West ignores lessons of Soviet humiliation in Afghanistan

[A1Kaid]

"So what do we get from the ME other than a corrupt and monopolistic oil cartel and endless chants of 'Death to America'?"-gambit

Their corruption hurts us but benefits you, so don't complain.

 

[Thomas]

A lot of people, especially in Europe, used to suspect Bush and American government for 9/11 attacks as they thought many fingers pointing at them. Why was the world quiet about that? Plus it again didn't gave them any right to invade Afghanistan because Afghans weren't involved in it, plus in first few days of their invasion they made sure at least 2000 Taliban get killed in Northern Afghanistan. Afghans in South are damn scared of the Western forces because many of the households in the South have been killed for no bloody reason, and also despite of being an majority yet Pashtuns are being ignored completely at every single step. And then Americans wonder why there is so much ethical hatred there. That's why I don't blame them for supporting Taliban, who at least weren't killing them.

Even Bin Laden in audio and video has acknowledged his roll in the attacks.

 

[gambit]

You American, you have the nerve to tell someone that they are not observant of history after you make the most ignorant, imbecilic, and downright foolish comment about the ME's (Middle East) contribution to the world.

Right...Let us see...

Any why do you get those chants? When did these chants begin in modern history? The answer lies in American-Anglo-Saxon-British and overall Western interference, destruction, invasion, sanctions, and occupation of Middle East/Muslim lands...

History will show that the US never had any colonial interests in the ME. The closest the US had as far as colonial interests goes was the PI, and that ended with the end of WW II.

Your support of Israel ever since 1947, the fact that your nation supported the resolution to partition Palestine to establish a Jewish ideological state in the homeland of the Palestinians-who were not responsible for the Holocaust.

But the countries that approved the resolution, which imply they could have NOT approve and their decision would have been final, DID NOT include the US. You might want to check the history books on that. Look it up.

Your nation more than any other has gone out of it's way to subsidize, empower, protect, nourish, and encourage the Jewish State of Israel which has wreaked havoc and hellfire upon the Arab countries specifically the defenseless people of Gaza & West Bank. In fact, your nation has provided Israel with highly sophisticated weapons which it uses to kill innocent Muslims.

So you are saying that the Arab wars against Israel were in response to Israeli aggressions and nothing to do with the hostile reactions to the creation of the Jewish state? Why are you reluctant to come out and say that we provide aid to Israel PURELY for killing Palestinians and nothing to do with defense?

Your Nation, in the summer of 2006 even protested against a ceasefire during the Israel/Lebanon-Hezbollah war, even though the entire world and everyone in the UN Security Council even your ally the UK called for a ceasefire. But your democratically elected President Bush and your despicable UN Ambassador John Bolton openly supported continuation of Israeli onslaught.

Just like any other nation-state, Israel is entitled to a secured border. A ceasefire at that time does not ensure that Lebanon will not stop Hezbollah from using Lebanon as a military base. Hezbollah is supported by Iran. Was Lebanon under threat of being colonized by US or Israel?

Still wonder why your hated?

I do not wonder. I know.

How about your nation has led one of the most bloodiest occupations of Baghdad/Iraq in history. Your occupation of Iraq will be as infamous as the Mongol sacking of Baghdad in 1258 C.E. The destruction of people's property, home raids, raping, killing, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay, Secret Prison, Torture camps, authorization from Senior officials allowing and encouraging this to happen will earn you tremendous hatred and enmity from the Muslims.

That is funny. Now you are saying that the US invaded Iraq for oil. Truth is that the US did the ME a huge favor by taking out Saddam Hussein. When Iraq invaded Kuwait, who led the fight to show the rest of (spineless) ME that taking someone's oil is a no-no? Sure as the sky is blue not a muslim country. It is far easier to chant 'Death to America' than 'Death to Saddam', right?

Now in Afghanistan your soldiers have also harmed many civilians even deliberately, holding suspects without charging them of any crime. Ransacking people's home, your drones killing innocent people. All this and more for more than 8 years now...

Deliberate? Please...Spare me the rhetorics. Errors do happen in wars. If we were deliberate, have no doubt the body counts would be far higher.

Now let me address this other question you raise, rather insult you make.

What did the West get from the Middle East?

Well let's begin with your Third President and Founding Father. Pres. Thomas Jefferson who owned a Quran and had once mentioned it has contributed greatly to his own knowledge.

You people in the West are very ignorant of Muslim scientific & technological achievements. You know that "secularism" you love so much? Well that was founded and developed by Muslim Philosopher Ibn Rushid, whose idea of secularism spread to Europe and inspired many European intellectuals and reformers. The modern day banking systems all use "checks" or "cheques" this was also an invention of the Muslims...

Now I simply cannot go into every single bit of date and invention and science Muslims developed and invented because that is a vast history. But I will tell you that the Muslims for 700-800 years of human history contributed tremendous amounts of scientific knowledge, technological knowledge, political, economic, and social discoveries and improvements to the entire world.

For 700-800 years the Muslims led mankind in all noble human endeavors.

Your country has only been around for 270+ years and already you are mightily arrogant American have the nerve to deride the great contribution of Muslims...

Here are some sources I strongly encourage you to view.

Still funny...

Truth is the most further back in history we can easily claim identification is about 100 years, or roughly our grandparents' time. Beyond that and it becomes more historical interests than genuine emotional attachment and intellectual foundation. As a naturalized US citizen, 20th century Americana is more identifiable to me than mid-19th century slavery Americana. Twentieth century US is much more accommodating to minorities like myself than slavery America. That goes for you as well. You would not survive the ME as it was a couple hundred years ago, being a muslim or not.

But even though I am a naturalized US citizen, I served in the US military honorably for a decade, contributed to US defense as a civilian, and today, in the semicon manufacturing industry, I continue to contribute to the sustainment of the Internet, an American invention that ironically you NEEDED to boast about muslim accomplishments over one thousand years ago. I can claim emotional and intellectual attachments to 20th century US scientific and technological accomplishments far easier than you can for any muslim ones that occured over one thousand years ago, friend.

 

[gambit]

Their corruption hurts us but benefits you, so don't complain.

Yah...One hundred dollars per barrel was certainly a 'benefit'. And speaking of being observant of history, you might want to look up the oil embargo of the mid-70s and who was behind it.

 

[A1Kaid]

Right...Let us see...

History will show that the US never had any colonial interests in the ME. The closest the US had as far as colonial interests goes was the PI, and that ended with the end of WW II.

But the countries that approved the resolution, which imply they could have NOT approve and their decision would have been final, DID NOT include the US. You might want to check the history books on that. Look it up.

So you are saying that the Arab wars against Israel were in response to Israeli aggressions and nothing to do with the hostile reactions to the creation of the Jewish state? Why are you reluctant to come out and say that we provide aid to Israel PURELY for killing Palestinians and nothing to do with defense?

Just like any other nation-state, Israel is entitled to a secured border. A ceasefire at that time does not ensure that Lebanon will not stop Hezbollah from using Lebanon as a military base. Hezbollah is supported by Iran. Was Lebanon under threat of being colonized by US or Israel?

I do not wonder. I know.

That is funny. Now you are saying that the US invaded Iraq for oil. Truth is that the US did the ME a huge favor by taking out Saddam Hussein. When Iraq invaded Kuwait, who led the fight to show the rest of (spineless) ME that taking someone's oil is a no-no? Sure as the sky is blue not a muslim country. It is far easier to chant 'Death to America' than 'Death to Saddam', right?

Deliberate? Please...Spare me the rhetorics. Errors do happen in wars. If we were deliberate, have no doubt the body counts would be far higher.

Still funny...

Truth is the most further back in history we can easily claim identification is about 100 years, or roughly our grandparents' time. Beyond that and it becomes more historical interests than genuine emotional attachment and intellectual foundation. As a naturalized US citizen, 20th century Americana is more identifiable to me than mid-19th century slavery Americana. Twentieth century US is much more accommodating to minorities like myself than slavery America. That goes for you as well. You would not survive the ME as it was a couple hundred years ago, being a muslim or not.

But even though I am a naturalized US citizen, I served in the US military honorably for a decade, contributed to US defense as a civilian, and today, in the semicon manufacturing industry, I continue to contribute to the sustainment of the Internet, an American invention that ironically you NEEDED to boast about muslim accomplishments over one thousand years ago. I can claim emotional and intellectual attachments to 20th century US scientific and technological accomplishments far easier than you can for any muslim ones that occured over one thousand years ago, friend.

"History will show that the US never had any colonial interests in the ME. The closest the US had as far as colonial interests goes was the PI, and that ended with the end of WW II."-gambit

The same history written by westerners? The fact is US may not have a British style colonial interest as this would be less effective to her influence in the ME. However, the US has puppet regime it has strong connections and influences over, i.e. Emir Abdullah of Jordan and Pres. Hosni Mubarak of Egypt, not to mention the other subservient regimes in the Gulf countries. This in fact is more effective and less costly than direct colonial interest in US's endeavor to influence the ME. Not to mention your satellite ally currently occupying ME's territory Israel... So this "history will show that the US never had colonial interest in the ME." What it does has is interest to control, manipulate, and strongly influence the ME.

"But the countries that approved the resolution, which imply they could have NOT approve and their decision would have been final, DID NOT include the US. You might want to check the history books on that. Look it up."

What is this nonsense, you need to wise up.

"The division was to take effect on the date of British withdrawal from the Mandate Territory of Palestine. Of the permanent members of the Security Council, France, the United States, and the Soviet Union voted the resolution while the Republic of China and United Kingdom abstained.




In favor, (33 countries, 59%):

30 countries (54%) initially in favour:
Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Byelorussian SSR, Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Iceland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Poland, Sweden, South Africa, Ukrainian SSR, United States of America, Soviet Union, Uruguay, Venezuela.

An additional 3 (5%) switched to in favor:
Haiti, Liberia, Philippines.

Against, (13 countries, 23%):

Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen.

Abstentions, (10 countries, 18%):

Argentina, Chile, Republic of China, Colombia, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, Mexico, United Kingdom, Yugoslavia.

Absent, (1 countries , 0%):

Thailand

Source: United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(Information on voting is accurate according to UN results)

Did the US or did it not support/favor/ and vote for the Partitioning of Palestine? Answer is clear except to those who are in delusion.

"So you are saying that the Arab wars against Israel were in response to Israeli aggressions and nothing to do with the hostile reactions to the creation of the Jewish state? Why are you reluctant to come out and say that we provide aid to Israel PURELY for killing Palestinians and nothing to do with defense?"-gambit

You need to read closely. The creation of Israel the occupation of Israel and the evils it has sprung upon the Palestinians and other Arabs is a tremendous source and generation of conflict, that the lights of your nation and many in the West originally supported and help materialize through your political powers and declaration. You don't take responsibility for your actions.

You mention that the US provides AID to Israel for defense. Was it needed to provide Israel with weaponry and technology that give it more power than all it's near by neighbors, yet you still consider this necessary defense? It's one thing to provide defense but the US has given Israel war machines and weaponry that makes it many times powerful over it's enemies...

But Israel is an occupier and this defense that you have subsidized is used to attack and kill innocent civilians. Actually many Israeli soldiers have come out publicly and have mentioned their military superiors encouraged them to shoot civilians, shoot to kill, and shoot anyone you see because their lives don't matter. In fact, the Israelis use what even most of the World considers now to be called "collective punishment"...Yet you still want to argue about Israel's defense needs. If anyone in the Middle East needs defense it's the people of Gaza & West Bank, how about supplying them with their defense needs...

"That is funny. Now you are saying that the US invaded Iraq for oil. Truth is that the US did the ME a huge favor by taking out Saddam Hussein. When Iraq invaded Kuwait, who led the fight to show the rest of (spineless) ME that taking someone's oil is a no-no? Sure as the sky is blue not a muslim country. It is far easier to chant 'Death to America' than 'Death to Saddam', right?

Deliberate? Please...Spare me the rhetorics. Errors do happen in wars. If we were deliberate, have no doubt the body counts would be far higher."

As I said before you need to read closely, I didn't say a damn thing about oil.

Now let me teach you unobservant of history American, when Iraq invaded Kuwait it wasn't over merely capturing oil fields. Saddam was trying to re-unify the old Iraq which consisted of the lands of Kuwait. When the British first arrived in the Middle East during WWI they had discovered the Gulf contains rich oil fields and what they did was carve out a territory of Iraq now known as Kuwait, and set up a puppet regime their that would kindly offer them as much oil as they needed. This state of Kuwait was originally South East Iraq. So it wasn't about Saddam capturing Kuwaiti oil, truth is Saddam had enough oil and was trying to reunify his country.


"to boast about muslim accomplishments over one thousand years ago. I can claim emotional and intellectual attachments to 20th century US scientific and technological accomplishments far easier than you can for any muslim ones that occured over one thousand years ago, friend."

First of all many "US scientific and technological accomplishments" were made by minorities or expats themselves and no native born Americans, so their goes your source of pride. Also your BS about you can makes US scientific and technological accomplishments far easier than I can make for Muslims ones is just petty arrogance and untrue. Though you may have more accessible knowledge to US accomplishments because of millions of contemporary sources available to you than my accessibility to ME scientific accomplishments over a thousand years, though this does not equate with a greater output of scientific and technological contribution. Though if You wish to test me? I assure you will lose.

"Still funny..."-gambit

What is funny is your disability to comprehend history in a holistic manner, instead of snipping certain events of history and attempting to make false connections. Not only that but your inability to defend yourself and your country in this debate.


Maybe not funny but for you sure must be embarrassing...

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Internet is not an american invention---rather a european invention---CERN.

 

[A1Kaid]

Yah...One hundred dollars per barrel was certainly a 'benefit'. And speaking of being observant of history, you might want to look up the oil embargo of the mid-70s and who was behind it.

Don't be simple minded paying $100 a barrel for a few summer months is a great trade off when your able to have puppet regimes in Jordan, Egypt, and Gulf countries. Not to mention high connections and influence in KSA. Not only that but military bases and military access to the Persian Gulf, military base in Kuwait, and military installations in other areas...Great interest of the US is served. So yes it does benefit you and hurts us.

You want to talk about $100 a barrel, seriously that was pathetic reasoning...

This maybe my last response to you, your simply not worth my intellect nor am I impressed with your historical reasoning...

 

[Thomas]

Hi,

Internet is not an american invention---rather a european invention---CERN.

The Internet is a worldwide network of thousands of computers and computer networks. It is a public, voluntary, and cooperative effort between the connected institutions and is not owned or operated by any single organization. The Internet and Transmission Control Protocols were initially developed in 1973 by American computer scientist Vinton Cerf as part of a project sponsored by the United States Department of Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA) and directed by American engineer Robert Kahn.

The Internet began as a computer network of ARPA (ARPAnet) that linked computer networks at several universities and research laboratories in the United States. The World Wide Web was developed in 1989 by English computer scientist Timothy Berners-Lee for the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN).

"The design of the Internet was done in 1973 and published in 1974. There ensued about 10 years of hard work, resulting in the roll out of Internet in 1983. Prior to that, a number of demonstrations were made of the technology - such as the first three-network interconnection demonstrated in November 1977 linking SATNET, PRNET and ARPANET in a path leading from Menlo Park, CA to University College London and back to USC/ISI in Marina del Rey, CA." . - Vinton Cerf explains the timing:

Source

The internet was invented through a program by DARPA. The world wide web by Timothy Berners-Lee for the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN).




People confuse the two

 

[gambit]

People confuse the two

More like they would rather blindly accept anything anyone said as long as it can diminish the US in any way.

 

[gambit]

The same history written by westerners? The fact is US may not have a British style colonial interest as this would be less effective to her influence in the ME. However, the US has puppet regime it has strong connections and influences over, i.e. Emir Abdullah of Jordan and Pres. Hosni Mubarak of Egypt, not to mention the other subservient regimes in the Gulf countries. This in fact is more effective and less costly than direct colonial interest in US's endeavor to influence the ME. Not to mention your satellite ally currently occupying ME's territory Israel... So this "history will show that the US never had colonial interest in the ME." What it does has is interest to control, manipulate, and strongly influence the ME.

The muslims can write up any history you want. No one is influenced unless there are national interests at stake and since everyone in the ME hate each other's guts, it is in everyone's interests to have an uneasy peace. You do not like it, go and overthrow your government. The Iranians did it with the Shah.

What is this nonsense, you need to wise up.

"The division was to take effect on the date of British withdrawal from the Mandate Territory of Palestine. Of the permanent members of the Security Council, France, the United States, and the Soviet Union voted the resolution while the Republic of China and United Kingdom abstained.

In favor, (33 countries, 59%):

30 countries (54%) initially in favour:
Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Byelorussian SSR, Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Iceland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Poland, Sweden, South Africa, Ukrainian SSR, United States of America, Soviet Union, Uruguay, Venezuela.

An additional 3 (5%) switched to in favor:
Haiti, Liberia, Philippines.

Against, (13 countries, 23%):

Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen.

Abstentions, (10 countries, 18%):

Argentina, Chile, Republic of China, Colombia, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, Mexico, United Kingdom, Yugoslavia.

Absent, (1 countries , 0%):

Thailand

Source: United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(Information on voting is accurate according to UN results)

Did the US or did it not support/favor/ and vote for the Partitioning of Palestine? Answer is clear except to those who are in delusion.

Now it is clear that the person who need to 'wise up' is YOU, not me. As what I highlighted, you brought on the truth and debunked yourself without realizing it.

The Mandate for Palestine was a League of Nations document that allowed Britain to administer Palestine. The US was never a part of the League and therefore had no legal say on what went into the Mandate. If anything, the US was critical of the Mandate and charged that it was little more than a thin disguise to divy up the ME as spoils of war on the defeat of the Ottoman Empire.

The Avalon Project : The Palestine Mandate

The Council of the League of Nations:

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them; and

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country; and

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country; and

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have selected His Britannic Majesty as the Mandatory for Palestine; and

Whereas the mandate in respect of Palestine has been formulated in the following terms and submitted to the Council of the League for approval; and

Whereas His Britannic Majesty has accepted the mandate in respect of Palestine and undertaken to exercise it on behalf of the League of Nations in conformity with the following provisions; and

Whereas by the afore-mentioned Article 22 (paragraph 8), it is provided that the degree of authority, control or administration to be exercised by the Mandatory, not having been previously agreed upon by the Members of the League, shall be explicitly defined by the Council of the League Of Nations;

Here is Article 22...

Avalon Project - The Covenant of the League of Nations

ARTICLE 22.

Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory.

In effect, Britain seemingly had every intention to create a Jewish homeland with all the legal trappings of a nation-state recognized by other nation-states. Jordan was one of those 'Certain communities'. So when Britain decided to terminate the Mandate, by that time the UN had became an established institution acceptable to most, including the US, UN 181 was the inevitable result of the decision to terminate the Mandate.

Nation: A people with some common bonds.

Country: A general geographical location.

Nation-state: A politically recognized governing body over a territory whose borders may or may not enclose a 'country'.

What Britain did with the Mandate was to establish 'a country', meaning a general geographical locale, that would have significant moral, emotional and intellectual attachments to Jews everywhere -- Palestine, and what UN 181 did was to establish politically recognizable borders, which are necessary, for those 'Certain communities' so they can become further independent. UN 181 was only the second half, not the whole on a time scale, on the creation of the Jewish state. Jordan became another creation.

Europe is a 'country'. Asia is a 'country'. Africa is a 'country'. But there are many nation-states inside each 'country'. A Frenchman can claim dual identities: French and European. But the Frenchman could never claim the German identity. The German could never claim Spaniard. Same for Palestine, once the borders of UN 181 was recognized by the international community, it was intended that an Israeli could not claim Jordanian identity. Israel and Jordan are politically distinct nation-states inside Palestine and even wikipedia has it...

Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In its broader meaning as a geographical term, Palestine can refer to an area that includes contemporary Israel and the Palestinian territories, parts of Jordan, and parts of Lebanon and Syria. In its narrow meaning, it can refer to the area within the boundaries of the former British Mandate of Palestine (1920-1948) west of the Jordan River.

On the other side of the world, also within the same time frame of post WW II period, another 'country' also had similar designs upon it. Southeast Asia, which included Annam, Laos and Cambodia, were under French colonial interest. The US, under Roosevelt, intended to take SE Asia away from France and put the region under a UN trusteeship until each of the three peoples are able to govern themselves. Roosevelt died before his plan for SE Asia was proposed to the UN and communist expansion into the region effectively destroyed any alternatives. The result was the Vietnam War.

The point here is that as far as Israel is concerned, any US role in 'creating' the Jewish state have been grossly exaggerated. After WW II, the world realized that an imperfect international forum to attempt to settle international disputes and to preserve peace was better than none at all, so the flawed UN became acceptable. The partitioning of Palestine via UN 181 was a natural extension of the Mandate for Palestine so when the US, with those other nation-states who supported 181, we were doing what is acceptable, to recognize a set of borders, which referenced the words from the Mandate "...boundaries as may be fixed by them". The preparation of Palestine in order to have partitions the US had nothing or very little involvement in it, that was the Brits. Good fences make good neighbors and borders are supposed to serve the same function. Even the Soviets went along. Why are you not enraged at them? Is it because the Soviets later sold plenty of arms to the Arabs that earned the muslims' forgiveness?

You need to read closely. The creation of Israel the occupation of Israel and the evils it has sprung upon the Palestinians and other Arabs is a tremendous source and generation of conflict, that the lights of your nation and many in the West originally supported and help materialize through your political powers and declaration. You don't take responsibility for your actions.

Funny how none of the Arabs really had any issues with their countries created from the drawn and quartered carcass of the Ottoman Empire. Guess the oil lubricated really well.

You mention that the US provides AID to Israel for defense. Was it needed to provide Israel with weaponry and technology that give it more power than all it's near by neighbors, yet you still consider this necessary defense? It's one thing to provide defense but the US has given Israel war machines and weaponry that makes it many times powerful over it's enemies...

You have got to be joking. Where do you think the Arabs got their weapons from? And how much did they bought? And the combined forces numbered how much more than the Israeli military? The muslims got whipped by the Jews and you are whining about how unfair that the Jews got superior weapons? May be competency has something important in warfare?

But Israel is an occupier and this defense that you have subsidized is used to attack and kill innocent civilians. Actually many Israeli soldiers have come out publicly and have mentioned their military superiors encouraged them to shoot civilians, shoot to kill, and shoot anyone you see because their lives don't matter. In fact, the Israelis use what even most of the World considers now to be called "collective punishment"...Yet you still want to argue about Israel's defense needs. If anyone in the Middle East needs defense it's the people of Gaza & West Bank, how about supplying them with their defense needs...

So you are saying that immediately after the creation of Israel, the Jews began a military campaign to expand Israel's borders and that resistance to a Jewish state by the Arabs had nothing to do with all of this?

As I said before you need to read closely, I didn't say a damn thing about oil.

You equate American presence in Iraq with Mongol invasion for spoils, so what else does Iraq have to offer US other than oil? So how much oil did we looted from Iraq?

Now let me teach you unobservant of history American, when Iraq invaded Kuwait it wasn't over merely capturing oil fields. Saddam was trying to re-unify the old Iraq which consisted of the lands of Kuwait. When the British first arrived in the Middle East during WWI they had discovered the Gulf contains rich oil fields and what they did was carve out a territory of Iraq now known as Kuwait, and set up a puppet regime their that would kindly offer them as much oil as they needed. This state of Kuwait was originally South East Iraq. So it wasn't about Saddam capturing Kuwaiti oil, truth is Saddam had enough oil and was trying to reunify his country.

You are probably one of the very few who actually bought that line. Saddam Hussein accused Kuwait of 'lateral drilling' into Iraqi territory while selling low on the market to depress Iraqi oil exports.

First of all many "US scientific and technological accomplishments" were made by minorities or expats themselves and no native born Americans, so their goes your source of pride.

Talk about a baseless claim and ignorant to boot. Minority does not automatically equate to foreign born so you are making a fool out of yourself by implying that only whites can be an 'American'. May be skin color determine citizenship where you are, but certainly not the US. Am not white and am a US citizen. Freaking amazing.

Also your BS about you can makes US scientific and technological accomplishments far easier than I can make for Muslims ones is just petty arrogance and untrue. Though you may have more accessible knowledge to US accomplishments because of millions of contemporary sources available to you than my accessibility to ME scientific accomplishments over a thousand years, though this does not equate with a greater output of scientific and technological contribution. Though if You wish to test me? I assure you will lose.

Even muslim scholars who are critical of the West bemoans the lack of scientific and technological contributions from muslim STATES. No one is talking about individual persons. A genius in a country where his intellect is not appreciated can produce nothing. A country where even though there is not one genius but ten above average intellects and whose creativities are appreciated and exploited will produce great things. That is how the US entices diversities from around the world, by having a culture that encourages creativity and capitalism reward those creativeness. The muslim world was like that once, a looooong time ago. What happened? Let me guess...It is the fault of the West and the Jews, right?

Don't be simple minded paying $100 a barrel for a few summer months is a great trade off when your able to have puppet regimes in Jordan, Egypt, and Gulf countries. Not to mention high connections and influence in KSA. Not only that but military bases and military access to the Persian Gulf, military base in Kuwait, and military installations in other areas...Great interest of the US is served. So yes it does benefit you and hurts us.

You want to talk about $100 a barrel, seriously that was pathetic reasoning...

Right...So what are those 'interests'? Fending off the Soviets, may be? Care to explain why is it that the majority of ME militaries have Soviet weapons if they have our 'puppet regimes' all this time? And in what ways does it hurt the muslims? That you cannot wipe Israel off the map? In order to have 'puppet regimes' there must be an enemy to use those 'puppets', right? So who is the enemy?

Looky here...The muslims countries are corrupt, inept, and despotic because of internal issues, not because of US. Japan and South Korea, both countries ravaged by wars, and yet for being US 'puppets' they are doing quite well since the end of WW II. Their people are not starving like in Africa, where we have no 'puppets'. I call three US states home: Hawaii, Florida and Nevada. I see Japanese and Koreans having a great time in all three states. No puppets there. Your PC is made by both peoples and the only contribution from the ME in your computer is the oil needed to create the plastic. You need to stop, the world is getting wearied of the perpetual victimhood coming out of the ME. They see supposedly American 'puppets' like Israel, Japan and South Korea, lands that are scarce in natural resources, but far more productive in just about all aspects of GDP than other supposedly US 'puppets' like Saudi Arabia, Jordan or Egypt and they wonder if there really is any sense in the muslims keep calling themselves victims of these 'puppet' regimes.

This maybe my last response to you, your simply not worth my intellect nor am I impressed with your historical reasoning...

May be it should be me who should say that to you. Anyone who actually swallowed that line from Saddam Hussein about Kuwait is off his intellectual rockers. By the way, it is "you're", a contraction of 'you are', not 'your' which is a possessive. Before you start making comments about other's intelligence, make sure you are above reproach.