justice to people of the world ??? Or has the allied force become a modern day ... Roman Civilization they lessons are there in history to be learned from ...

The end is that befoe leaving the region has to be handed over and for now , Pak force is suitable to take over AFGHANISTAN and that is the only possible END to the story ...

Our Army permenently moves in , and blocks all the rouge elements and our police force moves in and controls every thing - and millions and million of Afghans in our cities can move to the province back

US should have formed a strategic partnership with Pakistan on Nuclear technology , and formed a SOLID alliance - on equal grounds , giving it to India does not helps forge trust when our soliders are dieing in battle for US cause


These are the same ppl in 80's same mindset that created , this group , who gave India nuclear technology ... as if nothing changed they live in their bubbles and do not listen to any criticism or comments on their strategy or forigne policies

Civilian life loss in Pakistan side must be at least 20,000-30,000 people becasue remember in Pakistan 1 person normally , is head of family of that person dies the supporting family is also effected , sometimes and we had alot of deaths every week its 30-40 people dieing for past 8 -10 years

But even know Pakistani force is fighting terrism even with our limited resources, and think about the wear and tear on our army ... and equipment ?

If had AWACS and Posiden , Mumbia incident could have been protected but who banned the release of AWACS from US to Pakistan ?? Is that our fault ? We could have tracked any ship leaving and investigated it ..if we head AWACS... so I mean Pakistani Army needs REAL support form its Allies

AWACS, Predetor drones, and Anti Terrorism Machines and Survailence Items and $ to help us blocakade ... Terrorist elements

Not like a pistol gun , and search light ... and ask to go 800 km border and know who is crossing what point

Just before the war was to start

a) Pakistan Should have recieved AWACS E-3 5 units to patrol the FATA area , and look for any vehicle and airships carrying rouge elemens...

b) Pakistan should have recieved Frigates to make sure , no rouge elements leave its
seas to India
or 40 helicopters to patrol the sea shores ...

c) Pakistan should have recieved Airborn Hospitals to help support our troops fight
terrorism or helicopters to transport injured soliders etc

I mean sometimes I think about it I just wonder, what could have been if ... the deicion makes on other side had some intelligence ....

yaar I am not interested in your war on terror or civil war in pakistan as that is your business but why do pakistanis love 2 drag india into all its problems. if a bird falls from the sky and dies in karachi some people in pakistan will say the bird died because of pollution from india. your allies can give you what they want that is your concerns. nobody gave india anything. we are buying nuclear generators from usa. if your allies give you frigates and that makes you keep your civilians away from india then india will be silly to complain.
 
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You are right. There is no end. But in all times war ends.
Its going the same situation as at the India partition time.
Hindus were looted and killed in Pakistan side and the same happened to Muslim in Indian side.
When imperialism divides countries they do create hurt and fear between the nations of that country. That they could not combine again.
Plus to this all is that, the Pakistan nation is morally bankrupted.
regrads
 
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Can anyone explain to me one thing which i have failed to understand...
Whenever someone in a family dies... or is killed there is resentment against the killer in the family and all the members really want to see the killer dead.... i hope i am right so far...

similarly whenever a soldier is martyred his colleagues his friends and his family members feel the same .. and those who are in forces would be feeling more adrenaline in their blood ... right

now if a miscreant is dieing the same would be the case with their families... brothers and friends.. so isnt it that with the death of each miscreant each terrorist we are making their families and friends ... and even tribes men more vulnerable to being brainwashed by the foreign elements and could easily be converted into suicide bombers by easily misguiding them against the army and by manipulating through money ....

so with each such death are we not converting more suicidal bombers...
i would like to see them dead... but will it be the end.. .isnt it what our foreign enemies desire .. that we keep fighting the miscreants.. and keep this battle running...
please i need sincere advice ..


What do you think should be done then? let them ruin pakistan the same way they ruined afghanistan?

If my family member kills an innocent and this family member is jailed/punished for his crime, i will never become another killer just because my family member got punishment for his crime. that is a week logic you presented.
 
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Darkness can not be finished with darkness , you need light to kill darkness , in case of Pakistan we need light of Iman,Sacrifice,brotherhood,love,patience,unity.

Those who are suffering can feel the pain of terrorism , the terrorists should understand that Islam never spread through terrorism and bomb blast , it is just like a man try to eliminate darkness with sword.:D
 
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End will come when we will annihilate the race of TTP & its supporters....
 
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Darkness can not be finished with darkness , you need light to kill darkness , in case of Pakistan we need light of Iman,Sacrifice,brotherhood,love,patience,unity.

Those who are suffering can feel the pain of terrorism , the terrorists should understand that Islam never spread through terrorism and bomb blast , it is just like a man try to eliminate darkness with sword.:D

Not more religion - Religion has been the bane of Islamic societies , Every Tom, Dick and Harry is giving out fatwas and misinterpreting Islam for their own selfish goals.

Less of religion and more of good education will help the nation. :cheers:
 
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Can anyone explain to me one thing which i have failed to understand...
Whenever someone in a family dies... or is killed there is resentment against the killer in the family and all the members really want to see the killer dead.... i hope i am right so far...

similarly whenever a soldier is martyred his colleagues his friends and his family members feel the same .. and those who are in forces would be feeling more adrenaline in their blood ... right

now if a miscreant is dieing the same would be the case with their families... brothers and friends.. so isnt it that with the death of each miscreant each terrorist we are making their families and friends ... and even tribes men more vulnerable to being brainwashed by the foreign elements and could easily be converted into suicide bombers by easily misguiding them against the army and by manipulating through money ....

so with each such death are we not converting more suicidal bombers...
i would like to see them dead... but will it be the end.. .isnt it what our foreign enemies desire .. that we keep fighting the miscreants.. and keep this battle running...
please i need sincere advice ..

The reason for so few answers is that there are no right or wrong answers here. It is a catch 22 situation. Damned if you do and doomed if you dont. We have tried the "dont respond" policy for 5-6 yrs and that did not help us. We were still subjected to suicidal attacks.
The problem here is the lack of a justice system and clear vision of what this war entails on the part of pakistan and US. While US designs may be clear, they missed the boat big time by not throwing in money to develop the country when there was no significant insurgency. Developement and infrastructure and consequently jobs may have won them many more friends than outright war and torture. Similarly, not understanding the structure of the Afghan society and its tribal nature and interrivalries, has meant that the US has alienated a great majority of the ethnic Pakhtuns. failure to close the border and enforce control over who crosses over and through where means that there is a constant source of supply and hiding palces through the porous border which keeps the conflict alive. The ywould have done their own forces a great service by mining and fencing the border, with control point s of entry with an adequate system of transport to the nearest exit system, on both sides of the border, and it would have been a heck of a lot cheaper than what they are having to spend today in loss of lives and daily expenditure on a large force. this along with reasonable governance may have won them a lot of friends.
On pakistan's part, this is a mess which has many factors to it. We were forced into a war where we were given no choices, and the army has always had reservations over this war, although they have muddied the water by accepting american aid. We have always maintained that the options presented by us were never entertained. We handed over more culprits that anyone else and all that we got was "DO more". American policy of appeasment of the Indians may have been borne out of necessity, but not treating pakistan on an equal footing has created more resentment amongst our people. Add to that constant and persistent mismanagement and greed on the part of our leadership has led to a hiatus which has been filled by many local forces with varying intentions.
The NWFP is a couldrewn where many a fires have been stoked and kept going for various reasons by various vested interests. The first major interest is the local tribal leadership/groups whom we and indeed the US supported and armed to the teeth both for the insurgency in Afghanistan and Kashmir. Being a force ,i thas acquired a dynamics of its own and wants to perpetuate war to keep their earnings and support intact. As they need money for this they have approached and found various vested interests intent in keeping Pakistan unstable. The other factor are the genuine sympathisizers of Afghanistan and its local populace on the basis of islamic and more importantly ethnic brotherhood who are mostly involved in cross border attacks but are not loath to attack Pakistan Army if the need arises, although they mostly plan attacks on convoys of US aid.
The element of foreign hand may not be an independant factor but may actually fit in to this particular scenario. They merely provide money and point at targets to attack. However, the perpetratoras in most cases are local. They may have inside help mainly from Ex force personnall mainly on religious grounds and on the basis of affiliations in the past.
The key question is how to extract oneself from the mess like this.
I will try and answer this later.
Araz
 
. .
Hello,

I am Carl.This is my first visit to site.I am new to this site,but I’ve enjoyed posting in your forums.At last the end is very bad.You kill the planners, organisers and masterminds with twisted ideology who push people to take "revenge". After all if revenge was the only factor, all the 10,000+ families that have suffered from terrorist attacks would also be out there taking revenge against taliban.

Thank you very much and Stay connected with me.



Carl,

My good man---those 10000 families are taking revenge----there have been over a million muslims killed since then due to the war started in 2001----.

Over a million muslims dead for 3000 americans and there is no end in sight yet. In civilized societies, the effected families push their govt to do their biddins.
 
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