what does the Pak armed forces realiticially need to counter india conventially

[illusion8]

This is a hate mongering post

How many times has one read posts like pakistani nukes are meant to wipe out the whole Hindus of India and if Pakistan gets destroyed then there are still 57 other muslim countries?.

A credible deterrence would be if threatened to threaten to wipe out more than Pakistan bargained for..

 

[deckingraj]

You're essentially making the same point I did, that power is not going to be willingly given up. I argued in my previous post that in order for the civilian government to take back power and control it needs public support and public support for the civilian government will not occur until the government starts delivering on governance.

Look you are making it as catch 22...My points were how do they deliver when they have no power....how to get power when they have no public support...and your point how public will give support when they don't deliver....

Now if public has given them entire support for running the whole country then i fail to understand why they are not backing them up against there military....The reason i believe(i hope i am wrong) is that a common Pakistani perhaps like this way of power equation...your comments please....

International pressure behind the scenes on the Indian government to put a lid on its inflammatory rhetoric.

Now this is silly....You are trying to justify an act of bulding international pressure to put a lid on inflammatory rhetoric by making inflammtory rhetoric of magnitude many times more.....IMHO this policy has failed and will continue to fail....Historically New Delhi didn't escalate when you did Kargil on us...same is true during Parliament attack....and finally mumbai attack....There is no reason to keep harping from roof top that how you will nuke us...

Pakistan's threats to use nuclear weapons as a defensive response to Indian military aggression threatening her survival have almost always been in the context of a response to inflammatory rhetoric from India.

This is a mere cover up...First of all i am not even aware of recent "inflammatory rhetoric" that threatened your survival...so please share otherwise your point of repeating them is nothing short of intellectual dishonesty...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I see you have used the word almost. Just wanted to clarify if the intent was to cover all bases or there is indeed some credible evidence implicating Saeed.

HS's past connections with LeT, his continued role with JuD and his continued stature within the organization/s allow for a circumstantial case to be made that he would/should/could have known about the Mumbai attack plan - that is what I was alluding to when I used the word 'almost'

Of course knowledge of the attacks doesn't necessarily equate to approval and/or active support for the attacks, and even the case that HS knew about the attacks can't be made currently. The fact that the US government is offering a reward for information that could result in a conviction for HS suggests that, even with the information provided by David Headly, India etc, they don't have anything credible to go on.

 

[Spectre]

HS's past connections with LeT, his continued role with JuD and his continued stature within the organization/s allow for a circumstantial case to be made that he would/should/could have known about the Mumbai attack plan - that is what I was alluding to when I used the word 'almost'


Of course knowledge of the attacks doesn't necessarily equate to approval and/or active support for the attacks, and even the case that HS knew about the attacks can't be made currently. The fact that the US government is offering a reward for information that could result in a conviction for HS suggests that, even with the information provided by David Headly, India etc, they don't have anything credible to go on.

Not really.

1. Having knowledge about a crime and failure to report it to the concerned authorities can make you accessory to the crime.

2. Bounty posted on Saeed says nothing of that sort. Here is the piece from the posted bounty on Saeed.


Rewards for Justice - Wanted

Additionally, the United States Department of the Treasury has designated Saeed as a Specially Designated National under Executive Order 13224. Saeed was also individually designated by the United Nations under UNSCR 1267 in December 2008.

Lashkar-e-Tayyiba was designated as a Foreign Terrorist Organization in December 2001. In April 2008, the United States designated Jamaat-ud-Dawa as a Foreign Terrorist Organization; similarly, the United Nations declared Jamaat-ud-Dawa a terrorist organization in December 2008.

Information about the source

Rewards for Justice - Program Overview

The Rewards for Justice program continues to be one of the most valuable U.S. Government assets in the fight against international terrorism. Established by the 1984 Act to Combat International Terrorism, Public Law 98-533, the Program is administered by the U.S. Department of State’s Bureau of Diplomatic Security.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir,

I have no comment, none fit for this forum, which I have come to admire and respect.

Hi,

You think that you are the only one protecting your sacred idols----. It happens with every one---.

I have had my moments of enlightenment and I can tell you from personal experience that it is difficult to let go and believe in what really happened.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Look you are making it as catch 22...My points were how do they deliver when they have no power....how to get power when they have no public support...and your point how public will give support when they don't deliver....

The civilian government doesn't have complete power over certain specific issues (foreign policy for example), but they absolutely have power over most domestic issues, which is what the common Pakistani will be impacted by most. The Army isn't stopping the civilian government from enacting reforms in education, health, infrastructure and law enforcement. It isn't stopping the civilian government from expanding and improving the delivery of services to the people, or refining and expanding the tax net, ending VIP culture, working with the judiciary to expand and improve the delivery of justice or reforming and expanding law enforcement agencies. These are the things that the public can see and experience in their daily lives, not some intangible policy positions on engagement with the US, Afghanistan and India. These are the issues that civilian government needs to address in order to gain public support.

To some degree the PMLN actually gets this, that public support can be won by development that people can experience, which is why they are so focused on building 'Motorway's and Rapid Transit Systems'. But the problem is that their approach is extremely narrow and their policies rather shallow (once you get beyond the glitzy mega-projects). Once the public gets over the initial novelty of air conditioned buses, they won't be so forgiving about the lack of basic services.

Now if public has given them entire support for running the whole country then i fail to understand why they are not backing them up against there military....The reason i believe(i hope i am wrong) is that a common Pakistani perhaps like this way of power equation...your comments please....

Pakistan is still evolving as a democracy, and the 55% turnout includes a significant amount of people (especially in rural/feudal areas) who vote en masse based on particular demographic indicators. Excluding the hard core party supporters, many who vote do so because they realize that a democratic system is the only option in the long term and that in order for said democratic system to be successful, it needs continuity. That doesn't mean they completely trust the political choices they have (over the Army), but they recognize the need for democratic continuity. These 2 (contradictory in some ways) views are what results in the current public mood of supporting an Army role in domestic security issues and foreign policy, and at the same time wanting continuity in the elected government.

Now this is silly....You are trying to justify an act of bulding international pressure to put a lid on inflammatory rhetoric by making inflammtory rhetoric of magnitude many times more.....IMHO this policy has failed and will continue to fail....Historically New Delhi didn't escalate when you did Kargil on us...same is true during Parliament attack....and finally mumbai attack....There is no reason to keep harping from roof top that how you will nuke us...

If the Modi and his minions keep the anti-Pakistan hysteria going with their hostile statements, getting global attention (and pressure on India) by raising the nuclear card is a valid policy in my view.

This is a mere cover up...First of all i am not even aware of recent "inflammatory rhetoric" that threatened your survival...so please share otherwise your point of repeating them is nothing short of intellectual dishonesty...

Take the rhetoric after the Myanmar raid for example - any threat of military aggression against Pakistan, even if limited, has to be addressed from the perspective that such aggression will escalate into a full fledged war, which in turn brings about the nuclear scenario. India has conventional military advantages in many areas that might in fact allow for a successful 'limited conflict' on her part - you can't expect Pakistan to play by India's rules and to India's strengths in such a case, which is why Pakistan will escalate to increase the cost for India (and of course for herself as well) and therefore attempt to deter India from actually carrying out any such 'limited military operations'.

 

[MastanKhan]

Not really.

1. Having knowledge about a crime and failure to report it to the concerned authorities can make you accessory to the crime.

.

Sir,

That is very true----that is why Hindustan needs to confront RAW and find out why is it that when the U S intel agencies were giving them information as long as four years prior to the incidence and upto the time of attack---why were they not in a better position to intercept.

I understand that you guys want to dump everything on Pakistan---and it is out of habit---but is it intentional that you have not formed a commission to dig into why there was no action taken on the intel provided by the U S---or is it out of failure to understand the issue.

Or are you guys afraid that the dirt that would be dug up---would harm your state?

Bottomline is---the boats did not get into indian waters without the indian navy knowing about it and who was on the boats doing what---regardless of what you guys claim---.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Not really.

1. Having knowledge about a crime and failure to report it to the concerned authorities can make you accessory to the crime.

Depends upon the applicable laws and the extent to which one can prove 'knowledge of a crime' (knew about it, but dismissed it as something that wouldn't actually be carried out etc). So far no one can even prove that 'HS had active knowledge about the attacks'.

2. Bounty posted on Saeed says nothing of that sort. Here is the piece from the posted bounty on Saeed.
Rewards for Justice - Wanted

Additionally, the United States Department of the Treasury has designated Saeed as a Specially Designated National under Executive Order 13224. Saeed was also individually designated by the United Nations under UNSCR 1267 in December 2008.

Lashkar-e-Tayyiba was designated as a Foreign Terrorist Organization in December 2001. In April 2008, the United States designated Jamaat-ud-Dawa as a Foreign Terrorist Organization; similarly, the United Nations declared Jamaat-ud-Dawa a terrorist organization in December 2008.

Information about the source

Rewards for Justice - Program Overview

The Rewards for Justice program continues to be one of the most valuable U.S. Government assets in the fight against international terrorism. Established by the 1984 Act to Combat International Terrorism, Public Law 98-533, the Program is administered by the U.S. Department of State’s Bureau of Diplomatic Security.

That particular page on the Rewards for Justice Site is pretty limited - you have to go to the site section that explains what the Rewards For Justice program is about to get specifics on the 'bounty', and of course read the statements by US government officials regarding the bounty:

Under this program, the Secretary of State may authorize rewards for information that leads to the arrest or conviction of anyone who plans, commits, or attempts international terrorist acts against U.S. persons or property, that prevents such acts from occurring in the first place, that leads to the location of a key terrorist leader, or that disrupts terrorism financing.
Rewards for Justice - Program Overview​

 

[deckingraj]

The civilian government doesn't have complete power over certain specific issues (foreign policy for example), but they absolutely have power over most domestic issues, which is what the common Pakistani will be impacted by most.

You are right in one way however why you forget that foreign policy has a direct impact in today's global world on your internal health as well...Anyways as said a common Pakistani is convinced that this is a workable solution and your post also clarifies that...So let's leave it at that...

If the Modi and his minions keep the anti-Pakistan hysteria going with their hostile statements, getting global attention (and pressure on India) by raising the nuclear card is a valid policy in my view.

I have corrected you so many times on this...Nuclear card is being played at even a drop of hat in Pakistan....Modi has come to power only in 2014 whereas we have been hearing this nuclear sabre rattling since ages now, no?? Also your logic of gaining global attention is flawed...it only highlights and that too in Bold, that Pakistan is an immature nuclear power...Apart from raising eyebrows negagtively what else it has achieved?? Modi's policy has still not changed...so what have you guys gained??

Take the rhetoric after the Myanmar raid for example - any threat of military aggression against Pakistan, even if limited, has to be addressed from the perspective that such aggression will escalate into a full fledged war, which in turn brings about the nuclear scenario. India has conventional military advantages in many areas that might in fact allow for a successful 'limited conflict' on her part - you can't expect Pakistan to play by India's rules and to India's strengths in such a case, which is why Pakistan will escalate to increase the cost for India (and of course for herself as well) and therefore attempt to deter India from actually carrying out any such 'limited military operations'.

AM, i have discussed with you on so many occassions...Why are you being so difficult this time...NASR was specifically brought in for this so called cold doctrine of India...no?? Same saga was repeated during Mumbai Attacks... I am not challenging why you have Tactical Nukes(in my mind they are useless but that is my view) but why you need to keep threatning all the time...Let me quote an example - India's nuclear doctrine clearly says any nukes on Mainland or our interests will draw unmanagable nuclear retaliation...That's it...

You guys on other hand have no declared "No First Use" policy and on top of that always bring attention by nuclear sabre rattling...On groung nothing has changed...so don't you think it is time to put thinking cap on??

 

[Spectre]

Depends upon the applicable laws and the extent to which one can prove 'knowledge of a crime' (knew about it, but dismissed it as something that wouldn't actually be carried out etc). So far no one can even prove that 'HS had active knowledge about the attacks'.

That particular page on the Rewards for Justice Site is pretty limited - you have to go to the site section that explains what the Rewards For Justice program is about to get specifics on the 'bounty', and of course read the statements by US government officials regarding the bounty:

Under this program, the Secretary of State may authorize rewards for information that leads to the arrest or conviction of anyone who plans, commits, or attempts international terrorist acts against U.S. persons or property, that prevents such acts from occurring in the first place, that leads to the location of a key terrorist leader, or that disrupts terrorism financing.
Rewards for Justice - Program Overview​

That is standard boiler plate legal clause inserted to ensure that information is not frivolous in nature. This is also not exclusive to Hafiz Saeed as have been portrayed.

Why would US declare HS as a terrorist on behalf of a third country in absence of some prima-facie evidence?

Plus the detail suggests arrests or conviction. US cannot normally violate Pakistan sovereignty without exceptional due cause such as in case of Osama hence arrest would have to made over-seas as Pakistan is not co-operating in this matter with US and for that to happen Hafiz saeed has to travel overseas and the information about his co-ordinates have to be provided to US to effect that arrest.

Sir,

That is very true----that is why Hindustan needs to confront RAW and find out why is it that when the U S intel agencies were giving them information as long as four years prior to the incidence and upto the time of attack---why were they not in a better position to intercept.

I understand that you guys want to dump everything on Pakistan---and it is out of habit---but is it intentional that you have not formed a commission to dig into why there was no action taken on the intel provided by the U S---or is it out of failure to understand the issue.

Or are you guys afraid that the dirt that would be dug up---would harm your state?

Bottomline is---the boats did not get into indian waters without the indian navy knowing about it and who was on the boats doing what---regardless of what you guys claim---.

There are lot of assumptions inherent in the argument presented. To comment would be to add fuel to this conspiracy theory, hence I would excuse myself.

Regards

 

[Alphacharlie]

Hi,

what you Indians don't realize that we are not concerned with your 7 or 10 times----what our concern is to hold you for 72 hours---if we can---then we will smash thru----.

Your navy does not bother us a tad bit-----it is actually the least of our worries----.

See---we also have our version of cold star doctrine----. And our assessment is that we can strike hard and cut off major land area-----but our concern is that is india going to go nuclear----?

In our geographical situation---the cold start doctrine suits our purpose and vision and operation better than yours---.

The thing is that our sole purpose in life is to fight you and conquer you----your sole purpose in life is tomake money----so you cannot keep on with us----.

And again---you money expenditure does not bother us a tad bit----because most of it is wasted----and then there are other issues as well.

Truth be told---how many Indians get up everyday and say we want to destroy and conquer Pakistan---not many---but how about Pakistan----!!!! Think about it---. That is all we think---from dawn till dusk----.

You guys ought to be grateful to your leaders that you got the nucs----otherwise---you would have seen our cold start doctrine as well by now---.

Janab --

eak aur Scotch, bheju kya ? aap ke response main dum nahi hai aaj !!

 

[Ray_of_Hope]

Thanks. Hope to be a regular contributor to discussions. Although I do suffer from attention deficit at times.



You may be right. I have been hearing voices in my head for some time now.



Look, it's not that I am a crowd of one on most issues. Many people on this forum, just like my fellow Pakistanis I know in real life, will agree with me on quite a few things. Most of the Pakistanis in my friend circle are secular liberals/progressives who want to take Pakistan forward as a society and have nothing in common with the rabid image portrayed in India/elsewhere. Even in PDF you must have noticed that except on the India question, most of them are easy to deal with. It is a strange thing, nationalist chauvinism. It makes you hate those who would have been your natural allies and run into the arms of your mortal enemy. Pakistanis have everything in common with Indians and nothing in common with the "all weather friends" they have enlisted in their cause. But who will tell that to those blinded by hate.

But isn't it the same in India? Are there not plenty of Indian secular liberals who are just irrationally unaccommodating on just that one issue - Pakistan?

@WebMaster @Horus @waz Please check his IP.He has indian flags while he pretends to be a Pakistani.

 

[Ifteqar Aisan]

@WebMaster @Horus @waz Please check his IP.He has indian flags while he pretends to be a Pakistani.

Some shady admin over here has already changed my flag to Indian, and I am repeatedly making requests to have it changed back. You must be proud of the lack of ethics displayed by those who run PDF, and I am sure such unscrupulous behaviour does not bother you in the least.

 

[Ray_of_Hope]

Some shady admin over here has already changed my flag to Indian, and I am repeatedly making requests to have it changed back. You must be proud of the lack of ethics displayed by those who run PDF, and I am sure such unscrupulous behaviour does not bother you in the least.

I did notice that you had Pakistani flags a few days ago.But I am positively surprised at the efficiency of the site admins that they nipped the evil in the bud by changing your flags to your original country.And by seeing that you are trying really hard to pretend as a Pakistani,I am sure that you wont be posting here for long.

 

[MastanKhan]

Janab --

eak aur Scotch, bheju kya ? aap ke response main dum nahi hai aaj !!

Hi,

I don't drink hard liquor---thank you----. You people are scared to look deeper for obvious reasons----you people are scared to find out what if it was true----.

There are lot of assumptions inherent in the argument presented. To comment would be to add fuel to this conspiracy theory, hence I would excuse myself.

Regards

Hi,

Yeah---right----it won't add fuel---but it will shatter many an idol that people hold in their hearts for their intelligence agencies and administration.

Needs a lots of courage to look deeper into the soul---.