What is 'Civilizational Continuity'?

[Joe Shearer]

Joe I must admit while I was trying to come up with the barebone basic acceptance criteria for what constitutes a civilization, the culture paradigm was thrashed internally back and forth.

But no matter how I looked at it, or where I looked, I was force to concede that culture is an amalgamation of exactly the same criteria - namely blood, faith, and soil.

And that culture itself is largely moulded by the existing dominant faith of the land and people.

Would love to hear more on this. And evolve the criteria further if need be. Should they prove to be robust enough to pass muster across historical shifts.

Unfortunately, due to my bereavement, and the consequent state of affairs in the family, I am unable to contribute usefully. Even an occasional look-in has become a difficult feat. I can only watch intermittently from the sidelines.

 

[Bang Galore]

The evolution in a philosophical, cultural or religious system that you described is not unique to South Asia and the Vedic Civilization - almost every school of thought, as it is created, refined, changed etc. develops and/or adapts on existing schools of thought and influences.

Take the 3 major Abrahamic religions for example - Islam developed on/from Christianity which itself developed on/from Judaism, and if one is to believe that the accounts of 'prophets/messengers' millennia before Moses, the roots for Judaism, Christianity and Islam were laid even earlier. The three major Abrahamic religions have further evolved within into various denominations/sects, in some cases (Sufi branch of Islam for example) because of absorbing influences from the other cultures they came in contact with.

Therefore, while I understand the argument you are trying to make, I don't agree that the process of change and evolution in the philosophical and/or religious belief systems in South Asia is necessarily unique to South Asia, and the final result we see, of 'Religion' (as in worship of deities) practiced by the majority of the residents of South Asia, is distinctly different from the Vedic 'Philosophy' that you argue was followed by the residents thousands of years ago.

I think my argument is being misconstrued. I'm in no way suggesting that evolution is unique to the philosophies of South Asia or indeed that those philosophical thoughts have any more significance than other non- South Asian philosophies. My point was simply in the context of the discussion as to whether continuity could be claimed/explained when there is so much churn within a particular "religion". My references in my previous posts were all towards that end suggesting that a continuity could be claimed no matter how tenuous it appears to outsiders.

"Distinctly different" is important only if other earlier philosophies have been completely discarded. What you are suggesting is that the majority within the "religion" now subscribe to a particular form. True but they do not disown other earlier philosophies; indeed they are celebrated. A good example would be the importance of the Shankaracharyas even if very few actually now subscribe to the teachings of Adi Shankara. An assimilated evolution of this kind, i believe, cannot be compared to other faiths where the faith ruptures a certain civilisation narrative and where sects like the Sufis are not pan Islamic but restricted to only a few areas & are not necessarily accepted by the main body as being an integral part of it. The same argument can also be made on the case of the Ahmadiyyas where a certain difference in the original narrative has created massive opposition to both the new narrative as well as those who seek to follow it. Before we digress into a needless controversy, let me hasten to add that I'm using these examples merely to illustrate that while a particular version of the narrative has wider acceptance in Hinduism, it in no way reduces the acknowledgement of other philosophies within the fold even if they be completely at odds with the present favourite. From that acceptance follows the claim of cultural continuity.

 

[KS]

It is the perfect antidote to the cruel reality of modern political geography.

Modern political geography is exactly what it is - modern political geography.

Panini was from Charsadda and probably sat on the banks of River Indus not too far from modern Islamabad writing his comprehensive rule on Sanskrit Grammar. Was he Indian? Yes. But he lived no where near India. Yes but he has direct link with India because there is 'civilizational continuity'.

Panini may have sat on the banks of the Kunar river - further North west while codifying the sanskrit grammer. But who uses Sanskrit today ? Indians or Pakistanis ? That is where the civilizational continuity comes in.

 

[Rafi]

Civilization, because it involves human society, is forever evolving - example in point - just a couple of hundred years previous, (barely a brief moment in human history) the lingua franca of much of South Asia was Persian, today English has replaced it completely.

Civilizations are constantly borrowing practices and information from one another, therefore the proposition that civilizational continuity is a valid term is a false one.

The true inheritors of any civilization are the direct descendants of the original people, case in point - modern Egyptians are very different compared to their ancient forefathers, but being the direct blood descendants have the best claim. Similarly modern Pakistanis are in the best place to claim the cultural and physical heritage of their forefathers, and the land they have lived on since time immemorial.

 

[vsdoc]

Unfortunately, due to my bereavement, and the consequent state of affairs in the family, I am unable to contribute usefully. Even an occasional look-in has become a difficult feat. I can only watch intermittently from the sidelines.

I am really sory for your loss and pray for the restful peace of the departed soul. Please accept and convey my condolences to your family.

 

[vsdoc]

Take the 3 major Abrahamic religions for example - Islam developed on/from Christianity which itself developed on/from Judaism, and if one is to believe that the accounts of 'prophets/messengers' millennia before Moses, the roots for Judaism, Christianity and Islam were laid even earlier.

That common thread was Zoroastrianism.

Yet different prophets. Different faiths. Different people. Different lands.

Different civilizations.

The Christian Pogroms sounded the death knell of Judaism.

The Mohameddan Jihad that of Zoroastrianism.

 

[roach]

Unfortunately, due to my bereavement, and the consequent state of affairs in the family, I am unable to contribute usefully. Even an occasional look-in has become a difficult feat. I can only watch intermittently from the sidelines.

Very sorry to hear that Joe. My condolences, for what it's worth.

 

[Rig Vedic]

Unfortunately, due to my bereavement, and the consequent state of affairs in the family, I am unable to contribute usefully. Even an occasional look-in has become a difficult feat. I can only watch intermittently from the sidelines.

Sorry to hear that. Hang on in there, take care of yourself & the family.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Modern political geography is exactly what it is - modern political geography.


And?[

Panini may have sat on the banks of the Kunar river - further North west while codifying the sanskrit grammer. But who uses Sanskrit today ? Indians or Pakistanis ? That is where the civilizational continuity comes in.

And I take it all of India speaks Sanskrit, all those Bollywood movies are in Sanskrit. Crikey! I can understand Bollywood movies does that mean I can speak Sanskrit?

Look my friend Sanskrit is to South Asia what Latin is to Europe. A tiny minority of people speak latin in Europe but it's influence on all European languages is profound.

Ditto Sanskrit. Punjabi, Sindhi and Urdu have plenty of Sanskrit influence. So don't make a attempt at copyright claim on Sanskrit. It is a language that has had profound effect on all of South Asia.

Of course we are proud that it was on of our ancestors that influenced all of South Asia.

You can use that vague term 'civilization continuity' and hey presto Panini becomes fully paid up Indian. Or maybe you beef up your claim by making a new discovery that Panini's dad was from Visakhapatnam, his mum was from Thiruvanathapuram and he was born in Vijahwada.

And while he was doing his higher education in Chennai he took a gap year and travelled to what is now North West Pakistan which is where he did his work. In which case he was a Non Resident Indian !!!

Joe Shearer

Please accept my condolances for your sad loss. Hope to see you around soon.

 

[NALANDA]

Sanskrit is part of our culture and forever will be as it is the language used for worship when we are born. Our prayers are in Sankrit , our Mantras are in Sanskrit. All our important ocassions and moments ( marriage, house purchase, death) are belssed in Sanskrit. It is one of the languange we learn in our school. I can read sanskrit and also understand though I do not speak in daily life but I pray daily in Sanskrit.

This is the continuity ..which will forever be....be we are in India, Middle East or USA.

 

[Rafi]

Unfortunately, due to my bereavement, and the consequent state of affairs in the family, I am unable to contribute usefully. Even an occasional look-in has become a difficult feat. I can only watch intermittently from the sidelines.

My sincere condolences on your sad loss.

And I take it all of India speaks Sanskrit, all those Bollywood movies are in Sanskrit. Crikey! I can understand Bollywood movies does that mean I can speak Sanskrit?

Look my friend Sanskrit is to South Asia what Latin is to Europe. A tiny minority of people speak latin in Europe but it's influence on all European languages is profound.

Ditto Sanskrit. Punjabi, Sindhi and Urdu have plenty of Sanskrit influence. So don't make a attempt at copyright claim on Sanskrit. It is a language that has had profound effect on all of South Asia.

Of course we are proud that it was on of our ancestors that influenced all of South Asia.

You can use that vague term 'civilization continuity' and hey presto Panini becomes fully paid up Indian. Or maybe you beef up your claim by making a new discovery that Panini's dad was from Visakhapatnam, his mum was from Thiruvanathapuram and he was born in Vijahwada.

And while he was doing his higher education in Chennai he took a gap year and travelled to what is now North West Pakistan which is where he did his work. In which case he was a Non Resident Indian !!!

Joe Shearer

Please accept my condolances for your sad loss. Hope to see you around soon.

A brilliant and devastating rebutal.

Our glorious heritage - Pakistan Zindabad.

 

[Developereo]

Unfortunately, due to my bereavement, and the consequent state of affairs in the family, I am unable to contribute usefully. Even an occasional look-in has become a difficult feat. I can only watch intermittently from the sidelines.

Sorry to hear. Condolences and hope that you and the family recover soon.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Civilization, because it involves human society, is forever evolving - example in point - just a couple of hundred years previous, (barely a brief moment in human history) the lingua franca of much of South Asia was Persian, today English has replaced it completely.

Civilizations are constantly borrowing practices and information from one another, therefore the proposition that civilizational continuity is a valid term is a false one.

Precisely. Modern Eygptian's are ARabic speaking, Muslims with significant genetic infusion from the Arabian peninsula and identify themselves with the wider Arab world. Therefore there is little to connect modern Egypt with the builders of the Pyramids.

But let's face it modern Egyptian's are the true evolved decendants of the Ancient Egyptians. Nobody says to them Egytian's your Muslim, your Arabic speaking Arabs therefore you have nothing to do with Tutankhamun.

Nalanda

I can speak Arabic of sorts, almost every Muslim prays in Arabic but that does not make me Arab. Latin is used by the Catholic Church but that does not make a Irish Catholic a Italian or give him some right's on the Roman poet Virgil because he wrote in Latin.

 

[Developereo]

It depends on how you define a civilization,

IMO, a civilisation is defined by a lot of things such as:

eating habits

clothing

ancestry

languages/dialects

written script

mythology

legend

anecdotes

location

Applying that yardstick to compare Republic of India with IVC, what links do we find?
eating habits - NO
clothing - NO
ancestry - unknown; likely in NW India (some unproven claims of Tamil links???)
languages/dialects - NO
written script - NO
mythology/legend/anecdotes - a stretch (SOME deities may have vague resemblance)
location - again, NW India only

By that yardstick, India's links with IVC are no more solid (and possibly weaker) than Pakistan's.

 

[NALANDA]

Nalanda

I can speak Arabic of sorts, almost every Muslim prays in Arabic but that does not make me Arab. Latin is used by the Catholic Church but that does not make a Irish Catholic a Italian or give him some right's on the Roman poet Virgil because he wrote in Latin.

Sir
There is a difference when an Arab speaks in Arabic when compared to a non-arab individual.

Let me tell you why I think Harappa is my culture.

I was born in Bihar bordering Nepal but my ancestors came to Bihar from Rajasthan part a couple of hundreds back ( this is a recorded fact in my family). It is possible that their ancestors came from the area which is further west to Paksitan. People have been moving to safer areas in east to escape from frequent assaults of arab and other invaders.

While my ancestors left their land, they did not leave their culture and rituals, inclding worship of Sun God and Pshupati etc and many more subtal rituals.

People who are currently staying in the land where originally my ancestors lived are mainly the invaders with their alien cluture and rituals. Today some of these people realize the superiority of my ancestors culture and are claiming to inherit them. These people looted our land and now are claiming ( without practicing) to represent our culture...