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We don't need your advice: Muslim leader to Musharraf

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... I don't give a damn about Janes report coz I know for a fact where they come from, and they, as you say are not Independent Source and you are talking about a report 13 March 2008 which was during Gujarat Riots.

... the only animosity right now is what are you trying to say to Indian Muslims just in a similar fashion why was Mr.Musharraf talking about Indian Muslims, if a section of society is oppressed in India they have properly working Judicial System in place and you might want to check this one we had 2 Chief Justices of India who are from Muslim community and one was a Lady, 2 presidents from Muslim Community,

Kashmir is as much a part of India as any other state right now and is guided by Indian Constitution and IPC unless a referendum takes place against the same which in the current geo-political stand is not possible coz Pakistan was not able to save Swat so their is no way India would risk its people atleast as of now.

Communal riots are part of every south-asian country so look into your own backyard before saving your neighbors yard.

... try to refrain from making obscure comments without knowing the relevance of them. My simple question is WHO ARE YOU and WILL AN INDIAN MUSLIM TO LISTEN TO YOUR VOICE. The answe is no!

... so, please think about your own before you try to champion the cause of a community which is in a different country altogether. We have enough institutions and a constructive Judicial system which can advocate its own people to make sure that Indians in general without a biased approach relish the fruits of its dominant democratic principles.

.. Please stop trolling :hitwall:
 
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You need to chill I'm afraid.

You don't think that Janes is credible, well then it indicates how far gone you are. Suffice to say many of your countrymen here will disagree with your assumption about Janes being out to get India.

Furthermore, if you'd actually sum up the courage to read the little piece of article available to you above; you'd note that it is not a reference to any one event in particular but a careful study of events and trends that have affected India society over the decades. Your denial of these simple, glaring facts is regrettable indeed, since if you can't see a problem; how can you remedy it?

Kashmir is as much a part of India as any other state right now and is guided by Indian Constitution and IPC unless a referendum takes place against the same which in the current geo-political stand is not possible coz Pakistan was not able to save Swat so their is no way India would risk its people atleast as of now.

Hilarious:lol:, I don’t know what to say. Except for maybe that, as all can see, I’m not the one who’s projecting loads of false self-righteousness here. What does Swat have to do with India’s failures to uphold its commitments on Kashmir? Nothing, so now THAT technically is trolling; don’t do it again.

so, please think about your own before you try to champion the cause of a community which is in a different country altogether.

Actually I think about my countrymen a lot but that doesn’t mean that I’m not allowed to think about the state of Muslims or humanity anywhere else. Certainly many Indian members have a hard time shutting up about Pakistan’s problems in this forum, and we don’t disallow that as long as they’re on topic and keep it constructively worded. But why are you so insecure with this particular issue, that’s what I wanna know.

try to refrain from making obscure comments without knowing the relevance of them.

Well this is a Pakistani forum, so it is nearly impossible for me to troll here. You on the other hand are treading a very fine line. Refrain from emotional outbursts that have no intellectual content and prove nothing other than how insecure you are about us bursting that little bubble you live in.:disagree:
 
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Raja Kavuru and was, please check the low quality of your posts if you value your defence.pk memberships.

This is an anonymous online forum, no one can achieve credibility on the basis of what they claim to be alone. If some Indians here are pretending to be Muslims and Pakistan haters, well that doesn't make much of a point because:

1) We don't know if you are lying
2) One person (your relative, daughter-in-law, etc) doesn't matter in the large scheme of things being discussed.

Personally I'm pretty sure this Mulana guy was planted. Specifically designed to ensure Indian headlines like these, comforting the many Indians who live in a world where the sad state of Indian Muslims does not exist. But it was a pretty lowly act, though I admit I expected something like this. I would say that this guy so bluntly and aggressively bringing up this Indian Muslim argument despite Musharraf barely even touching upon it; indicates a deep-rooted insecurity in itself.

Well Mr. Kaskrin, there is no denying that there is some sort of descrimination that exists in india against muslims. Even i have come across people whom seems to have some pretty low ideas about muslims. But what i see from the various post in this forum is that, many members fail to see the good aspects of the secular india. And is tend to indulge in arriving at a blanket judgement over the status of Muslims in india. Your personal feeling of planting Mr. Maulana by whoever you thought did, just vouchs for that fact.

And with regards to insecurity point, muslims not only in india, but all over the world is feeling the sense of insecurity, and you should know the reason. So singling out indian muslims is not right.

Nobody is willing to accept the strong justice and social system we have, which readily prosecutes any kind of descrimination in the name of caste and religion. People are prejudistical in their opinion. And this comes from a couple of unfortunate incidents that happend in my country. However people fail to see the point that hindus where not only in majority in Gujarat, but in other states too, and we have muslims all over india. And this vilonce commited by some in gujarat didnt spread else where in the country. So you should understand by this how the majority thinks.
 
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Only you Hindus believe in magicians and stuff, I don't.
I do think that I know that Musharraf's intentions weren't ill and that he tried to reach out to the Muslims in India, unfortunately, someone had to score some browny points with his Hindu masters, ohwell, Madani got a fitting reply, and it shows Musharraf's professionalism.
I don't know what's on the mind of all Indian Muslims, what I do know is that they have nothing to be proud of in India, and if anyone want's to prove me otherwise, please do go ahead.
The fact is that the statement from Madani was utterly useless and that Musharraf had no ill intentions at all, it's as simple as that, and the fact that you said that Musharraf is a "nobody" shows your lack of respect, atleast he isn't a midget, and you know who i'm referring to. ;)

Hmmm....

It is pretty clear that it is only hatred coming out of your mouth.

There was no need of that poor try to insult Hindus. Have you ever read me insulting Muslims? This only shows your mentality.

Yes, it is very clear that you don't know what's on the minds of Indian Muslims. I can assure that they love being here. They are proud of being Indian. Not only that, they have active participation in nation's development. This shows that what Madani said was not hollow words.

You say there is nothing to be proud of being an Indian. Have a look at yourself. You are in Netherlands. May be, a citizen there. You are getting education there. May be, you don't plan to come back in Pakistan. You call Pakistan your homeland just because you (or your parents) was born in Pakistan.

Still, I assume from your posts, you are proud of Pakistan. I don't know even you have ever been in Pakistan or not.

Now, you can't refuse that India is in far better condition that Pakistan. So, what's the problem if Indian Muslims are proud to be Indian?

I said 'Musharraf is nobody' because he holds no position to represent Pakistan. He may be a bright future for Pakistan, but for the rest of the world, he is nobody. Atleast, until he comes back in power. These are just the facts. I don't think that political opposition of Indian Govt matters much for Pakistan. I fail to see how I insulted Musharraf.

But calling Pranab Mukerji (I got it, right?) a midget is surely insulting. Also, there is nothing to be ashamed in being a midget. Again this shows how you think.

You are assuming that Madani has 'Hindu masters' just because he talked against Pakistan. But, don't you think, others need some authorized info to believe that?
 
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WHEN DUMBS HAVE NO ANSWER THEY ACT LIKE YOU!!! like this bla bla bla ahhahah you back to school

I can certainly answer everything in that post. But, it isn't worth of it.

Good to see you assuming that I replied like this because your points were unanswerable!! Positive attitude :lol:
 
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yep, i wonder that's maybe why..... we have Kashmiris joining the INDIAN ARMY.

While Kashmiris in Azad Kashmir are joining the terrorists to claim Indian Administered Kashmir.

So why dont we find out once and for all who the kashmiris love the most by having a vote under the UN?...........wont take that chance will you:cheers:
 
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Please do some homework before posting.
Chief Justice Rana Bhagwandas
Rana Bhagwandas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A hindu as the cheif justice of pakistan.

So?
APJ Abdul Kalam -Former and the most loved President of India.

Your claim doesnt prove anything. For every Hindu/Christian you cite holding a high position in Pakistan, I can cite 10 times as many muslims holding influential positions in India. Wanna play ball?
 
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Your claim doesnt prove anything. For every Hindu/Christian you cite holding a high position in Pakistan, I can cite 10 times as many muslims holding influential positions in India. Wanna play ball?

Yes but you have ten times the number of kids and maybe even five times the number of population compared to us strange isn't it? Infact you claim that your country is a very secular one then why do its people use such terms in the first place and despite all the secularism why is it that Mahabharat is still taught in the primary school system why despite the secular views the governement still doesn't allow Zoroastrionism to grow if you to think one rhetoric comment is good enough to show that all of India's Muslim community is satisfied with its government then god help you.
 
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if you to think one rhetoric comment is good enough to show that all of India's Muslim community is satisfied with its government then god help you.

We are not damn bothered about whether muslim community is satisfied with the govt or not rather oif the whole society is.
 
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Yes but you have ten times the number of kids and maybe even five times the number of population compared to us strange isn't it? Infact you claim that your country is a very secular one then why do its people use such terms in the first place and despite all the secularism why is it that Mahabharat is still taught in the primary school system why despite the secular views the governement still doesn't allow Zoroastrionism to grow if you to think one rhetoric comment is good enough to show that all of India's Muslim community is satisfied with its government then god help you.

There are no "religious" schools in India except Madarsas. Why? Because only a Central Board/ State Boards degrees are valid for getting a job in India. And 10 other countries including Saudi Arabia, UAE and other Arab countries have schools following the Indian Central Board for Secondary education. And why is that? Because it is one of the only few boards of education recognised globally as it appeals beyond religion.

Having studied in a CBSE school I can tell you, neither Mahabharat nor Ramayan nor Quran nor the Bible are taught. Unlike in Pakistan were "Islamiyat" is a compulsary subject. Why? Because everyone in India believes religion is a belief and not a rule. In India, one is free to follow any religion practise any alien belief as far as it is communally peaceful annd you donot go about forcing your way on others, then it is termed illegal.

And there you have it, a glimpse of Incredible India.
 
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:lol:
Yes but you have ten times the number of kids and maybe even five times the number of population compared to us strange isn't it? Infact you claim that your country is a very secular one then why do its people use such terms in the first place and despite all the secularism why is it that Mahabharat is still taught in the primary school system why despite the secular views the governement still doesn't allow Zoroastrionism to grow if you to think one rhetoric comment is good enough to show that all of India's Muslim community is satisfied with its government then god help you.

MAN U KNOW MORE ABOUT OUR PIRMARY SCHOOLS THAN US? WHO TOLD U MAHABHARATA IS THOUGHT IN OUR PRIMARY SCHOOL??? IF ITS RITE I MUST HAVE DEFINATELY FAILED IN THAT SUBJECT ...:lol: ... COZ I DON REMEMBER ANTHING RELATED TO MAHABHARATA THOUGHT IN OUR SCHOOLS:rofl:
 
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So?
APJ Abdul Kalam -Former and the most loved President of India.

So.....what has that got to do with point you raised "I dont know what leverage Pakistan has when it is concerned about minorities in India when frankly there is no hindu or Christian voice in Pakistan."
Your point was that the hindus had no voice in pakistan and you have been proved wrong.......swallow it.

Your claim doesnt prove anything. For every Hindu/Christian you cite holding a high position in Pakistan, I can cite 10 times as many muslims holding influential positions in India. ?

Did i say muslims held no postions in the indian govt?.......no i did not!!!
Unlike yourself who has been brainwashed into thinking that all pakistani hate hindus.I am not so shallow as to think no muslims hold govt postions in india.
Wanna play ball
You tried and failed.
 
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There are no "religious" schools in India except Madarsas. Why? Because only a Central Board/ State Boards degrees are valid for getting a job in India. And 10 other countries including Saudi Arabia, UAE and other Arab countries have schools following the Indian Central Board for Secondary education. And why is that? Because it is one of the only few boards of education recognised globally as it appeals beyond religion.

Having studied in a CBSE school I can tell you, neither Mahabharat nor Ramayan nor Quran nor the Bible are taught. Unlike in Pakistan were "Islamiyat" is a compulsary subject. Why? Because everyone in India believes religion is a belief and not a rule. In India, one is free to follow any religion practise any alien belief as far as it is communally peaceful annd you donot go about forcing your way on others, then it is termed illegal.

And there you have it, a glimpse of Incredible India.

The textbook revisions between 2001 and 2004 are one of the least covered; yet one of the most controversial legacies of the previous Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) led National Democratic Alliance (NDA) government. The nationalist agenda of the BJP institutionalised a radical re-articulation of Indian identity, with moves to de-secularise the Indian education system in an attempt to strengthen the party’s future voter base. However, the barometer of success that defined the BJP’s education policies was neither the introduction of new textbooks, nor the emergence of Rashrtiya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) activists at the helm of national education institutions. It has been the apparent acceptance of the discriminatory narrative by the Indian public, many of who grew up with Nehru’s secular ideals of constructing an inclusive Indian national identity.
the BJP led the NDA government, more than any other, recognised that education policy was an effective means to establish political sustenance and spread its nationalist ideology. After assuming power they replaced key staff in education departments, changed the curriculum and introduced new textbooks. The ostensible aim was that by educating the next generation within their chosen ideology, Hindutva (Hinduness) thought would become the norm.

In an interview, the influential former Minister for Human Resource Development, Science and Technology, Dr M.M. Joshi explained that the changes were made following complaints from minorities who felt aggrieved by the events were depicted in the old textbooks, in addition to not-so-veiled attack on the left.

“We examined them and the National Council for Education Research and Training (NCERT) made a decision to delete them…. Certain authors of history have tried to distort history. They have given it a purely leftist colour. They say that India had no history of its own because they are guided by Marx. They teach the history of a nation that was mainly defeated and conquered by foreign powers. It’s a travesty of facts and an attempt to kill the morale of a nation.”
Hindutva ideologues contend that the aim of teaching history is to create a healthy nation and that critical historians can harm the positive image of Hindus and Hinduism that children ought to learn about. For the Hindutva historian, revisiting history is not simply about differentiating the other, but finding the ‘self’ – i.e. the Hindu nation that has been downtrodden for so long. This process of awakening is associated with the new pride.

Under the BJP’s logic of majoritarianism, the Indian nation was re-conceptualised as Hindu. The main argument espoused by the government, was that previously, the Hindu majority had suffered as the role of minorities had been unduly emphasised. The BJP hoped to ‘rectify’ the situation by endowing the Hindu populace its rightful place, starting with the school textbooks. Indian history was reprioritised and even changed to highlight continuous strife between Hindus and non-Hindus, with non-Hindu communities identified as foreigners and often as enemies of the nation.
The BJP's Textbook Revisions: What lasting legacy for society? | Opinion Asia


The New York Times, Opinion, December 30, 2002
Hijacking India's History

By KAI FRIESE

NEW DELHI
While some of us lament the repetition of history, the men who run India are busy rewriting it. Their efforts, regrettably, will only be bolstered by the landslide victory earlier this month of the Bharatiya Janata Party in the Western India state of Gujarat.

The B.J.P. has led this country's coalition government since 1999. But India's Hindu nationalists have long had a quarrel with history. They are unhappy with the notion that the most ancient texts of Hinduism are associated with the arrival of the Vedic "Aryan" peoples from the Northwest. They don't like the dates of 1500 to 1000 B.C. ascribed by historians to the advent of the Vedic peoples, the forebears of Hinduism, or the idea that the Indus Valley civilization predates Vedic civilization. And they certainly can't stand the implication that Hinduism, like the other religious traditions of India, evolved through a mingling of cultures and peoples from different lands.

Last month the National Council of Educational Research and Training, the central government body that sets the national curriculum and oversees education for students up to the 12th grade, released the first of its new school textbooks for social sciences and history. Teachers and academics protested loudly. The schoolbooks are notable for their elision of many awkward facts, like the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi by a Hindu nationalist in 1948.

The authors of the textbook have promised to make revisions to the chapter about Gandhi. But what is more remarkable is how they have added several novel chapters to Indian history.

Thus we have a new civilization, the "Indus-Saraswati civilization" in place of the well-known Indus Valley civilization, which is generally agreed to have appeared around 4600 B.C. and to have lasted for about 2,000 years. (The all-important addition of "Saraswati," an ancient river central to Hindu myth, is meant to show that Indus Valley civilization was actually part of Vedic civilization.) We have a chapter on "Vedic civilization" — the earliest recognizable "Hindu culture" in India and generally acknowledged not to have appeared before about 1700 B.C. — that appears without a single date.

The council has also promised to test the "S.Q.," or "Spiritual Quotient," of gifted students in addition to their I.Q. Details of this plan are not elaborated upon; the council's National Curriculum Framework for School Education says only that "a suitable mechanism for locating the talented and the gifted will have to be devised."

More recent history, of course, is not covered in school textbooks. So we will have to wait to see how such books might treat this month's elections in Gujarat. They were held in the wake of the brutal pogrom of last February and March, in which more than 1,000 Muslims were murdered and at least 100,000 more lost their homes and property. The chief minister of Gujarat, who is among the leading lights of the B.J.P., justified this atrocity as a "natural reaction" to an act of arson on a train in the Gujarati town of Godhra, in which 59 Hindu pilgrims lost their lives.

The ruling party's subsequent election campaign was conducted against the rather literal backdrop of the Godhra incident: painted billboards of the burning railway carriage. The murdered Muslims were not accorded the same tragic status, although their pleas for justice created a backlash that played neatly into the campaign theme of Hindu Pride. It was, of course, a great success.

The carefully nurtured sense of Hindu grievance has been nursed rather than sated by acts of mob violence: the destruction of the 15th-century mosque in Ayodhya, for instance, or the persecution of Christians in earlier pogroms in Gujarat's Dangs district. The B.J.P., along with its Hindu-supremacist cohorts, the R.S.S. (Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh) and the V.H.P. (Vishwa Hindu Parishad), has a seemingly irresistible will to power. (The R.S.S. and the V.H.P. are not political parties but "social service organizations" that have served as springboards to power for B.J.P. leaders like Narendra Modi, chief minister of Gujarat.)

In vanguard states like Gujarat, thousands of students follow the uncompromisingly chauvinistic R.S.S. textbooks. They will learn that "Aryan culture is the nucleus of Indian culture, and the Aryans were an indigenous race . . . and creators of the Vedas" and that "India itself was the original home of the Aryans." They will learn that Indian Christians and Muslims are "foreigners."

But they still have much to learn. I once visited the bookshop at the R.S.S. headquarters in Nagpur. On sale were books that show humankind originated in the upper reaches of that mythical Indian river, the Saraswati, and pamphlets that explain the mysterious Indus Valley seals, with their indecipherable Harrapan script: they are of Vedic origin.

After I visited the bookshop I stopped to talk to a group of young boys who live together in an R.S.S. hostel. They were a sweet bunch of kids, between 8 and 11 years old. They all wanted to grow up to be either doctors or pilots. Very good, I said. And what did they learn in school? Did they learn about religion? About Hinduism, Christianity?

They were silent for a few seconds — until their teacher nodded. A bespectacled kid spoke up. "Christians burst into houses and make converts of Hindus by bribing them or beating them."

He said it without malice, just a breathless eagerness, as if it were something he had learned in social science class. Perhaps it was.

Kai Friese is a journalist and magazine editor in New Delhi.



Asia Times, October 30, 1999
COMMENT: Rewriting history with a Hindu message

By Praful Bidwai

NEW DELHI - Barely two weeks after being sworn in as part of India's new coalition government, Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee's Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) has begun to unfold its Hindu sectarian agenda. Changes are being made in education and pressure is increasing upon other religious groups.

Education Minister Murli Manohar Joshi, a Hindu hardliner, is restructuring educational institutions, rewriting curricula and making major personnel changes.

His latest target is Marxism in political science courses in schools. The education board has dropped Marxism from the curriculum without explanation, leaving only Fascism, Liberalism, Gandhism and Socialism. Many in the BJP are admirers of Fascism and doctrines of ''racial purity''. The change appears to dismiss a major influence on Indian independence movements and the formation of a national intelligentsia.

The BJP is also committed - and Minister Joshi has reiterated this - to rewriting school textbooks so that they reflect the ''glory and greatness'' of ancient Hindu civilization and present Hindus as victims of repeated invasion by outsiders. The BJP and other Hindu fundamentalist organizations like Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) have made unsupported claims about Indian achievements - from calculus to nuclear physics and from advanced chemistry to aeronautics.

Says distinguished historian Sumit Sarkar: ''The basic thrust of the BJP is to construct an enemy. Rhetorically, they might have succeeded in achieving this, but it also needs to be concretized. For this, rewriting history, especially school textbooks, becomes very important. The BJP's main fight is more with history than with political parties.''

To accomplish this mission, which has been called the BJP's ''Long March Through the Institutions'', Joshi has filled educational institutions with BJP or RSS sympathizers and activists. These include the University Grants Commission, the secondary school board, the Indian Institute of Advanced Study, and the councils of social sciences and historical research, which run virtually all of India's specialized social science research institutes outside the university system.

Although the BJP might wish to appear to be a relatively ''moderate'' party, its agenda is complex, as reflected in the vitriolic campaign launched by the BJP's affiliates against Pope John Paul II who is due to visit India early next month.

The VHP and RSS are demanding an apology from the Catholic Church for having ''forcibly converted'' a large number of Hindus to Christianity during the colonial period despite little historical evidence of such an event. Many Indian Christians, especially in the south, willingly converted to escape the humiliation of the Hindu caste hierarchy. Other, non-Catholic, Christians trace their churches back to the first century, before Europe was Christian.

Although the VHP and RSS have attacked church properties and personnel and maligned other faiths, Prime Minister Vajpayee has not uttered a word against the anti-Christian campaign. Nor has the government once invoked the principle of secularism, which is part of the unalterable structure of India's Constitution.

(Inter Press Service)

WHATS GOONA HAPPEN WHEN THE BJP COME BACK IN POWER.......CAN YOU GUARANTEE THAT THEY WILL NOT CHANGE THE SCHOOLTEXT BACK TO PROMOTE HINDU FANATICISM AGAIN?

And there you have it, a glimpse of Incredible India.
 
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