We Can Use Strike Drones in J&K If People Will Accept Collateral Damage: Army Chief

[PakSarzameen5823]

Oh bravo, here let me rain claps coz PA got a territory that wasn't defended in the first place.

Excuses won't save you, we occupy the most important peak in Kargil. Not you. We gained an important piece of land, and you lost it.

and the world community intervened before we could.

LOL that's literally the reverse of what happened. The international community had to intervene to save YOUR hide, not ours. Your darling military couldn't evict us on it's own.

Your lot learnt nothing, like in every other war that pak has initiated, you lot failed to achieve your primary objectives

No, in the first war we took a large portion of Kashmir away from you, in the 2nd one (which we didn't even start, and no, Operation Gibraltar doesn't count since the war started afterwards) we crushed your invasion with ease in little over two weeks, and in Kargil we took it's most strategic peak away from you.

All you did was waste your time in 1971 and the Siachen, the latter of which is a strategically unimportant region, and the former of which gave you more harm than benefit (e.g now you have numerous Bangladeshi illegals entering your country illegally, Pakistan only went nuclear in response to 1971, you gave back almost all the land you took, you lost Chamb sector, Onka harbour was destroyed, the IAF lost more aircraft, and you suffered thousands of casualties).

a major chunk of your population

As much as I hate to say it, we viewed our eastern branch the same way the British viewed India in colonial times, i.e as a colony to be ruled over and extract resources from. There's a reason Urdu is our national language rather than Bengali, and why we love Jinnah, Iqbal, Rehmat Ali and Ahmed Khan but rarely mention any Bengalis who tried to hop on the Muslim League train.

changed your name forever

No, we're still called Pakistan.

And if you want to talk about name changing, let's just leave it at the fact that your country is named after a river that predominantly flows in Pakistan.

 

[Anik101]

In simple words rawat monkey is accepting his forces are losing ground in kashmir day by day.. And now he want govt permission to use drones in no go areas...

There is nothing as no go areas in Kashmir. There are hardly 200-250 millitants operating in Kashmir, used to be around 10000 during early 90's when Army was not deployed for CI ops.Yes there were no go zones in 90's and early 2000's such as hill kaka but as of now 250 millitants can hardly hold an area for it to be a no go zone.

 

[PakSarzameen5823]

Even the most ruthless saffronists don't want to wipe out the Muslims

From what I've seen, a lot of them do. They just differ on how they want to get rid of Muslims (i.e try to convert them, deport them, kill them or a mix of all three).

Salty about Muslim rule? People don't even talk about it in daily life here.

Just about any video about the Muslim rule over India gets flooded by angry Indian nationalists. Not only that, but your country's leadership still tries to change places with Muslim names to Vedic ones, as well as destroy Muslim heritage throughout India (e.g Babri Masjid).

I will agree with you that the Hindus and the rest of us are here who do really not like your kind. Even Jews don't like Nazis even today after 75 years, don't they?

This is the underlying problem. Islamaphobia is a serious issue in India, so much so that you actually feel comfortable comparing Muslims to Nazis.

You glorify foreign invaders. We resent them.

Obviously we'd glorify them. Not only is Pakistan the successor state to the Muslim empires of the region, but many of us are also related to/descended from them. Much of the workforce of these invaders as well as their major cities also came from what is now Pakistan. Even our culture is pretty similar to theirs.

Also, your quote highlights yet another problem. You view all the Muslim rulers as foreign when many of them (e.g Sikander Budshikan, Akbar, Alamgir, Ghiyassudin Tughlaq, Jam Nizamuddin, Mir Chakar Rind, Hyder Ali, Tipu Sultan, Ali Sher Khan Anchan, etc) were indigenous to the region.

You see, my part of the country was never exactly conquered by Muslims

I'm fairly certain it was.

We still occupy highest feature in the region i.e the tiger hill. Also we can direct effective artillery fire from pt.5245 which was proven in 2002 standoff.

From the horse's mouth:

Lt. Col. Kuldip Singh Ludra states, "it dominates, by observation and fire, the complete area on both side of the Line of Control."

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0VJwAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y

https://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20020828/nation.htm#3

https://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040713/edit.htm

https://www.thehindu.com/2002/08/28/stories/2002082804871100.htm

BTW how did you conclude that Pakistan still occupies 20% of Kargil.

Not "still", we did before we decided to retreat due to the political landscape at that time.

 

[Mrc]

Even in kargil mighty indian airforce did not cross LOC all the glorified bombing was on own side

Now irbis being portrayed as biggest victiry in human hustory

 

[Anik101]

From what I've seen, a lot of them do. They just differ on how they want to get rid of Muslims (i.e try to convert them, deport them, kill them or a mix of all three).



Just about any video about the Muslim rule over India gets flooded by angry Indian nationalists. Not only that, but your country's leadership still tries to change places with Muslim names to Vedic ones, as well as destroy Muslim heritage throughout India (e.g Babri Masjid).



This is the underlying problem. Islamaphobia is a serious issue in India, so much so that you actually feel comfortable comparing Muslims to Nazis.



Obviously we'd glorify them. Not only is Pakistan the successor state to the Muslim empires of the region, but many of us are also related to/descended from them. Much of the workforce of these invaders as well as their major cities also came from what is now Pakistan. Even our culture is pretty similar to theirs.

Also, your quote highlights yet another problem. You view all the Muslim rulers as foreign when many of them (e.g Sikander Budshikan, Akbar, Alamgir, Ghiyassudin Tughlaq, Jam Nizamuddin, Mir Chakar Rind, Hyder Ali, Tipu Sultan, Ali Sher Khan Anchan, etc) were indigenous to the region.



I'm fairly certain it was.



From the horse's mouth:

Lt. Col. Kuldip Singh Ludra states, "it dominates, by observation and fire, the complete area on both side of the Line of Control."

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0VJwAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y

https://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20020828/nation.htm#3

https://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040713/edit.htm

https://www.thehindu.com/2002/08/28/stories/2002082804871100.htm



Not "still", we did before we decided to retreat due to the political landscape at that time.

During 2002 standoff India had bombarded Pakistani posts on pt.5353 using artillery guns. Later Pakistan opened fire on Indian posts but they were not that effective as all Pakistani artillery observation posts in the region were effectively engaged and destroyed by Indian artillery fire which was directed by Indian troops at pt.5245. It depends on who takes the initiative and fires first. Pt.5353 is located at altitude higher than nearby features and will be something to worry of for Indian Army. This is where IAF's role will come into play

 

[Riz]

There is nothing as no go areas in Kashmir. There are hardly 200-250 millitants operating in Kashmir, used to be around 10000 during early 90's when Army was not deployed for CI ops.Yes there were no go zones in 90's and early 2000's such as hill kaka but as of now 250 millitants can hardly hold an area for it to be a no go zone.

Lol.. And which country on the earth is using drones in the areas within the reach of its ground forces? USA using drones in Somalia, yaman, syria, iraq where they don't have ground forces nearby those areas.. In Afghanistan they are using drones where talibans have strong foothold.. In the past they used drones in waziristan wana inside Pakistan.. We are dead sure indian forces are losing ground and the freedom struggle of kashmiries entered in advance stage.. Every day hundreds of kashmire youth joining freedom struggle, very tough time ahead for rawat and boys..

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Only thing we remember is IAF operating with utmost impunity while a certain airforce did not even have the stones to engage the IAF as they were firebombing the soldiers of the country of the said airforce.

IAF "impunity" only was restricted to the air space it controlled. Kargil war narrative was that it was some Mujaheedeen who were fighting the Indian army. Ofcourse PAF cannot operate over Indian controlled airspace in support of the "Mujaheedeen". Yes the narrative was wrong which restricted how far PAF can go, but not the capability. IAF two jets who breached slightly into Pakistani airspace meet their fate swiftly.

 

[Anik101]

We are dead sure indian forces are losing ground and the freedom struggle of kashmiries entered in advance stage....

We never said that we will be using Drones on Kashmir. Our government has a policy of not using air power in CI operations.

Every day hundreds of kashmire youth joining freedom struggle, very tough time ahead for rawat and boys..

We dealt with 10000 millitants in 90's. Have killed 21000 in last 30 years. 250 millitants can hardly give a tough time to Indian security agencies.

 

[MimophantSlayer]

Excuses won't save you, we occupy the most important peak in Kargil. Not you. We gained an important piece of land, and you lost it.

Again, you have it coz we never fought for it.
Whereas we took back every other important point from you when you occupied it and not like PA which held positions when no one was there.

LOL that's literally the reverse of what happened. The international community had to intervene to save YOUR hide, not ours. Your darling military couldn't evict us on it's own.

I understand that the pakistani revisionist history teaches you otherwise but no that's not true.
Facts trounce your hearsay.

Bruce Reidel White House aide during Kargil.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1989886.stm
From the horse's mouth.

No, in the first war we took a large portion of Kashmir away from you, in the 2nd one (which we didn't even start, and no, Operation Gibraltar doesn't count since the war started afterwards) we crushed your invasion with ease in little over two weeks, and in Kargil we took it's most strategic peak away from you.

In 47, by using non state militants and when IA wasn't even present in Kashmir as it is now.
Literally, almost every time pak has gotten territory when IA wasn't there like in 47 and in kargil.

Yes op Gibraltar(a failure) counts as a preclude to the war. Stop making excuses.
Gibraltar did not occur in a vacuum and nor did the conflicts succeeding it. The conflicts were happening in a periods of days and months so yes it was part of the 65 war, just like Op Chengiz khan in 71.
Also, do stop pretending like we were the agressors and you were the victims, pakistan sought to change the status quo and wanted to take Kashmir but by the end of war was rightly punished, as we were far inside pakistan and held more territory than you did ours. Yet another war initiated by pakistan where it failed to achieve its objective.
We also demolished pak tanks in the largest tank battle after WW2 i.e. Asal Uttar.

All you did was waste your time in 1971 and the Siachen, the latter of which is a strategically unimportant region, and the former of which gave you more harm than benefit (e.g now you have numerous Bangladeshi illegals entering your country illegally, Pakistan only went nuclear in response to 1971, you gave back almost all the land you took, you lost Chamb sector, Onka harbour was destroyed, the IAF lost more aircraft, and you suffered thousands of casualties).

Well if devastating pakistan's premier port Karachi and causing billions worth of damage and finally establishing a naval blockade, destroying the economy and population of pak, gaining more territory by the end of the war and parting pak with a major chunk of its territory that would have produced great economic benefits is a waste of time, then I wish we keep wasting our time.

Look at Bangladesh's growth rate, it is growing faster than pakistan and will overtake your economy in 2020-2021.
The illegals' deportations are well underway and again, if Bangladesh keeps progressing like so we eventually won't need to.

As for Siachen.
If it is so unimportant then why are your soldiers still serving there?
Why let your soldiers fall prey to uncommon avalanches?

As much as I hate to say it, we viewed our eastern branch the same way the British viewed India in colonial times, i.e as a colony to be ruled over and extract resources from. There's a reason Urdu is our national language rather than Bengali, and why we love Jinnah, Iqbal, Rehmat Ali and Ahmed Khan but rarely mention any Bengalis who tried to hop on the Muslim League train.

Hate? Some pakistanis require a much needed self reflection.
Maybe you lot always thought of Bangladesh as such which is why they fought back against pakistani tyranny.
As much as you would like to diminish the importance of losing East pakistan, a simple glance at how successful Bangladesh has become today should automatically quash such rhetoric.

No, we're still called Pakistan.

Exactly.

And if you want to talk about name changing, let's just leave it at the fact that your country is named after a river that predominantly flows in Pakistan.

Red herring. I don't see how that's relevant.

But since you brought it up.
We could easily choke pakistan through the said river.

IAF "impunity" only was restricted to the air space it controlled. Kargil war narrative was that it was some Mujaheedeen who were fighting the Indian army. Ofcourse PAF cannot operate over Indian controlled airspace in support of the "Mujaheedeen". Yes the narrative was wrong which restricted how far PAF can go, but not the capability. IAF two jets who breached slightly into Pakistani airspace meet their fate swiftly.

What a load of crock.

As per 3 star Lt Gen Shahid Azis who was DG of pak AW ISI during Kargil war.
"There were no mujahideen, only taped wireless messages, which fooled no one."
https://web.archive.org/web/2013111...Jan-2013/putting-our-children-in-line-of-fire

But let's give you the benefit of the doubt, let's say that they were mujahideens. So what?
They were still pakistanis, PAF would sit back while one section of the military were failing after launching an attack, just to save face? More pertinent questions like an eventual Indian counter attack never came to them? Yeah right.

 

[Lincoln]

We never said that we will be using Drones on Kashmir. Our government has a policy of not using air power in CI operations.

We dealt with 10000 millitants in 90's. Have killed 21000 in last 30 years. 250 millitants can hardly give a tough time to Indian security agencies.

Oh really, just 250 militants, then why the deployment of over 250000 soldiers, not even along the border, but just for the cities? 1:1000 ratio? Check the numbers, your words carry no weight.

Then they say that it is Pakistan Defence that is living in fantasy. Talking about cross LOC drone strikes, literally the most heavily guarded border, what on earth makes them think they have the ability to perform such strikes.

 

[Tshering22]

From what I've seen, a lot of them do. They just differ on how they want to get rid of Muslims (i.e try to convert them, deport them, kill them or a mix of all three).

Revert them. How is that destroying them?

These are public ceremonies with no weapons or local goonery involved. Arya Samaj (the main 'conversion' branch) is one of the most pacifist sects of Hindus (even more than us Buddhists) holds something called 'havan' ceremony for those who want to revert.

The problem is this; most of these converts usually suffer from the same "casteism" which they were convinced would be eliminated once they became muslims a few centuries or decades back. I don't know much about your castes but I have heard of groups such as Syeds, Ashrafs etc. who hold 'senior' roles similar to brahmins. Now the muslims of many poor and underdeveloped areas of India may have converted by retain this hierarchical structure.

In UP and MP's less developed areas, this is what happens. So once they revert, there is absolutely no caste. The reverted folks don't get any 'caste' designation (their ancestors could have been some caste, but the new ones don't).

You need to understand something; if people convert to Islam, they also leave Islam. Just because your religion bans someone to do it, doesn't mean people don't.

I would hardly count that as extermination.

There are many who don't revert to Hinduism and just become atheists or agnostics.

Just about any video about the Muslim rule over India gets flooded by angry Indian nationalists. Not only that, but your country's leadership still tries to change places with Muslim names to Vedic ones, as well as destroy Muslim heritage throughout India (e.g Babri Masjid).

• If you talk to the Jews about Nazis; would they welcome it or would they show their irritation? The same thing happens when you talk about Muslim rule to the Hindus or even other communities. Muslims were not kind here and that is something which cannot be hidden.
• Islam here wasn't like Kublai Khan's conversion in central Asia where one leader adopted it out of mere explanation and everyone followed; there was a brutal and bloody history of dislike between foreign groups of Muslims and local Hindus, Jains, Buddhists, Sikhs etc.
• So naturally a dislike remains; but people don't just keep talking about it and most of the time, political discussions go nothing beyond India-Pakistan wars and maximum jihadi terrorist attacks. No one, except politicians discuss these things in general.

Now coming to the 'renaming part'.

FYI Muslim names were enforced on already Vedic names.

Sure there is a political angle to it; but they are simply being restored back to their real names.

Just because politicians earlier were not considerate to revert them to their old names doesn't mean someone shouldn't do it now. Allahabad was Prayag for centuries before Islam or even Christianity existed; Faizabad was Ayodhya for centuries before Islam, Christianity or Judaism existed.

Babri Masjid has already been excavated by Archaeological Survey of India headed by a Muslim man known as Mr KK Mohammed who in his book has with pictures, shown the evidence of a temple below the mosque. Read about it.

Forced destruction of holy sites is not Muslim heritage; surely you would agree since you say that Islam is peaceful and people misinterpret it.

How is asking for what was there before, with evidence, destruction of Muslim heritage? Muslim heritage was built on destroyed Hindu and Buddhist heritage sites. Isn't that wrong?

Imagine if some Amazonians came and destroyed the Kaaba and built their own holy shrine on top of that then claim Amazonian heritage 4 centuries later; how would you feel? Would you not be angry?

 

[Lincoln]

Again, you have it coz we never fought for it.
Whereas we took back every other important point from you when you occupied it and not like PA which held positions when no one was there.

I understand that the pakistani revisionist history teaches you otherwise but no that's not true.
Facts trounce your hearsay.

In 47, by using non state militants and when IA wasn't even present in Kashmir as it is now.
Literally, almost every time pak has gotten territory when IA wasn't there like in 47 and in kargil.

Yes op Gibraltar(a failure) counts as a preclude to the war. Stop making excuses.
Gibraltar did not occur in a vacuum and nor did the conflicts succeeding it. The conflicts were happening in a periods of days and months so yes it was part of the 65 war, just like Op Chengiz khan in 71.
Also, do stop pretending like we were the agressors and you were the victims, pakistan sought to change the status quo and wanted to take Kashmir but by the end of war was rightly punished, as we were far inside pakistan and held more territory than you did ours. Yet another war initiated by pakistan where it failed to achieve its objective.
We also demolished pak tanks in the largest tank battle after WW2 i.e. Asal Uttar.



Well if devastating pakistan's premier port Karachi and causing billions worth of damage and finally establishing a naval blockade, destroying the economy and population of pak, gaining more territory by the end of the war and parting pak with a major chunk of its territory that would have produced great economic benefits is a waste of time, then I wish we keep wasting our time.

Look at Bangladesh's growth rate, it is growing faster than pakistan and will overtake your economy in 2020-2021.
The illegals' deportations are well underway and again, if Bangladesh keeps progressing like so we eventually won't need to.

As for Siachen.
If it is so unimportant then why are your soldiers still serving there?
Why let your soldiers fall prey to uncommon avalanches?



Hate? Some pakistanis require a much needed self reflection.
Maybe you lot always thought of Bangladesh as such which is why they fought back against pakistani tyranny.
As much as you would like to diminish the importance of losing East pakistan, a simple glance at how successful Bangladesh has become today should automatically quash such rhetoric.



Exactly.



Red herring. I don't see how that's relevant.

But since you brought it up.
We could easily choke pakistan through the said river.



What a load of crock.

As per 3 star Lt Gen Shahid Azis who was DG of pak AW ISI during Kargil war.
"There were no mujahideen, only taped wireless messages, which fooled no one."
https://web.archive.org/web/2013111...Jan-2013/putting-our-children-in-line-of-fire

But let's give you the benefit of the doubt, let's say that they were mujahideens. So what?
They were still pakistanis, PAF would sit back while one section of the military were failing after launching an attack, just to save face? More pertinent questions like an eventual Indian counter attack never came to them? Yeah right.

1. Keep living in LaLa land where you believe that the IA holds every important strategic point while PA holds empty useless ground, such a baseless and retarded statement, do you even know the names of these places to begin with?

2. Facts in history? Bullshit, the biggest bullshit people come up with is that we have hardcore facts about wars in the 20th and 21st century. You know how the phrase goes, something along that the winner gets to write the history. Sorry, but its a historic war in which there was destruction, confusion and no invigilation. The only writers would be of the two other sides, and any other countries who wish to favor one. Wikipedia is full of only sources from Indian or American books.

3. Would like to see your military to take head on first in a conventional war and see how much territory they can get, probably will end up having another dream of drinking tea in Lahore be destroyed.

4. Why did your Chief then insisted to the PM of India during 65' that they can't hold for long. Why was it your country that went for the ceasefire first? Why did the ceasefire agreement favor neither country if India has such a clear and superior position? The real facts here are these, not some lousy useless extraction from another Indian or American book.

5. There's a pretty famous shot of an Australian Newspaper and multiple other sources clearly saying Pakistan won that tank battle in 65'.

6. 1971 War was lost, to factors more than Defence capability. What's new?

7. Bangladesh is growing faster? Good for them. They can become as prosperous as Dubai for all we care, we still wont ever give its pre independence status as East Pakistan any importance. If you did your research, you would know what were the consequences of this and how it was a blessing in disguise. Bangladesh became the very reason Pakistan initiated the Nuclear Program and the very reason that Pakistani scientists from aboard came back to help. You forget history and real historical facts too easily though, India which was at its worst economically during 1990's, but recovered. You highly underestimate Pakistan's potential to do the same, and you don't even consider the factors for the weak and slow growing economy in the 21st century, something something War on Terror.
TLDR: We still don't care about Bangladesh, they became an Indian satellite state, we still haven't.

8. ' We could easily choke Pakistan through said river ', and you can also easily launch drone strikes in Pakistan across LOC.

9. It's funny how you think it is load of croak, there is no record of IAF performing any ops inside Pakistani territory during Kargil, and it is a well known fact that the PAF did deploy but remained within territory.

Why? Here's some lesser known facts. Musharuf had not taken the Government, PAF, Navy and even other generals into confidence, this led to differences and PAF did not assist the fighters in Kargil but rather kept a defence stance.

Here's an advice, stop living in Lala land.

 

[Tshering22]

This is the underlying problem. Islamaphobia is a serious issue in India, so much so that you actually feel comfortable comparing Muslims to Nazis.

Islamophobia started because of the action of Muslims against other communities. Sure there are radical elements on both sides and for their own personal gains; but surely you don't deny that Muslims invaded and created their place here. Invasions aren't peaceful if you know the meaning of the word.

The reason of comparing Nazis with the Muslims of that era is that both of them killed lakhs of people... whether it was the Jews in the 30s or the Sikhs, Hindus and Buddhists in medieval times, there were lots of killings and that too in our own territory.

Naturally, you won't appreciate if someone keep playing the victims despite having done over 8 centuries of brutality against you.

The same is the case.

This is not the medieval era; this is 21st century and Muslims must take the initiative to reform their community.

No community is free from negatives; Christianity reformed, Judaism reformed, even Hindus reformed over time thanks to the efforts of Swami Dayanand, Raja Rammohan Roy and many other social leaders.

You as a community need to introspect why countries ranging from Angola in Africa to Philippines, to Russia, to Germany, to India, to Israel, to France, Spain, etc have this same 'phobia' against your community as a whole.

 

[American Pakistani]

No wonder he is the commander of 7 lakh Indian occupier terrorists.

Terrorizing kashmiri civilians since 1947.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

What a load of crock.

As per 3 star Lt Gen Shahid Azis who was DG of pak AW ISI during Kargil war.
"There were no mujahideen, only taped wireless messages, which fooled no one."
https://web.archive.org/web/2013111...Jan-2013/putting-our-children-in-line-of-fire

But let's give you the benefit of the doubt, let's say that they were mujahideens. So what?
They were still pakistanis, PAF would sit back while one section of the military were failing after launching an attack, just to save face? More pertinent questions like an eventual Indian counter attack never came to them? Yeah right.

What a little of rat-Indian shite!

Pisshead, UNDERSTAND, what I wrote first and foremost.

Our narrative that some Mujahedeen were fighting in Kargil, that we sold to the world, was wrong. That limited the PAF scope of involvement in that conflict. PAF cannot operate over hostile airspace to give cover to non state actors and go on smashy smashy taking out Indian Airforce. HOWEVER, when IAF jets intruded a bit, they were taken out ruthlessly.