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West ignores lessons of Soviet humiliation in Afghanistan

ironman

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Its Afghan war spelt disaster for the USSR and now Nato is making the same mistakes

July 19, 2009

Victor Sebestyen

"THERE is barely an important piece of land in Afghanistan that has not been occupied by one of our soldiers at some time or another,” the commander said. “Nevertheless, much of the territory stays in the hands of the terrorists. We control the provincial centres, but we cannot maintain political control over the territory that we seize.”

He added: “Our soldiers are not to blame. They’ve fought incredibly bravely in adverse conditions. But to occupy towns and villages temporarily has little value in such a vast land, where the insurgents can just disappear into the hills.”

They could have been the words of a Nato general in the past few days. In fact they were spoken by Marshal Sergei Akhromeyev, commander of Soviet armed forces, to the USSR’s politburo in the Kremlin on November 13, 1986.

The Soviet forces were in the seventh year of their nine-year war in Afghanistan and had lost about 12,000 men. Akhromeyev, a hero of the siege of Leningrad in the second world war, had been summoned to explain why a force of 109,000 troops from the world’s second superpower appeared to be humiliated, year after year, by a band of terrorists.

Akhromeyev explained about the rough terrain, insisted the army needed more resources – including additional helicopters – and warned that without more men and equipment “this war will continue for a very long time”.

He concluded with words that sound uncannily resonant today, in the eighth year of Nato’s war: “About 99% of the battles and skirmishes that we fought in Afghanistan were won by our side. The problem is that the next morning there is the same situation as if there had been no battle. The terrorists are again in the village where they were – or we thought they were – destroyed a day or so before.”

The Soviet campaign in Afghanistan is a largely forgotten war. Few strategists from Russia or the West seem to think anything can be learnt from it. But study Soviet archives and many lessons become clear.

As the world was not watching, the Soviet troops could be brutal, yet massive air raids and the destruction of villages, which killed 800,000 Afghans, did not work. Tactics changed over the years, each time accompanied by a “surge” of new troops that temporarily improved security for the Russian-backed communist government in Kabul.

Much of the fighting was in places that have become familiar to us. Soviet troops were sent on sweeps in the most troublesome areas on the border with Pakistan, through which most of the guerrillas’ weapons flowed, and the southern provinces of the country, such as Helmand. As soon as they left their fortified bases, the troops were in danger of ambush from bands of mujaheddin – the army of God.

That war, like today’s, was characterised by disputes between soldiers and politicians. As newly revealed Russian documents show, the Communist party bosses ordered the invasion against the advice of senior commanders. This caused continual friction in Moscow for many years.

Marshal Nikolai Ogarkov, the chief of the Soviet defence staff, and Akhromeyev, his number two, raised doubts shortly before Soviet forces were dispatched on Christmas Day 1979. They suggested to Dmitri Ustinov, the defence minister, that the experiences of the British and tsarist armies in the 19th century should encourage caution.

Ustinov told them to “shut up and obey orders”, according to politburo minutes.

Ogarkov went further up the chain of command to Leonid Brezhnev, the party boss. He warned that an invasion “could mire us in unfamiliar, difficult conditions and would align the entire Islamic East against us”. He was cut off in mid-sentence.

“Focus on military matters,” he was told. “Leave the policy making to us and to the party.” Not long afterwards the marshal was fired.

The Soviet troops realised soon after they entered Afghanistan that they had blundered, but Kremlin officials felt trapped. When Mikhail Gorbachev became leader in March 1985 he declared privately that ending the war – “our bleeding wound” – was his priority. But he could not do so for fear of losing too much face. Withdrawing the troops took a further four years as they searched for that difficult prize for armies on the run: peace with honour.

It was an agonising process that marked the beginning of the end of the Soviet empire and eventually the USSR itself. “How to get out of this racks one’s brains,” Gorbachev despaired to his fellow Soviet magnates in the spring of 1986. He told his generals later that year: “After all this time we have not learnt how to wage war there.”

When the last troops left on February 15, 1989, about 15,000 of their comrades had been killed. It was the only war the USSR lost. To Gorbachev, one vital issue was how to “spin” it correctly. As he wrote to his key aides during the last phase of the retreat, presentation was key: “We must say that our people have not given their lives in vain,” he said.

- Victor Sebestyen is the author of Revolution 1989: The Fall of the Soviet Empire, to be published on July 30 by Weidenfeld and Nicolson
 
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From stat Afghanistan was the weakest country both Russia and US took this opponent to have military presence in south Asia.

Only problem is American failed Russian by creating Taliban and American are trap in their own creation.
 
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Only problem is American failed Russian by creating Taliban and American are trap in their own creation.

The US did not create the Afghani Taliban movement. The Saudi and UAE-funded madrassas in Pakistan started it. Later, Benazir Bhutto overruled the ISI's opinion and threw Pakistan's support to the Omar Taliban, to the detriment of G. Hekmatyar's group, ISI's favorite. B. Bhutto wanted an oil or gas pipeline to go through Kandahar to a Pakistani port to create jobs and revenue for Pakistan. This Unocal pipeline was Pakistan's baby, not the US governments! So, the Afghani Taliban belong to Pakistan, hook, line and sinker. The US had nothing to do with the formation or rise of Mullah Omar's Taliban.
 
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The US did not create the Afghani Taliban movement. The Saudi and UAE-funded madrassas in Pakistan started it. Later, Benazir Bhutto overruled the ISI's opinion and threw Pakistan's support to the Omar Taliban, to the detriment of G. Hekmatyar's group, ISI's favorite. B. Bhutto wanted an oil or gas pipeline to go through Kandahar to a Pakistani port to create jobs and revenue for Pakistan. This Unocal pipeline was Pakistan's baby, not the US governments! So, the Afghani Taliban belong to Pakistan, hook, line and sinker. The US had nothing to do with the formation or rise of Mullah Omar's Taliban.

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I agree thats the truth CIA only funded them ISI did the work well we all know CIA could'nt put thier shoes in Afganistan wont do the job we know how much organizations like CIA are heavily funded with poor intelligence.:usflag:

The US NEVER funded Mullah Omar's Taliban movement. The US funded mujaheddin fighters, primarily those chosen by the ISI prior to 1990, but had left Afghanistan before the rise of the Afghani Taliban movement. The US has had no part at all in the rise, funding or support of the Afghan Taliban. The Afghan Taliban is entirely the creation of the Afghans themselves with funding and support from the Government of Pakistan, the Saudis and the UAE sheiks.

AND, the US has had no part in the rise, funding and support of the Pakistani Taliban, either.
 
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The US NEVER funded Mullah Omar's Taliban movement. The US funded mujaheddin fighters, primarily those chosen by the ISI prior to 1990, but had left Afghanistan before the rise of the Afghani Taliban movement. The US has had no part at all in the rise, funding or support of the Afghan Taliban. The Afghan Taliban is entirely the creation of the Afghans themselves with funding and support from the Government of Pakistan, the Saudis and the UAE sheiks.

AND, the US has had no part in the rise, funding and support of the Pakistani Taliban, either.

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but its falsy that US didnt fund TTP since you assist the people fighting under the name of TTP are from Afganistan's army which are very addicted to Hasish we've caught them and came up they are trained and paid by US.

This is a complete lie. You have no proof of this. It is all irhabi propaganda meant to defame the US and inflame anti-American feelings among Pakistanis. You are helping the irhabis by repeating it and believing their lies.
 
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This is a complete lie. You have no proof of this. It is all ****** propaganda meant to defame the US and inflame anti-American feelings among Pakistanis. You are helping the irhabis by repeating it and believing their lies.

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this was told to me by a Pakistan army Brigadier who pray 5 times a day who is a very strick Muslims and have fought against Soviets during Afgan war you have no credible proof kid and i dont think so hes lying and he will accomplish anything from it keep you CNN to yourself unless you have proof ohh i forgot your too busy with opium fields.

Your Pakistani army Brigadier has no proof either. Muslims can lie no matter how many times a day they pray. YOU made the charge. YOU should prove it. Don't ask me to give you proof that all of your irhabi conspiracy theories are UNTRUE. It is obvious, you believe so many lies your head is about to explode.
 
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Your Pakistani army Brigadier has no proof either. Muslims can lie no matter how many times a day they pray. YOU made the charge. YOU should prove it. Don't ask me to give you proof that all of your irhabi conspiracy theories are UNTRUE. It is obvious, you believe so many lies your head is about to explode.

accusing a Pakistan army Brigadier of having no proof off look into yourself who you are let me start you'r another one of those American that are couch potatoes and e-warriors his rank is higher than you and hes more intelligent than you he does have proof we've seen it no need to release on the internet might be risking our future stragedy now go watch CSI is ON !!!
 
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You are making very little sense.. Getting emotional is not gonna make you correct. This is a forum to discuss issues.. I do not agree with Truthseeker when he says US has or had nothing to do with the Taliban, but since I do not have proof I will wait for others to discredit him by providing proof. By the way I am yet to see your proof as to why the US was not involved in the rise of Mullah Omar. As Clinton has already stated that the rise of the Taliban began with the rise of the Mujahadeen. If you can see how 3 generations of these fighters have learned nothing else except fight amongst themselves and others, I will continue to point the finger at the firestarter.
 
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As Clinton has already stated that the rise of the Taliban began with the rise of the Mujahadeen. If you can see how 3 generations of these fighters have learned nothing else except fight amongst themselves and others, I will continue to point the finger at the firestarter.

Perhaps. But the rise of the mujaheddin began in opposition to the Communist Party of Afghanistan and the subsequent intervention of the Soviet Union. The USA did not become involved until a few years after the Pakistani ISI, and their financial backers in the Gulf, were recruiting, funding and controlling mujaheddin groups in Afghanistan. So, by YOUR logic, the "firestarters" were (1) the Soviet Union, AKA, the Russians, and (2) Pakistan. For a detailed history of the US involvement in Afghanistan prior to 9/11/2001, see Steve Coll's book "The Ghost Wars":

http://books.google.com/books?id=To...PTra1n&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4
 
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Perhaps. But the rise of the mujaheddin began in opposition to the Communist Party of Afghanistan and the subsequent intervention of the Soviet Union. The USA did not become involved until a few years after the Pakistani ISI, and their financial backers in the Gulf, were recruiting, funding and controlling mujaheddin groups in Afghanistan. So, by YOUR logic, the "firestarters" were (1) the Soviet Union, AKA, the Russians, and (2) Pakistan. For a detailed history of the US involvement in Afghanistan prior to 9/11/2001, see Steve Coll's book "The Ghost Wars":

Ghost wars: the secret history of ... - Google Books
Tsk...Tsk...You are that naive? You should know by now that ANY source that can lessen the impact of US involvement anywhere in the world is certainly believed by these people as part of a CIA plot. CIA this...CIA that...CIA everywhere...
 
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Tsk...Tsk...You are that naive? You should know by now that ANY source that can lessen the impact of US involvement anywhere in the world is certainly believed by these people as part of a CIA plot. CIA this...CIA that...CIA everywhere...

Kinda like ISI this.. ISI that...ISI everywhere.

I will continue to point the finger at the firestarter

Then, to be fair, you must point to Daoud khan - It was Daoud who shattered the bonds that held the Afghan State together. Communists did not suddenly appear in Afghanistan, they arose not just because of active Soviet recruitment but because as is pointed in "Ghost Wars", they bought into the ideal their university instructors preached, that "one can change the world" - and in the melieu of inequity and the realization of their backwardness as compared to others, led them to act.

Had Daoud not done what he did, a parliamentary democracy of sorts would still be possible and the afghan state held together by the moral appeal and the perceived legitimacy of the monarchy.

What Daoud did had little to do with Pakistan directly, he wanted in on CENTO and Pakistan did not want them there and had absolutely nothing to do with CIA.
 
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What many people still don't understand is that Afghanistan is not a difficult country to colonise; It's an impossible country to colonise. The Persians tried and failed, Britain tried and failed, Russia tried and failed very hard, some others have tried and failed, and now whoever is trying or wants to try will fail the hardest. Not only their economy will collapse, not only will they lose thousands of innocent lives, but whoever they want to disappear from Afghanistan won't ever even leave Afghanistan.
 
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