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What is India?

Logic


however; in any discussion one has to begin by acknowledging what has been presented as a problem

See, all this is problem solving - but if you begin by not even acknowledging the problem, then problem solving is a mute point, won't you agree?

The article by the academic points to a problem, she then raises questions that may help focus the debate and the discussion -- however indian interlocutors here won't even acknowledge the problem, instead they want to hide this failure behind the skirts of democracy - as if democracy is a excuse ofr failure or inefficiency -- this suggets to me a wrapped view of democracy and a feeble intellect, neither of these things ought to inform our understanding of the Indian role in the world, won't you agree?
 
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"Unlike China, its rival rising power, India lacks a grand strategy or concept of its role in the world. India thinks it should be a great power but has no clear vision of its path. In contrast, China thinks it is a great power and expends a great deal of time and energy outlining its "peaceful rise" to itself and the world.

the learned academic suggests that the reason India seems to have no clear vision is the lack of discussion and debate about this role:

First Indian vision is different from Chinese Vision ..
Just because she doesnt know about Indian Vision that doesnt mean Indian Vision doesnt exist or not discussed .
its just that Chinese are aggressive doesnt means they have vision ..
Actually it means they lack vision because vision means understanding world , its direction and how to fit your perspective yourself in that world . Chinese lack that vision because they dont understand the world Perspective .
Marxist see everything in red .. Ruling class and exploited class. and they want to be ruling class .
they ignored the power of human universal consiousness to evolve and deve;op new perspective and thats why they always failed .
Coping western capitalism without its core respect of individual in a evolving society leads to doom ..
Military power is never a gurantee of victory .. look back at the history ..
the biggest Power always lost because they failed to respect humanity and its core values
 
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Assasino

I'm glad you have chosen to not go defensive and instead seek to understand, I appreciate this demonstration openness to reason:

The learned academics points out:

the learned academic suggests that the reason India seems to have no clear vision is the lack of discussion and debate about this role:

There is nothing to appreciate. This is not in anyway a departure from my earlier posts, which you haven't bothered to respond to.

There is a vast amount of discussion on this topic in India, and far, far more than China.

China has a very narrow spectrum of debate, and most educated Chinese can express only a certain range of opinions within the framework of the CPC.

What China has however, is a totalitarian regime which can take big steps and quell dissent, if necessary, using the iron fist.

The learned academic here has simplified Tianxia, so even you may understand it in the way she intends you to. She then goes on to explain one of the reasons why India does not have a clear visionof her role in the world, since the last time India did have a vision of it's role, it failed:

I don't see why you keep repeating 'learned academic'. Does it somehow add to the validity of the article?

The 'learned academic' seems to have absolutely no understanding of India's history, and she is simply confusing herself and the reader.

The reason why India doesn't seem to have a clear policy, is quite simply because of coalition politics. It doesn't get clearer than this.

'Tianxia' means absolutely nothing to me, and I suspect, doesn't figure in Chinese decision making, short term or long.
As I said, Chinese policy is dictated by what's good for the CPC, and what's good for China. It doesn't concern itself with lofty ethical concepts while taking decisions.

Now, you suggest that "democracy" is the reason for India's failure - but perhaps it is as the academic suggests that it is the lack of discussion and debate.

As I said, there is a vast amount of discussion and debate, and I cannot understand how anybody can possibly insinuate that there is more debate in China than in India.

Also, there has been no 'failure'. India has done very well for a poor country cobbled together with smaller states of people who speak 30 different languages and believe in 30 different ideologies.

China and India are two different societies, and to analyze the situation in simplistic terms is simply indulging in egoistic nonsense reserved for defence forums.
 
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Interesting posts from both - Logic suggests Indian "vision" of her role in the world is different from China -- fair enough, but perhaps you can expand of this , what is this Indian role, what is it's intellectual framework and where has it been articulated.

Assasino, in a more beliigerent tone, asserts that there is more discussionin Indian than in China about the role the country ought to take - - perhaps assasin imagines this a question of whose's bigger -- it's not. other wise I'm sure more of that in India, for sure.

Assasino takes refuge in the position that Indian failure to discuss and debate the issue is a function of democracy, this is a gross mispresetation of democracy. He adds "'Tianxia' means absolutely nothing to me.."

As i have tried to explain to you, just because you do not acknowledge the existence of the sun, it does not mean that the sun does not exist -- I advise you to drop the belicose tone and focus on this important discussion.

the learned academic asks: What is important to India? How will India interact to secure that which it thinks is important to India of the future?

These are basic questions and why some should respond to simple questions with hostility is curious and rather sad for me.
 
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Interesting posts from both - Logic suggests Indian "vision" of her role in the world is different from China -- fair enough, but perhaps you can expand of this , what is this Indian role, what is it's intellectual framework and where has it been articulated.

Assasino, in a more beliigerent tone, asserts that there is more discussionin Indian than in China about the role the country ought to take - - perhaps assasin imagines this a question of whose's bigger -- it's not. other wise I'm sure more of that in India, for sure.

Assasino takes refuge in the position that Indian failure to discuss and debate the issue is a function of democracy, this is a gross mispresetation of democracy. He adds "'Tianxia' means absolutely nothing to me.."

As i have tried to explain to you, just because you do not acknowledge the existence of the sun, it does not mean that the sun does not exist -- I advise you to drop the belicose tone and focus on this important discussion.

the learned academic asks: What is important to India? How will India interact to secure that which it thinks is important to India of the future?

These are basic questions and why some should respond to simple questions with hostility is curious and rather sad for me.

Alright muse, I've had enough of your sanctimonious attitude. Thanks for an 'enlightening' discussion.
 
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Assasino

Come on now - why are you getting hot at me - honestly, why get hot at me?
 
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Muse,

If you understood the Han culture and its nuances, you would be able to understand the Chinese mind.

“Tian xia” is one of the most frequently used words in ancient Chinese classics. Literally meaning “All under Heaven” or “All the land under Heaven”, it was used by ancient Chinese to refer to the whole world as they knew or imagined. It is different both from Heaven, which is above us, and from the smaller parts within it. As something different from Heaven, tian xia is actually the intersecting point of the “tian dao” or Heavenly Dao and “ren dao” or Human Dao. In other words, the principle regulating tian xia is the HeavenlyDao in the form of Human Dao. As something different from smaller parts within it, tian xia is the ideal towards which ordinary people approach and by which their everyday activities are judged. In a famous passage in the Confucian classics Great Learning, tian xia is at the top of a hierarchy of ideas: tian xia (the world), guo (states), jia (families), shen (individual persons), which is followed by a series of ideas with regards to the individual persons: xin (minds), yi (will), zhi (knowledge)….

  Though the word “guo” or state is mentioned here, the ancient Chinese minds typically care more about tian xia or the world, which is supposed to be shared by everybody under tian or Heaven, than about guo, which is ruled by a jia (family) – the common Chinese equivalent of the English word “state”, guo jia, actually is composed of the two words respectively meaning state and family. The most famous contrast between “tian xia” and “guo” was made by Gu Yanwu (1613-1682), who said: “There is the perishing (wang) of guo, there’s also the perishing of tian xia. The changing of names and titles (of dynasties) is the former, while blocking of ren [humanity] and yi[righteousness] even to the degree of eating each other like beasts is the latter…. Therefore one knows to protect tian xia before he knows to protect his guo. Protecting guo is the obligations of guo’s emperors, ministers and officials, while protecting is the duty of everybody, including those in the lowest rank.” Here Gu seems to be making a distinction between “institutional obligations” and “natural duties” in John Rawls’s sense: what one owes to tian xia is a natural duty, which needs no justification, while what one owes to a guo or state is an institutional obligation, which needs justification on the basis of one’s natural duties.

  This contrast between tian xia and guo/jia was noticed by many modern Chinese thinkers when they tried to understand the meaning of nation-states when people’s obligation to their guo/jia justified by their duty to the supposedly everybody’s tian xia was severely challenged by some nation-states who neither belonged to the Chinese guo/jia, nor accepted the claim that the Chinese guo/jia was the embodiment of the principle of tian xia. To many Chinese thinkers, the trouble is not only the fact that this claim was not recognized by Western “barbarous” powers, but also the fact that a nation that traditionally care more about tian xia than about guo/jia is extremely vulnerable to foreign invaders in the age dominated by a system of nation-states developed first in the West. Though few of them wanted to give up their claim for the moral superiority of this idea of tian xia, many of these Chinese thinkers warned that if we are going to survive as Chinese at all, we should have our own sense of national identity and national dignity defined according to the game rules of this world of nation-states, rather than defined according to our traditional understanding of tian xia.

  While Modern Chinese thinkers like Liang Qichao (1873-1929) and Liang Shuming (1893-1988) referred to the traditional idea of tian xia in order to remind the Chinese people of the importance of developing something between tian xia and jia (family) while respecting their values, that is, the importance of cultivating the “group life” in Liang Shuming’s words, contemporary Chinese thinkers like Shen Hong and Zhao Tingyang referred to the idea of tian xia in order to claim that the traditional Chinese political culture contains important insights that might be helpful in solving the problems facing us at the global level.

  The most important problem in our times of globalization, according to Zhao Tingyang, is the fact that the system of nation-states has become outdated: it is irrelevant when it comes to many problems at the global level. As a reaction to this situation, some alternative projects have been proposed, or even pursued, but none of them, in Zhao’s view, is satisfactory, because all of them are afflicted by the problem of failure to really go beyond the horizon of the model of nation-state. The United Nations is basically still a “world organization” rather than a “world institution”; the difference between the two is that while a “world institution” needs an idea of “the world” that transcends nations as its basis, a “world organization” is still an international arrangement. In theory, the UN has the problem of trying to integrate the two incompatible things, that is, pluralism and universalism, into a coherent unity; in practice, the UN has the problem of failure to do anything that any of the powers in the world does not agree upon. It is true that the United States is now the only superpower in the world, but then the UN seems to be even weaker compared with the USA in implementing its wills. Here comes the idea that the world is turned to be a new empire, an empire of the age of globalization. This “global empire”, as Michael Hardt and Antonio Negri described in their Empire, is to Zhao’s idea actually a model of American imperialism, in which America is not only the overwhelmingly powerful game player, but also the sole game rule maker. Thus “the United States managed to become the sole outlaw state in the world game.” (Zhao, p. 105) The fact that America is now behaving lawlessly, in Zhao’s view, is not only a result of the imperialist ambition of the USA, but also a result of the fact that the world does not yet have a “world idea”, neither does it have a world institution and the power to support it. “It is this”, Zhao said, “that is the severe problem posed in our times.” (Ibid)

  The traditional Chinese idea of tian xia, thought Zhao, is a good candidate for this kind of world idea. Basically the idea tian xia has the following three levels of meaning:

  Firstly it is its geographical sense, referring to “all the lands under heaven” in the geographical sense. It amounts to the “di” (earth) in the traditional Chinese triad of “tian (heaven), di (earth), ren (people)”, or the whole world that can be inhabited by human beings.

  Secondly it is its psychological sense, referring to the mentality of all those who live upon the earth, or what Chinese calls “min xin” or “popular sentiments”. In traditional Chinese political culture, having supreme power over tian xia in the geographical sense is not “de tian xia” or “acquiring the world” in the real sense. “Acquiring tian xia” in the real sense is to have support by all the people on the earth and under the heaven.

  Thirdly it is its ethical-political sense, referring to the ideal of Utopia of everybody under heaven treat each other like members of one family. What is special with this part of the idea of tian xia is that in it there is an imagination of and aspiration for a certain “world institution”, and a certain “world government” supported by it.

  Compared with the Western idea of “the world”, the Chinese idea of tian xia is, according to Zhao, a philosophical rather than scientific idea, a conceptually completed world that contains all the possible meanings of the world and excludes none of them. Compared with the Husserl’s idea of “the life world”, which is also filled with human meanings, the idea of tian xia contains the institutional dimension that the idea of lifeworld lacks. Compared with the Christian world-view, the Chinese idea of tian xia is not afflicted with all kinds of divisions, conflicts and struggles, and does not deprive us of the ability to imagine a perfect future in this world, the human world.

  It is interesting to note when he was arguing for the importance of the idea of tian xia to our times, Zhao Tingyang was criticizing Habermas and Rawls as well. Zhao’s criticism of Rawls is very harsh. Rawls’s thinking follows the line of Kant, which is regarded by Zhao as the best one can do before one goes beyond the paradigm of the non-world. But, according Zhao, Rawls’s idea of “law of peoples” implies two gravely dangerous ideas: the refusal to extend the principle of difference, which is in favor of the disadvantaged, from the domestic societies to the global society, and the suggestion that the so-called “liberal and decent peoples” are justified not to tolerate the outlaw states. “Rawls’s theory amounts to advocating a new imperialism, which is exactly what is carried on by the USA, a country that is willing to invest more in wars than to in the orderly international community.” (Zhao, p. 98)

  Compared with Rawls, Habermas received less harsh criticism from Zhao Tingyang. Habermas, in Zhao’s view, neglected two critical questions. On the one hand, Habermas does not see that some matters can never be agreed upon by different parties, however rational a dialogue that has been undergone through might be, and even though the parties concerned have understood each other perfectly. On the other hand, some issues involve immediate interests, which would be lost if no action is taken immediately. In addition to these two problems, Habermas’s approach is wrong mainly because it has still not gone beyond the typically Western habit of taking entities like “individuals” and “nations/states” as the decisive units of consideration. By contrast, in Chinese philosophy the basic unit of consideration is a relational structure, such as family and tian xia. A philosophy based on “relationships” instead of “individuals” thus provides “the view from everywhere” rather than “the view from somewhere”. (Zhao, p. 108)

  2. “View from Everywhere” vs. “View from Somewhere”

  Although the idea of tian xia is considered by Zhao Tingyang to be able to provide a view from everywhere rather than a view from somewhere, Zhao himself was making this claim from a very clearly expressed “somewhere”: China. The introduction to his book The System of Tian Xia: An Introduction to A Philosophy of World Institution” is titled “Why should we discuss the Chinese world-view?” Zhao’s answer to this question is put forward against the background of the so-called “China’s rise” or even “China threat”.

  The reason why we should clearly state the Chinese conception of the world, according to Zhao, is that China’s importance in thinking should match its importance in economy. And this is also required by China’s now growing responsibility to the world. “China threat” or “China’s rise”, two phrases reflecting the growing importance of China in the world from different positions, are both misconceptions of China. The former is a negative misconception of an “Other” by the non-Chinese, while the latter is a positive (self-)misconception of the Chinese themselves. In some sense, every developed countries or large countries are threats to others, because they consume large amount of energy, and create pressure upon others. But the key issue is to identify China’s possible contributions and responsibility for the world, or to redefine the positive meaning of the idea of “China”. Zhao said:

  “To the world, the positive meaning that China can contribute is to become a new type of power, a power that is responsible to the world, a power that is different from various empires in the world history. To be responsible to the world, rather than merely to one’s own country, is, theoretically speaking, a perspective of the Chinese philosophy, and practically speaking, a brand new possibility, that is, to take ‘tian xia’ as a preferred unit of analysis of political/economic interests, to understand the world from the perspective of tian xia, that is, to analyze problems with ‘the world’ as the unit of thinking, going beyond the Western mode of thinking in terms of nation/state, to take responsibility to the world as one’s own responsibility, and to create a new world idea and a new world institution. World idea and world institution are values and orders that this world has ever lacked. Both the Great Britain, the power over the world in the past, and the USA, the power over the world now, have no other ideas than the idea of nation/state, and no other considerations than their own national interests, and with regards to the administration of the world they have had no legitimacy either in political or in philosophical senses. The reason is that their ‘world thinking’ is nothing but advocating their particular values, and universalizing their own values. …The problem is not that the Western nations do not think about the world; actually they always do. But ‘to think about the world’ and ‘to think from the perspective of the world’ are two totally different spheres of thinking. With regards to world politics, the Chinese world-view, or its theory of tian xia, is the only theory that takes into consideration the legitimacy of the world order and the world institution, because only the Chinese world-view possesses the idea of ‘tian xia’ as a perspective of analysis that is higher and larger than ‘nation’. Therefore our real problem is what kind of obligation that China is prepared to take for the world, and what kind of ideas China is prepared to create for the world.” (Zhao, p. 3-4)

  That is to say, the real importance of China to the world is that only in Chinese tradition there is a way of thinking that is against not only other powers’ egocentric thinking, but also its own egocentric thinking. Here Zhao seems to imply that according to this tradition, a “threat from China” would thus become a “threat against China” as well, and the only correct understanding of “China rise” is the rise of China’s responsibility to the world -- not a responsibility in the sense of a “mission” to universalize its values and distribute them all over the world, but in the sense of a duty to “think of tian xia from the perspective of tian xia”, and to regard nobody as others or outsiders, because in relation to tian xia there are, by definition, no outsiders.

  The core of Zhao’s idea, I think, is to argue for a cosmopolitan order that calls for a higher sense of responsibility rather than a stronger sense of power and hegemony, and to argue for it from a perspective that is neither other-worldly transcendental, nor this-worldly utilitarian, but in a sense this-worldly transcendental. Zhao regards this “immanent transcendental” perspective as “ontological” and “a prior”, but I would rather interpret it as a perspective concerning “who we are” or “who we want to be” instead of “what we have” or “how much we have”, nor “what we should do” as one would think on a deontological position. A cosmopolitan order or an order of tian xia is justified not from any particular interest positions, nor from any supposedly universalized or universalizeble interest positions, which is the core of Habemas’s version of Kantianism, but from the perspective of tian xia itself, which is the “ontological condition” for our happiness, or our “well-being”, which is our real being. In other words, a cosmopolitan order, or the peaceful coexistence and cooperation among all the peoples under heaven, is justified neither on the basis of the instrumental value of coexistence and cooperation, nor on the basis of some other-worldly meanings, but on the basis of the this-worldly immanent values of coexistence and cooperation.

  A utilitarian justification for coexistence and cooperation is limited because interest-relations between different persons or different groups of people could easily change with time, situation and particular considerations of the people concerned at particular moments. If one’s interest is the major reason for his or her engagement in the coexistence and cooperation, he or she may well break this relationship easily for the very same reason of self-interest.

  One may then say that coexistence and cooperation should be justified by long-term rather than short-term interests: in the long run cooperation between different peoples is beneficial to each of them. Even if the current cooperation is not very beneficial to us, we may say, we can rely on our long-term interest-calculation, which would tell us that we would be guaranteed of a share of benefit of the cooperation in the future sooner or later. At first sight this way of thinking seems much better than the above one, the one based on short-term interest relations. On closer look, however, it is also somehow problematic. Actually, those who argue for competition rather than for cooperation are making the same type of consideration: although competition on the basis of self-interests is harmful in many cases, it will bring about beneficial results in the long run according to certain laws or meanings governing human society or human history as a whole. Behind both arguments we can perhaps see the following same way of thinking: to base our hope or activity on our conviction of some deep-seated laws or meanings of human society and history, no matter what these laws and meanings say about the result of our hope or action. What is problematic about this way of thinking is that in human world, what our future will be like depends, to a large degree, on what we choose to do now and here, rather than some hidden or deep-seated laws and meanings. To justify something on the ground that it will bring us beneficial results in the future according to certain transcendental goals or objective laws could lead, in my view, to easing our sense of urgency with regard to what we should do now and here, while it is much more dangerous in our times than in previous periods for us to sit and wait until what Kant called “providence” or “the secret plan of Nature”, what Hegel called the “cunning of Reason”, or what Marx called the “law of history”, show us what our real destiny will be in the remote future. In our times, modern science has already peeped into human genes, weapons of mass destruction can be easily used for different reasons, and large scale harmful ecological changes has begun to influence our everyday life. This means that what we choose to do now can easily delete any chance of our further choices in the future, and we are no longer in the situation where we can be sure that any mistake now can be corrected and its consequence be compensated in the long run. This concerns the very “being” of us, rather than the mere “having” of us. Against this background it is really very important to emphasize our (Chinese) responsibility that is growing together with our economic and technological power, and to consider the problem of the world from the perspective of the world itself, rather than the perspective of any particular interests. This is the implication in Zhao Tingyang’s idea of tian xia, which is very important, indeed.

  3. “View from Everywhere” as “Ideal Role Taking”

  To see tian xia from the perspective of tian xia itself is to justify coexistence and cooperation on the basis of the immanent non-utilitarian value of coexistence and cooperation itself, and to say that coexistence and cooperation have an immanent non-utilitarian value in them is to say that to live together with each others in a friendly and cooperative way is to live in a genuinely human way: when we are asked to define the meaning of a genuinely human life, we have to mention friendship and cooperation and include them in that definition. For this kind of thinking I want to give a formulation that is less metaphysical than Zhao’s as follows on the basis of my understanding of Confucianism.

  The focus of Confucianism is to teach how to be a human being in the full sense. To be a human in the full sense, according to Confucius, is to cultivate “ren” in ourselves. “Ren” is the kernel concept of Confucianism, and it is composed of “人” "(man) and “二”(two). One becomes a human individual in the full sense only through interaction with other people; “intersubjectivity” comes before “subjectivity” in this sense. Interaction with other people is first of all a process of getting mature as a human being, or a process of learning to be a human being in the full sense, instead of a mere process of benefiting each other. The first passage of the Analectics records the Master’s saying that "Is it not pleasant to learn with a constant perseverance and application? Is it not delightful to have friends coming from distant quarters? Is he not a man of complete virtue, who feels no discomposure though men may take no note of him?” (Analectics, Ch. 1) What is most relevant to the topic of this paper is the second sentence: “is it not delightful to have friends coming from distant quarters”. Having friends coming from distant quarters is something delightful, and it is delightful by itself, not because of any other things. Of the same nature is “learning with constant perseverance and application”. It is also something that is pleasant by itself and not because of anything else. Put these two sentences together we may say that Confucius teaches us both to love others and to educate or cultivate ourselves, and these two things are actually closely connected with each other: according to Confucius, loving others is a great way of cultivating ourselves, or a great way for us to learn to be human beings in the full sense. That is why the concept “ren” is so important in the doctrine of Confucius and later Confucians. It is, of course, not an easy thing to love others; otherwise it would not be so important to our personal development. “Others” are others because they are different from us, and it is a great challenge for us to learn to deal with differences between people. To have a harmonious relation with others is not to reduce all the differences between them and us. That is what Confucius means when he says that “the gentleman aims at harmony, not uniformity; the small man prefers uniformity, not harmony.” (Analectics, Ch. 12) Harmony, according to Confucianism, is a relation between different elements, like what we have in a “thick soup”. Given the differences and diversities between different people, it is only natural that misunderstandings can arise from time to time. In order to deal with this kind of situation, Confucius asks us to be patient, to be optimistic, and not to give up easily in striving for mutual understanding and trust. That is why the third sentence of the first paragraph of the Analectics goes like this: “Is he not a man of complete virtue, who feels no discomposure though men may take no note of him?” (Analectics, Ch.1)

  If we expand our understanding of coexistence and cooperation as the “ontological condition” for our (well-)being, then we can see that when we are engaged in friendly coexistence and cooperation, we should not only avoid trying to benefit us alone, but also avoid trying to benefit others according to our own understanding of “benefits” or “interests”. The first principle in Confucianism in dealing with others is “Not to do to others as you would not wish done to yourself.” (Analectics, Ch. 12) This, as we all know, is the Confucian version of the “Golden Rule”. In addition to this basically negative rule there is another Confucian rule, a positive one: “Now the man of perfect virtue, wishing to be established himself, seeks also to establish others; wishing to be enlarged himself, he seeks also to enlarge others.”(Analectics, Ch.6))Here the expressions “to establish others” and “to enlarge others” should not be understood as simply “making others live the same kind of life as we do”. It is well-known that to impose what we think to be good upon other people very often inflict great harm upon them instead. To have the view of tian xia in our times means that we should not only do good things for others, but also respect others’ understanding of the meaning of “a good life”. In order to show our respect for other people’s right to interpret the meaning of “good”, and, in order to seek mutual understanding between different people (and different peoples) over the problem “what is a good life”, we should take an active part in cooperation not only in trade, finance and economy in general, but also in culture, in cultural exchange and intellectual dialogue.

  What is said above is, contrary to Zhao Tingyang’s view, not very different from Habermas’s position. Or in other words, the traditional Chinese idea of “tian xia” can be translated into the language of Habermas’s theory of communicative action. Both Habermas and Zhao Tingyang want to find some a prior condition for our being as human beings, but it is Habermas, instead of Zhao, who seems to be closer to Confucius: Habermas, like a good Confucian typically would do, starts from what is nearby, that is, everyday communication, but Zhao argues that tian xia, the least probable Utopia, has the “logical precedence” over every other orders. Zhao does not see that with Habermas, as with Confucius, subjectivity and intersubjectivity presuppose each other, rather than the latter unilaterally depends on the former. Like many other people, Zhao does not see clearly that Habermas’s idea of “ideal speech situation” is not a purely regulative idea, but also something constitutive, or something we have already presupposed if interpersonal communication is to be possible at all. And Habermas needs his theory of dialogue or argumentation not only because of the importance of dialogue and argumentation to decision-making on domestic, international and global issues, but also because of the importance of study of dialogue and argumentation to answering some key questions in theory of knowledge, morality and law, such as whether it is still possible to keep and defend the ideas of truth, justice, and goodness, and why we should bother to be moral at all. These questions were answered by appealing to traditional world-views in the past, and thus were not real questions at all. In our times, however, they become questions just because they no longer have, if any, ready-made answers. Now both Confucius and Habermas can be said of accepting Herbert Mead’s thesis of “individualization through socialization” (See Habermas 1992, pp. 149-204). With the help of this thesis, we can see that to a person who has become a mature individual through a process of social interaction in which rationalized social norms are internalized in him, “why moral” is a problem that has already been solved in the everyday life before it is raised in expert discourse. At a higher level, in our times, one is developed into a mature individual not only through a process of socialization in one particular cultural community, but also through a process of being engaged in the process of communication between different cultural communities in the global society as well as in domestic societies. A mature individual is one who has learnt to take everybody’s perspective, which is called by Mead (and Habermas) “the ideal role taking”: “In moral discourse, the ethnocentric perspective of an unlimited communication community, all of whose members put themselves in each individual’s situation, worldview, and self-understanding, and together practice an ideal role taking (as understood by G. H. Mead).” (Habermas 1996, p. 162) This, I think, is just what Zhao Tingyang means by “the view from everywhere”.

  Confucianism, of course, can be and does have been interpreted in many ways. What I have proposed above is more or less a mutual translation between the Confucian idea of “tian xia” or Zhao Tingyang’s “the view from everywhere” on the one hand, and the idea of “ideal role-taking” in Mead and Habermas, on the other. Preserving the traditional Chinese idea of “tian xia” and interpreting the idea of “tian xia” with the help of the idea of “ideal role-taking”, we can, on the one hand, connect the traditional idea with the contemporary discussions on various relevant issues, including the issue of institutional framework for implementing the idea of “tian xia”, and, on the other hand, bring the achievements of these contemporary discussion, of which Habermas’s dialogical universalism is an very important one, into touch with the traditional Chinese culture, especially its idea of “tian xia” as a this-worldly transcendental Utopia.


One has to understand the Chinese mind to understand what is going on!

One wonders how many understand it to so loosely use it as the ''Indian'' scholar!
 
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Salim

Excellent piece - but what does it have to do with India's lack of vision of her role on the world stage.

See, I get your point about the Chinese, but what does it have to with India??

Are you following me? If you would rather discuss the duplicity of the chinese, such a thread may be illuminating but again we come to the same question, how is it relevent to the Indian??

If Chinese wish to proceed under the frame work Tian Xia, what is the frame work the Indian seek to proceed under?

I understand the rivalry, but I do not understand how the Indian hopes to overcome the rivalry or how they wish to frame the rivalry, how they wantot attenuate the rivalry while pursing their interests with vigour and this is really what the learned academic is pointing to.
 
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In so far as Indian is concerned, to believe that it is mindlessly meandering without any set aim, would be living in a Fool's Paradise.

I daresay any country, including Pakistan, having nuclear capability has just acquired it for ''the heck of it''

There is always a method in the madness and there is always a goal and it has two components - civil and military.

No country will exposes its aim, of this especially dangerous component to world peace, for public consumption and so frustration of those who think they belong to the intelligentia will be obvious.
 
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Salim

Excellent piece - but what does it have to do with India's lack of vision of her role on the world stage.

See, I get your point about the Chinese, but what does it have to with India??

Are you following me? If you would rather discuss the duplicity of the chinese, such a thread may be illuminating but again we come to the same question, how is it relevent to the Indian??

If Chinese wish to proceed under the frame work Tian Xia, what is the frame work the Indian seek to proceed under?

I understand the rivalry, but I do not understand how the Indian hopes to overcome the rivalry or how they wish to frame the rivalry, how they wantot attenuate the rivalry while pursing their interests with vigour and this is really what the learned academic is pointing to.

My post above will answer your query.

Chinese appear to be in a doublespeak mode to the outside world. However, as far as they are concerned, there is no ambi8guity. A study of their philosophy and it has too many aspects like Legalism, treating non Han as barbarians, and I can pull out much from my hard disk on this, will indicate the steadfast Chinese mindset of their being a superior culture and a superior race. And they are convinced about it.

The Chinese are clear about the goals in a cut and dried way than any other democratic country with nuclear power. Unlike democratic country with their free wheeling ways, China is blessed with this superiority complex that binds the nation as one (their culture tempered by Legalism and thoughts of their philosophers where the State or Emperor is supreme) as also by the iron hand of the Communist Party. It is only the Tibetans and Uighurs and some of Southern China who are not quite enveloped by this mindset. Hence, yes, they have a policy and a goal with their nuclear power and arsenal.

But to feel countries like India or Pakistan are merely poodlefaking is being too simplistic!

I wonder if their is any rivalry on the nuclear issue (civilian use) with China. China knows her place in the world and are quite sure of themselves, thanks to their mindset.

What would worry the Chinese is not the nuclear deal, but the drawing of India closer to the US and its strategic perspective. Even the BJP (the alternate) is pro US.

It has more to do with Paksitan, which has already campaigning against it and why not?
 
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Duh! -- but that does not solve the problem of a intellectual framework for a global role -- Indo-Pak nuclear is a regional thing - see, what the learned academic is pointing to in Tian Xia is furtherance of chinese objectives and interests while furthering those of others -- you will not have failed to note the most recent Sino-Russo border demarcation agreement.

It is increasingly clear to me that our indian interlocutors really do not have a clear cut idea as the learned academic has suggested -- now, why should this be for a country and civilization as anacient as the indian who are no new comers to the world stage??

Could it be as the learned academic has suggested that it is a lack of debate and discussion that is reason Indians do not have a clear idea of their role on the world stage?? Now, if it is, why should this be?? Could again be as the learned academic suggests that it may more to do with Nehruvian failure??

Further, as the learned academic points out, what will it take to get Indian out of the NAM mindset, to develop a new intellectual framework for international relations and india's role, especially now that 123 will be a reality whose full implication has not yet been internalized by much of the world?
 
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Duh! -- but that does not solve the problem of a intellectual framework for a global role -- Indo-Pak nuclear is a regional thing - see, what the learned academic is pointing to in Tian Xia is furtherance of chinese objectives and interests while furthering those of others -- you will not have failed to note the most recent Sino-Russo border demarcation agreement.

It is increasingly clear to me that our indian interlocutors really do not have a clear cut idea as the learned academic has suggested -- now, why should this be for a country and civilization as anacient as the indian who are no new comers to the world stage??

Could it be as the learned academic has suggested that it is a lack of debate and discussion that is reason Indians do not have a clear idea of their role on the world stage?? Now, if it is, why should this be?? Could again be as the learned academic suggests that it may more to do with Nehruvian failure??

Further, as the learned academic points out, what will it take to get Indian out of the NAM mindset, to develop a new intellectual framework for international relations and india's role, especially now that 123 will be a reality whose full implication has not yet been internalized by much of the world?

The Sino Russian border agreement is still under consideration. Or has it been concluded?

The learned woman can say what she wants, but Tien Xia is too complex to be used so glibly! It is very fashionable to quote concepts that are mysterious and that none can fathom. It makes one look very intellectual! The Miller woman is doing the same!

Since you feel that we Indians have no clue and you have, could you educate us?

Should the learned so called Indian intellectual not realise that the NAM mindset is out and India is slowly being weaned into the US' warm hug? Even Obama is upbeat!

It should ring alarm bells in Pakistan and even in China.

Our Communists think we have sold ourselves to the US!!

123 is OK, but the Hyde Act is what worries.

It is like the US taking over Pakistan's nuclear assets! Or so I am told!
 
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Salim


"Since you feel that we Indians have no clue and you have, could you educate us?

Should the learned so called Indian intellectual not realise that the NAM mindset is out and India is slowly being weaned into the US' warm hug? Even Obama is upbeat!

It should ring alarm bells in Pakistan and even in China.

Our Communists think we have sold ourselves to the US!!

123 is OK, but the Hyde Act is what worries.

It is like the US taking over Pakistan's nuclear assets! Or so I am told

That's a rather curious response - Are you guys getting enough fiber in your diet?

I take your point about "warm hug" and alarm bells but as the learned Indian academic points out china has developed a framework for her "independent" policy as a great power, will the "warm hug" allow India to do so as well?
 
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Salim




That's a rather curious response - Are you guys getting enough fiber in your diet?

No. I am with a 11.89 inflation and you or your folks are with 21%. You are only on fibres and you should know what fibres do every morning. I am glad it is clearing your system.

I take your point about "warm hug" and alarm bells but as the learned Indian academic points out china has developed a framework for her "independent" policy as a great power, will the "warm hug" allow India to do so as well?[

The day any one can take on the US, it will be the day. Ask your leaders, be they military or civilians!

See they are planning to attack you as p[er one of your threads and you can do damn all!! They bomb you at will.

India so far has edged towards the US and still maintained her independence. Do you feel we will succumb?
 
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Sorry to you guys are plugged up - but the warm hug may loosen you out some:azn:

So, if I understand you correctly, India do not seek to fashion a place of their own, but will accept the one the U.S fashions for them? as befitting a consort?:smitten:

Why are the indians on the forum in such a bad mood, it seems one cannot talk to an Indian without the Indian going ballistic - Aye bhai, Zara deek ke chalo:cheers:
 
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