Were Muslim Rajputs also honour bound to commit Saka and Jauhar when faced with overwhelming odds?

[waz]

Somehow I always thought you were a Kashmiri.

No, not ethnic, that's what people usually mean by Kashmiri. We hail from AJK, so the tribes who live there of non-Kashmiri stock.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Somehow I always thought you were a Kashmiri.

Pakistanis are the sons of the soil, we are not the children of some invaders like portrayed by RSS and Indians.

We have genes from IVC and subsequent Aryan/Iranic migrations, mainly.

This has a deeper cut ... in their psyche, Hinduism is a realm... and dharma is construct which encompasses most areas of life ... it also has hindutva nativist mythology intertwined as well ... and a hindu wish to bring everything and everyone back under dharma and convert or kill all those who left hinduism.

In my understanding(assumptions) Kshatriya were perhaps the original hindus... the ones who brought their vicarious religious beliefs to south asia... with their shamans and all
... these intertwined with native belief systems and created the dharmic construct which coopted everything under its umbrella and ofcourse after centuries and countless changes and iterations we have this modern iteration of hinduism... whereas Kshatriya remained free of their shamans ... natives got owned.

You are 100% correct. Our ancestors of modern Pakistan rejected the caste system as an unjust innovation and dietary restrictions as paradoxical, the ancient Aryans never believed in such things. Our ancestors have been eating beef and consuming meat for thousands of years. This explains our culinary heritage.

When Aryans migrated to what is now India, they introduced many changes in social structure, hierarchy, and religion. They became influenced by the natives. They even adopted the idols of those people and made them chief gods.

Aryans/Iranic ancient religion was similar to that of Babylonians, ancient Persians (before Zoroaster,) and other Central Asian nomads.

Instead of cow worship, Aryans/Iranics idolized bulls and lions similar to ancient Greece, Babylon, and Persia, mainly for their physical strength.

About the Rajput clans of Punjab, they were actually a product of Scythian/Kushan/Hephthalite migrations mixed with IVC/Greek/Aryans fron before. As the aristocratic class, they became known as Rajputs. In the period immediately before Islam, Rajput clans vied for each other for ascendancy. Many families were decimated in this internecine warfare which lasted several hundred years. It was the true survival of the fittest.

Alhamdulilah Islam came to end this useless loss of life and barbarism.

Based on my own research on the Internet. My own father or immediate family don't really have much of an interest in history. My grandfather did but he passed away before I was born.
We used to have a family tree of sorts in a book which has been missing, and there was a person who was assigned to record each new child every year, but I was told the Brits took him to work in London Museum, so he disappeared after having recorded me in his book. (Early Ninetees) and since my family had little to no interest in his records so no one really made any efforts to reach him or get the records or whatever.
Though it's something I should probably explore.

So everything I know is based around my own research and digging. Apart from the fact that I carry various facial features which would be like Central Asians including eyes and hair, and I get mistaken to be a Persian by Persians and they would initiate talk in Farsi only to know I didn't get a single word they spoke.
Which kinda explains Scythian origins, but ofcourse there is so much more I could learn if I could get access to this bookkeeper named "Ra" who is in London right now and living his last days in old age.

P.S: I've never seen the family tree in Sialkot fort but I suppose it only covers the rulers of the fort and not necessarily the entire history.

You are right, the origin of Rajputs are warlike nomadic tribes which settled into Punjab and other regions in waves. We do have fair complexion, light hair, and light eye color among us, and intermarriage with Mughal royalty also gave us Asiatic phenotypes.

You can see even in Genetic maps, Punjab has a larger percentage of Asian (Mongol) genetic makeup than other regions, this is a result of Iranic migrations and intermarriage with Mughals.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sorry, I was cooking dinner - rice, sambar and vankaya vepudu (more or less begun bhaja, Andhra style).

No, I am not theist....Gun to the head, my normative philosophy would be a mix between non-theistic Upanishadic Immanent Consciousness, Germanic Idealism, Spinoza's "Divine"....

Fascinating, because many people nowadays have anchored themselves in the Upanishads and rejected the Puranic theology; not particularly difficult, considering that the Brahmos did that nearly a couple of centuries earlier, and for much the same reasons: an increasing exasperation with the floundering and flailing around of Puranic exegetes in the face of Abrahamic religions.

What's the deal with Poundriya Kshatriya Sir?

This needs circumspection. This name, too, shortens to another, demotic variant, present in embryo in the first, second, half of the fourth and the fifth letters in the pseudo-classical variant. The community has banned use of that short version.

to be frank The Kshatriya appellation loses meaning when one moves east of Bihar or south of Madhya Pradesh...

Even within this area. Since social stratification demanded servitude from the others (bar the Brahmins) in exchange for providing military defence, when push came to shove, the self-elected defenders then had to defend and that was not good for the survival chances of the caste as such. They slowly dwindled, and having refused to accept others into the social function that they represented, they vanished.

It is not coincidence that Rajputs came into the reckoning around the end of the Gupta Empire and its immediate successors. First, the immigrating tribes that the Rajputs, the core set around the Thar, may have sprung from, that is, the Scythians, the Parthians and the Kushanas, the Moon Tribe of the Yueh-chi, needed time to settle down and time to reconcile themselves to the permanent loss of their heimland north-east of the Caspian, and to adjust to the Brahmin proposition that they align with the vanished defenders of society. Second, there was powerful opposition at that time, between the coming of the Sakas and the first post-Gupta rulers, in the form of the Imperial Guptas.

That of course doesnot mean the rest of the lot didnot have their all marauding warriors...Palas,Vijaynagari Naiks,Rashtra Kutas and many more bear testimony to that fact.....But these appellations are a feature of the Brahmanism heartland....I would love your take on the relation between Vedic religion/Brahmanism and the "coterminous"(lol love that word) Bengal region....What was the religious history of pre-Buddhist Bengal?

Very good points. I will take till tomorrow or so to respond as I have to do my coaching homework.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Sorry, I was cooking dinner - rice, sambar and vankaya vepudu (more or less begun bhaja, Andhra style).



Fascinating, because many people nowadays have anchored themselves in the Upanishads and rejected the Puranic theology; not particularly difficult, considering that the Brahmos did that nearly a couple of centuries earlier, and for much the same reasons: an increasing exasperation with the floundering and flailing around of Puranic exegetes in the face of Abrahamic religions.

Lucchi in my opinion is a better combination with begun bhaja, but too much labour intensive. Yes, but along with a growing number of Buddhists, I too reject any notion of Karma or rebirth. If there is a soul inside the body, then it just dissolves and merges into other "souls"/"spiritual objects" just as cells from my body have merged into the environment even during my lifetime.

The genesis of Brahmo Samaj is an interesting case...Why is it that most radical of Hindu reform movements arise from the periphery of Brahmanism heartland? Brahmo Samaj, Arya Samaj,Lingayat movement etc.. As long as anybody from the higher caste (preferably Brahmin) is not coming out from the upper or middle Ganga plains, Hinduism and by extension Indian society will remain beholden to intense casteism, magical thinking, non-scientific worldview. It must be noted that the most successful of rebellion/reform movements started from the very centre of gravity of Brahmanism itself: The first sermon of the Buddha was at the deer park in Varanasi

This needs circumspection. This name, too, shortens to another, demotic variant, present in embryo in the first, second, half of the fourth and the fifth letters in the pseudo-classical variant. The community has banned use of that short version.

Lolz the vernacular for derriere

Even within this area. Since social stratification demanded servitude from the others (bar the Brahmins) in exchange for providing military defence, when push came to shove, the self-elected defenders then had to defend and that was not good for the survival chances of the caste as such. They slowly dwindled, and having refused to accept others into the social function that they represented, they vanished.

It is not coincidence that Rajputs came into the reckoning around the end of the Gupta Empire and its immediate successors. First, the immigrating tribes that the Rajputs, the core set around the Thar, may have sprung from, that is, the Scythians, the Parthians and the Kushanas, the Moon Tribe of the Yueh-chi, needed time to settle down and time to reconcile themselves to the permanent loss of their heimland north-east of the Caspian, and to adjust to the Brahmin proposition that they align with the vanished defenders of society. Second, there was powerful opposition at that time, between the coming of the Sakas and the first post-Gupta rulers, in the form of the Imperial Guptas.



Very good points. I will take till tomorrow or so to respond as I have to do my coaching homework.

I wish somebody wrote a novel based on the 5th, 6th, 7th century North India..."Kaler Mondira" by Shirshendu Mukhopadhay is perhaps the only one based in that period....Mostly based around the repulsion of KIdarites around 455 AD by Skandagupta..Still I wish somebody painted that world more vividly, the way GRR Martin does in his pseudo-12th century fantasy epics

would be looking forward to your aforementioned response

Something recently I came across, though not accurate as it enters the proliferation age of 19th century (majorly misses Paixhan's Gun-->the first explosive shell artillery)

 

[third eye]

Yes from dad's side, grandfather's line.

What clan of Rajputs please ? If I may ask

 

[War Thunder]

Unlike you kuffars, Muslims do not die in fear.

If we have to die, we take the enemy with us.

A Muslim woman will be a suicide bomber rather committing Jauhar.

Ignorant?
A suicide bomber has anything to do with being a Muslim, knowing the destination is hell for any one taking their own life for whatever the reason? Why do you people end up losing logic in your hate?

"And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden [to be killed] except by [legal] right. This has He instructed you that you may use reason [Qur`an 6: 151]"

"And do not kill yourselves [or one another]. Indeed, Allah is to you ever Merciful [Qur`an 4: 29]"

"Thabit Ibn Al-Dahak narrated that the Prophet [peace and blessings be upon him] said, “Whosoever kills himself with anything in this world will be tortured with it on the Day of Judgment.”

"It is impermissible to commit suicide to avoid evils such as rape and torture for instance. It is impermissible for a girl to commit suicide for fear of rape; she must defend herself against her attacker even if this means killing him. If she is killed in the process, she is considered a martyr because she died to defend her honor. The same applies to those who face humiliation and torture. They should resist their assailants and it is impermissible for them to commit suicide under the pretext that it is more honorable to kill themselves than to accept captivity and torture.
A Muslim is obligated to exercise patience at times of affliction and fight injustice to the best of his ability. He is not commanded to commit suicide to escape afflictions."

That's exactly the difference between we Muslims and you kuffars.

Everyone will die but you kuffars die out of fear while we Muslims die fighting taking enemy with us as we die.

You are a Muslim? I failed to find that in your manners of self exhibition.
Probably its better to try to be a Muslim before jumping on the train?

They are a caste of cultivators in West Bengal (I don't think we had them in the east; they were mainly located in what was known as Rarh, centred around the Burdwan district, say, Burdwan, Bankura, Birbhum and Midnapore (all these in old spelling). The dominating castes engaged in agriculture were called the Noboshakha, the nine branches. Their other name is Aguri.

To be honest, they have little to do with Rajput.






Imagine sitting on this treasure and NOT digging it up further! You, Sir, should be shot. Do, please, go into this, and remember, I have first dibs on whatever turns up. This is so exciting.



You might have noticed the central Asian caste of features in upper class Indian Rajputs (if you get to meet any) and in some Gujaratis. The mainstream opinion among historians is that these were descendants of the Scythians, who set up their rule as far in as Ujjain, after having come into first Afghanistan (where the old province of Arachosia was renamed Sakasthan, that descends today as Seistan), and then into western India, trans- as well as cis-Indus, and in further on until Ujjain for sure. You have every reason to suspect a connection with the Scythians; that part of south Asia was full of alarums and excursions from the Achaemenid Empire, the first human empire, onwards, well into the Gupta period.

Not to take these things too seriously, but there are gene-mapping tests today, that can give you fascinating insights into your antecedents. This is entirely for you to decide; there are those who object vehemently to such genetic tests, and it is not my intention to suggest something, anything inappropriate or intrusive.



I hope and pray that you get to see the old man if he is still alive.

What a fascinating story!!!

Ok that's a lot of stuff I don't know about yet. I had a lot of interest in all of it in my teens and early twenties but kinda lost it recently.
The same reason I know quite a bit of Sanskrit and everything Hinduism, even what most hindus don't.
There was a time I explored adding "Singh" to my name. My name is also a Kshatriya kind of name which means "battlefield commander"/ "Warrior" in Sanskrit and its kinda where it originated, though Arabs also use it now with different meanings. My father saw it in a dream that he is naming his son with it before I was born lol.
But later I discovered Singh was never used by my ancestors. At least not the ones I knew of in recent history of them being Hindu.

I will definitely try to explore this further, I heard there is some distant cousin of my father who might be in touch with this bookkeeper or might have obtained the records from him. A good lead to explore when I travel back after a few months.

And reading the stuff you and Juggernaut is posting, kinda makes me feel I hardly know anything.
And being a personality type who seeks to be unique through knowledge that's not an acceptable state of being lol. I am gonna do something about it for sure.

 

[Joe Shearer]

This is not the reply promised, just hurried jottings on the fly.

Lucchi in my opinion is a better combination with begun bhaja, but too much labour intensive.

Yes, I have a lot of friends who want me to fight to the last particle of amchur for culinary quality; they don't have to make the damn luchi. I'm all right with vankaya vepudu, but finished off a large brinjal, have no more, and will use potato to make the potato equivalent.

Yes, but along with a growing number of Buddhists, I too reject any notion of Karma or rebirth. If there is a soul inside the body, then it just dissolves and merges into other "souls"/"spiritual objects" just as cells from my body have merged into the environment even during my lifetime.

Interesting. Noted.

The genesis of Brahmo Samaj is an interesting case...Why is it that most radical of Hindu reform movements arise from the periphery of Brahmanism heartland? Brahmo Samaj, Arya Samaj,Lingayat movement etc.. As long as anybody from the higher caste (preferably Brahmin) is not coming out from the upper or middle Ganga plains, Hinduism and by extension Indian society will remain beholden to intense casteism, magical thinking, non-scientific worldview. It must be noted that the most successful of rebellion/reform movements started from the very centre of gravity of Brahmanism itself: The first sermon of the Buddha was at the deer park in Varanasi

You need to immerse yourself in this period, one of the most fascinating in Indian history, the time of the Mahajanapadas. There was an intense churning going on, and it bore an uncanny resemblance to another period at another place: this being PDF, I will say more about that elsewhere.

One clue is Boudhayan's dismissal of the land east of Gaya as uncivilised and void of Brahmins. That was roughly in 600 BC, just about at the time that the Buddha and Mahavira were about to burst forth onto the world's consciousness. Also about the time of Panini in his Takshila fastness, on the verges of Achaemenid rule, sitting codifying the ancient tongue that had run on for maybe a millennium, removing verb forms and nouns from the language that were obsolete or considered archaic, no longer used in what had become in a very gradual shift of the centre of gravity the heart of Aryavarta. So both the extreme east, Magadha and its eastern frontiers, and the Punjab and its north-western boundaries, were marches, borderlands that were excluded from the civilised centre. The outlying tribes were almost alien; the most remote were the Parama Kamboja, and it was from their linguistic usages that Sanskrit was 'rescued' and put into strict rules that governed it ever since.

The deer park at Varanasi was plumb bang centre in all this; it rewards us better to look at the legacy of the Lichchavis, who were further to the east. The Buddha himself was born in the Nepal-India borderland; this has become such an emotive issue that it is most comfortable to refer to this in general, placatory terms.

Quite honestly, you are on your own in this. The matters that need raising are far too large in volume to punish PDF and its readers with notes and posts.

Happy hunting.

Lolz the vernacular for derriere

I wish somebody wrote a novel based on the 5th, 6th, 7th century North India..."Kaler Mondira" by Shirshendu Mukhopadhay is perhaps the only one based in that period....Mostly based around the repulsion of KIdarites around 455 AD by Skandagupta..Still I wish somebody painted that world more vividly, the way GRR Martin does in his pseudo-12th century fantasy epics

Have you read the Sadashiv series?

would be looking forward to your aforementioned response

Soon, I hope, after this weekend. Some log-jams in my schedules until then.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Yes from dad's side, grandfather's line.

Kashmiri Muslims are Rajputs too?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Ignorant?
A suicide bomber has anything to do with being a Muslim, knowing the destination is hell for any one taking their own life for whatever the reason? Why do you people end up losing logic in your hate?

"And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden [to be killed] except by [legal] right. This has He instructed you that you may use reason [Qur`an 6: 151]"

"And do not kill yourselves [or one another]. Indeed, Allah is to you ever Merciful [Qur`an 4: 29]"

"Thabit Ibn Al-Dahak narrated that the Prophet [peace and blessings be upon him] said, “Whosoever kills himself with anything in this world will be tortured with it on the Day of Judgment.”

"It is impermissible to commit suicide to avoid evils such as rape and torture for instance. It is impermissible for a girl to commit suicide for fear of rape; she must defend herself against her attacker even if this means killing him. If she is killed in the process, she is considered a martyr because she died to defend her honor. The same applies to those who face humiliation and torture. They should resist their assailants and it is impermissible for them to commit suicide under the pretext that it is more honorable to kill themselves than to accept captivity and torture.
A Muslim is obligated to exercise patience at times of affliction and fight injustice to the best of his ability. He is not commanded to commit suicide to escape afflictions."





You are a Muslim? I failed to find that in your manners of self exhibition.
Probably its better to try to be a Muslim before jumping on the train?

Ok that's a lot of stuff I don't know about yet. I had a lot of interest in all of it in my teens and early twenties but kinda lost it recently.
The same reason I know quite a bit of Sanskrit and everything Hinduism, even what most hindus don't.
There was a time I explored adding "Singh" to my name. My name is also a Kshatriya kind of name which means "battlefield commander"/ "Warrior" in Sanskrit and its kinda where it originated, though Arabs also use it now with different meanings. My father saw it in a dream that he is naming his son with it before I was born lol.
But later I discovered Singh was never used by my ancestors. At least not the ones I knew of in recent history of them being Hindu.

I will definitely try to explore this further, I heard there is some distant cousin of my father who might be in touch with this bookkeeper or might have obtained the records from him. A good lead to explore when I travel back after a few months.

And reading the stuff you and Juggernaut is posting, kinda makes me feel I hardly know anything.
And being a personality type who seeks to be unique through knowledge that's not an acceptable state of being lol. I am gonna do something about it for sure.

You are putting yourself down for nothing. @Juggernaut_is_here and I were engaging in light-weight exchanges on strictly west Bengali (as in four named districts of west Bengal) ethnography. Don't be misled.

A good person to interact with is @RealNapster; he is a mine of information. There are many Pakistani members who have deep veins of information and knowledge, and it is just that the context has to be right to get them to comment.

As for you, you are sitting on treasure. Scholastic treasure.

 

[sid426]

Saka and jauhar were not performed when the adversary was a Hindu. It was performed only and only where mughals/turks were the enemies as they didn't use to spare even the dead bodies in their lust and rapine.

https://www.sanskritimagazine.com/history/haunting-tales-chittorgarh/

 

[waz]

What clan of Rajputs please ? If I may ask

Yes sure Bhati.

Kashmiri Muslims are Rajputs too?

They’re ethnic Kashmiri bro.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Bhati

Bhatti?

 

[waz]

Bhatti?

Another way to spell it.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Another way to spell it.

Wow. I never knew Bhattis were Rajputs too

 

[waz]

Wow. I never knew Bhattis were Rajputs too

Yes one of the most prolific clans.