Were Muslim Rajputs also honour bound to commit Saka and Jauhar when faced with overwhelming odds?

[Joe Shearer]

You can and Muslims do. Only after do they face judgement. Which is not your problem or mine but of the individual who has done so.

I see that you are still making friends and influencing people. More power to your elbow.

Muslim Rajputs did not face such overwhelming odds tbh.
All of my ancestors were Hindus and Mongol Babur overcame them in Sialkot after three consecutive assaults. Most of them died there, specially the women and children, others got displaced.

What I know is my grand grand fathers came to the area where I was born while it was empty and took it over. Two brothers marked their area while riding on horse back. Much of it was later given away as donations to the poor or gifts to the Brits. Yet, my father still inherited a great deal of land.
They became Muslims some generations after that, while still carrying influence and rule over vast areas.

They were Scythians, coming to the land and establishing the Chandravansh.
The family tree is still available in the Sialkot fort while the Brits took the guy who used to maintain the record with them and appointed him in some Museum there or so I heard. I was called Ra something...

More information please.
How is it known that they are Scythian? This is the canonical version of mainstream history, but is there some additional proof that we don't know about?
Is it possible to have someone inspect the family tree? to try and date it, and for no other purpose.

 

[War Thunder]

More information please.
How is it known that they are Scythian? This is the canonical version of mainstream history, but is there some additional proof that we don't know about?
Is it possible to have someone inspect the family tree? to try and date it, and for no other purpose.

Based on my own research on the Internet. My own father or immediate family don't really have much of an interest in history. My grandfather did but he passed away before I was born.
We used to have a family tree of sorts in a book which has been missing, and there was a person who was assigned to record each new child every year, but I was told the Brits took him to work in London Museum, so he disappeared after having recorded me in his book. (Early Ninetees) and since my family had little to no interest in his records so no one really made any efforts to reach him or get the records or whatever.
Though it's something I should probably explore.

So everything I know is based around my own research and digging. Apart from the fact that I carry various facial features which would be like Central Asians including eyes and hair, and I get mistaken to be a Persian by Persians and they would initiate talk in Farsi only to know I didn't get a single word they spoke.
Which kinda explains Scythian origins, but ofcourse there is so much more I could learn if I could get access to this bookkeeper named "Ra" who is in London right now and living his last days in old age.

P.S: I've never seen the family tree in Sialkot fort but I suppose it only covers the rulers of the fort and not necessarily the entire history.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Sorry, hadn't read as far as your comment before asking what that meant.

However, let me remind you that nobody is entitled to describe himself as Suryavanshi, Chandravanshi or Agnivanshi after conversion. It's a one-way street.



Are you the same as Sadgops? Just asking.

Aguri .........................What we do know (from family history) that we were on good talking terms with the Bardhamman Raja till even the 1940s and 50s.......If you do know more about the genesis of the Aguris, I would be all ears

 

[Joe Shearer]

Ok what exactly is that.
I thought I educated myself enough with the history through various sources and yet Ugra Kshatriya is something I'm hearing for the first time.

They are a caste of cultivators in West Bengal (I don't think we had them in the east; they were mainly located in what was known as Rarh, centred around the Burdwan district, say, Burdwan, Bankura, Birbhum and Midnapore (all these in old spelling). The dominating castes engaged in agriculture were called the Noboshakha, the nine branches. Their other name is Aguri.

To be honest, they have little to do with Rajput.

Yeah traitorous bunch
Selling out the land and its honor for personal gains

Based on my own research on the Internet. My own father or immediate family don't really have much of an interest in history. My grandfather did but he passed away before I was born.
We used to have a family tree of sorts in a book which has been missing, and there was a person who was assigned to record each new child every year, but I was told the Brits took him to work in London Museum, so he disappeared after having recorded me in his book. (Early Ninetees) and since my family had little to no interest in his records so no one really made any efforts to reach him or get the records or whatever.
Though it's something I should probably explore.

Imagine sitting on this treasure and NOT digging it up further! You, Sir, should be shot. Do, please, go into this, and remember, I have first dibs on whatever turns up. This is so exciting.

So everything I know is based around my own research and digging. Apart from the fact that I carry various facial features which would be like Central Asians including eyes and hair, and I get mistaken to be a Persian by Persians and they would initiate talk in Farsi only to know I didn't get a single word they spoke.

You might have noticed the central Asian caste of features in upper class Indian Rajputs (if you get to meet any) and in some Gujaratis. The mainstream opinion among historians is that these were descendants of the Scythians, who set up their rule as far in as Ujjain, after having come into first Afghanistan (where the old province of Arachosia was renamed Sakasthan, that descends today as Seistan), and then into western India, trans- as well as cis-Indus, and in further on until Ujjain for sure. You have every reason to suspect a connection with the Scythians; that part of south Asia was full of alarums and excursions from the Achaemenid Empire, the first human empire, onwards, well into the Gupta period.

Not to take these things too seriously, but there are gene-mapping tests today, that can give you fascinating insights into your antecedents. This is entirely for you to decide; there are those who object vehemently to such genetic tests, and it is not my intention to suggest something, anything inappropriate or intrusive.

Which kinda explains Scythian origins, but ofcourse there is so much more I could learn if I could get access to this bookkeeper named "Ra" who is in London right now and living his last days in old age.

P.S: I've never seen the family tree in Sialkot fort but I suppose it only covers the rulers of the fort and not necessarily the entire history.

I hope and pray that you get to see the old man if he is still alive.

What a fascinating story!!!

 

[Abdul Rehman Majeed]

A Rajput may not possess much in this world but then again does he need anything other than his lineage,his ancestry and his honour? An honour ,which has been carefully concocted in the crucible of the desert for over a thousand years. Colonial British writers had a much more innocent fascination regarding the Rajputs(and also the Pashtuns), before they repurposed their fascination for Rajput ethnography into making the philosophy of the martial races...anyways there gas been Muslim Rajput dynasties too...prime being the Soomras of Sindh ....Rajput men were honour bound to go out ritualistically and make a heroic last stand outsude the fort (Saka) in face of inevitable defeat while Rajput women were honour bound to commit Jauhar simultaneously within the fortress...It seems here lies the genesis of Rajput identity ....A code of honour no lesser than the seppuku committing Samurais of the Great Yamato Race....The Jauhar Step well would be the heart of any Rajput fortress construction .....

It seems the Rajput was more worried that loss of honour would pollute the bloodline rather than the typical Anglo-Saxon preoccupation that miscegnation would pollute the bloodline ...The first Anglo-Saxon ethnographers encountering the Rajputs must have been stupifued at this much different self-conception of identity

How did Muslim Rajput react when the tide inevitably turned against their favour with the onslaught of lightly Islamicized Mongol dynasties like the Arghun?

Unlike you kuffars, Muslims do not die in fear.

If we have to die, we take the enemy with us.

A Muslim woman will be a suicide bomber rather committing Jauhar.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

Can you show me the picture?

How can his grandmother be a Hindu when his grandfather converted and married some muslim women According to him ?

I found an article... I think it serves the purpose. To be honest I haven't read this particular one myself, yet.

https://www.telegraphindia.com/opinion/iqbal-s-hindu-relations/cid/1027015

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

I see that you are still making friends and influencing people. More power to your elbow.




More information please.
How is it known that they are Scythian? This is the canonical version of mainstream history, but is there some additional proof that we don't know about?
Is it possible to have someone inspect the family tree? to try and date it, and for no other purpose.

Why wouldn’t the women just fight alongside the men instead of committing suicide ..

overwhelmingly less upper body strength that makes draw force or sword arm strength less effective


A Viking shield maiden may be able to take on a South Asian warrior in one on one combat, but can never take on a Viking man

Unlike you kuffars, Muslims do not die in fear.

If we have to die, we take the enemy with us.

A Muslim woman will be a suicide bomber rather committing Jauhar.

What makes you thing others fear death? Did the atheistic Kamikaze pilots fear death? Did the LTTE militants fear death?
Anyways this comment was wholly unnecessary and you are frothing at the mouth with hatred

 

[Joe Shearer]

Aguri .........................What we do know (from family history) that we were on good talking terms with the Bardhamman Raja till even the 1940s and 50s.......If you do know more about the genesis of the Aguris, I would be all ears

I know I owe you a more detailed and informative answer, and promise to get back to you on those points, but just give me a little more time.

In general, Aguris are very prosperous jotedars and members, as a caste, of the Noboshakha. I am not at all confident about the connection or lack of it between Aguris and Sadgops. That is why I would like to gather my thoughts and do the necessary reading before saying anything.

overwhelmingly less upper body strength that makes draw force or sword arm strength less effective


A Viking shield maiden may be able to take on a South Asian warrior in one on one combat, but can never take on a Viking man





What makes you thing others fear death? Did the atheistic Kamikaze pilots fear death? Did the LTTE militants fear death?
Anyways this comment was wholly unnecessary and you are frothing at the mouth with hatred

That last is the village lunatic. Ignore him.

PS: Thank God, if you are theist, on your knees that you were not born a Poundriya Kshatriya!!

 

[Abdul Rehman Majeed]

What makes you thing others fear death? Did the atheistic Kamikaze pilots fear death? Did the LTTE militants fear death?
Anyways this comment was wholly unnecessary and you are frothing at the mouth with hatred

That's exactly the difference between we Muslims and you kuffars.

Everyone will die but you kuffars die out of fear while we Muslims die fighting taking enemy with us as we die.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

I see that you are still making friends and influencing people. More power to your elbow.




More information please.
How is it known that they are Scythian? This is the canonical version of mainstream history, but is there some additional proof that we don't know about?
Is it possible to have someone inspect the family tree? to try and date it, and for no other purpose.

Sorry @Joe Shearer I quoted you previously but forgot to pen in my observations...Eventhough Scythians,Pahlavis,Kushanas,Huns etc played a huge role in the history of the North-West , they donot seem to come up in DNA analysis...Though steppe intrusion during the bronze age is ubiquitous in the genetic evidence...Something tells me around a million to 2 million Indo-Europeans/Aryans moved into the subcontinent in the bronze age, when the population of the entire subcontinent could not have been more than 10-15 million...This had a massive genetic impact for all ages to come ...I also surmise that this migration was a single wave....Since they could not have moved in earlier than the onset of second millenium BCE and the Rig Veda starts from either 1700 or 1500 BCE......The whole lot of Aryans must have come over in a single wave and may have lost the memory of their migration over a few hundred years or so ....

So even if some Rajput clans may descend from the Alchon Huns, some from Kidarites...and even if some Jatts may descend from the Scythians......The genetic evidence shows only the massive Steppe intrusion of the bronaze age


May be a 2 million group coming in a 15 million superset is bound to show up in the genetic register.....but 400,000 Kushanas moving in at a time when the subcontinent already hosted 50 million, cannot possibly show up


This is the relevant portion from the latest state-of-the-art study regarding the genetic history of the subcontinent. The Reich Lab of Harvard has revolutionized the history of India in the last 7-10 years.


"By the Late Bronze Age, ESHG-related admixture became ubiquitous, as documented by our time transect from Kazakhstan and ancient DNA data from the Iron Age and from later periods in Turan and the Central Steppe, including Scythians, Sarmatians, Kushans, and Huns (29, 52). Thus, these first millennium BCE to first millennium CE archaeological cultures with documented cultural and political impacts on South Asia cannot be important sources for the Steppe pastoralist–related ancestry widespread in South Asia today (because present-day South Asians have too little East Asian–related ancestry to be consistent with deriving from these groups), providing an example of how genetic data can rule out scenarios that are plausible on the basis of the archaeological and historical evidence alone (13) (fig. S52). Instead, our analysis shows that the only plausible source for the Steppe ancestry is Steppe Middle to Late Bronze Age groups, who not only fit as a source for South Asia but who we also document as having spread into Turan and mixed with BMAC-related individuals at sites in Kazakhstan in this period"

The formation of human populations in South and Central Asia

Our history is serious and not a game


"With respect to South Asia, our key finding is that people with ancestry like the Kushan individuals can be excluded as important sources of the Steppe pastoralist-related ancestry that is widespread in South Asia today. In particular, the East Asian-related admixture (via Steppe_LBA ancestors) that characterized the Kushan individuals is nearly absent in South Asia. We formally confirmed this inference through qpAdm modeling that excludes the Kushan individuals, as well as nearly all the other Iron Age and historical period individuals from other cultural contexts that were published in two recent studies (29, 30) as plausible sources for the Steppe pastoralist-related ancestry in South Asia (Fig S 50)."

"Though culturally and historically significant, like the Muslims, the earlier steppe people that are prominent in Indian history don’t seem to have made a major genetic impact.

The question has been answered. And that’s good."-------->Razib Khan

 

[third eye]

Many women would kill themselves in the face of such dishonour.
By the way are you Rajput?

Are you ?

..just curious

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sorry @Joe Shearer I quoted you previously but forgot to pen in my observations...Eventhough Scythians,Pahlavis,Kushanas,Huns etc played a huge role in the history of the North-West , they donot seem to come up in DNA analysis...Though steppe intrusion during the bronze age is ubiquitous in the genetic evidence...Something tells me around a million to 2 million Indo-Europeans/Aryans moved into the subcontinent in the bronze age, when the population of the entire subcontinent could not have been more than 10-15 million...This had a massive genetic impact for all ages to come ...I also surmise that this migration was a single wave....Since they could not have moved in earlier than the onset of second millenium BCE and the Rig Veda starts from either 1700 or 1500 BCE......The whole lot of Aryans must have come over in a single wave and may have lost the memory of their migration over a few hundred years or so ....

So even if some Rajput clans may descend from the Alchon Huns, some from Kidarites...and even if some Jatts may descend from the Scythians......The genetic evidence shows only the massive Steppe intrusion of the bronaze age


May be a 2 million group coming in a 15 million superset is bound to show up in the genetic register.....but 400,000 Kushanas moving in at a time when the subcontinent already hosted 50 million, cannot possibly show up


This is the relevant portion from the latest state-of-the-art study regarding the genetic history of the subcontinent. The Reich Lab of Harvard has revolutionized the history of India in the last 7-10 years.


"By the Late Bronze Age, ESHG-related admixture became ubiquitous, as documented by our time transect from Kazakhstan and ancient DNA data from the Iron Age and from later periods in Turan and the Central Steppe, including Scythians, Sarmatians, Kushans, and Huns (29, 52). Thus, these first millennium BCE to first millennium CE archaeological cultures with documented cultural and political impacts on South Asia cannot be important sources for the Steppe pastoralist–related ancestry widespread in South Asia today (because present-day South Asians have too little East Asian–related ancestry to be consistent with deriving from these groups), providing an example of how genetic data can rule out scenarios that are plausible on the basis of the archaeological and historical evidence alone (13) (fig. S52). Instead, our analysis shows that the only plausible source for the Steppe ancestry is Steppe Middle to Late Bronze Age groups, who not only fit as a source for South Asia but who we also document as having spread into Turan and mixed with BMAC-related individuals at sites in Kazakhstan in this period"

The formation of human populations in South and Central Asia

Our history is serious and not a game


"With respect to South Asia, our key finding is that people with ancestry like the Kushan individuals can be excluded as important sources of the Steppe pastoralist-related ancestry that is widespread in South Asia today. In particular, the East Asian-related admixture (via Steppe_LBA ancestors) that characterized the Kushan individuals is nearly absent in South Asia. We formally confirmed this inference through qpAdm modeling that excludes the Kushan individuals, as well as nearly all the other Iron Age and historical period individuals from other cultural contexts that were published in two recent studies (29, 30) as plausible sources for the Steppe pastoralist-related ancestry in South Asia (Fig S 50)."

"Though culturally and historically significant, like the Muslims, the earlier steppe people that are prominent in Indian history don’t seem to have made a major genetic impact.

The question has been answered. And that’s good."-------->Razib Khan

This is 'chewy' stuff. Thanks, and I will read it at leisure.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

I know I owe you a more detailed and informative answer, and promise to get back to you on those points, but just give me a little more time.

In general, Aguris are very prosperous jotedars and members, as a caste, of the Noboshakha. I am not at all confident about the connection or lack of it between Aguris and Sadgops. That is why I would like to gather my thoughts and do the necessary reading before saying anything.



That last is the village lunatic. Ignore him.

PS: Thank God, if you are theist, on your knees that you were not born a Poundriya Kshatriya!!

No, I am not theist....Gun to the head, my normative philosophy would be a mix between non-theistic Upanishadic Immanent Consciousness, Germanic Idealism, Spinoza's "Divine"....What's the deal with Poundriya Kshatriya Sir? to be frank The Kshatriya appellation loses meaning when one moves east of Bihar or south of Madhya Pradesh...That of course doesnot mean the rest of the lot didnot have their all marauding warriors...Palas,Vijaynagari Naiks,Rashtra Kutas and many more bear testimony to that fact.....But these appellations are a feature of the Brahmanism heartland....I would love your take on the relation between Vedic religion/Brahmanism and the "coterminous"(lol love that word) Bengal region....What was the religious history of pre-Buddhist Bengal?

 

[waz]

Are you ?

..just curious

Yes from dad's side, grandfather's line.

 

[Abdul Rehman Majeed]

Yes from dad's side, grandfather's line.

Somehow I always thought you were a Kashmiri.