We are in a mess, I can't spell it out: Manohar Parrikar

[Screambowl]

True. I remember the Lithium ion battery project in KGP was a fiasco. But, you know what, such fiascos happen even in top US universities too. And frankly 25 lacs is still laughably small. A medium sized US NSF grant is in the ballpark of half a million dollars, which is almost 3 crores in Indian rupees. Such grants are negligibly rare.

i was there in IITM for one semester, and we were designing some ADC of just 8bit, 20kHz for some xyz company.

 

[sancho]

There are 2 things to it, 1) Govt's will to make India self reliant in defence production

What do you mean by that? You can only produce something, when you have developed it. What's the point if the industry know how to "produce" a 10t helicopter, when it can't develope one in India? We already can "produce" heavy class fighters in India, but struggle to develop a light class fighter.

But the Make India campaign is for domestic consumption (boost the image of Govt) basically,

No it's not! The intention of the buy and make (Indian) policy of the former government, that is the base for the Make in India agenda of the NDA is making India to a production hub, no matter on who the customer for there products are. The NDA government even specifically says, that the aim is, to produce parts in India, with the aim to export it! Sikorsky S92 cabines, made by TATA for the export to foreign countries, while they are not used for any of our forces, is the perfect example.
The orders of the forces, under the Buy and Make (Indian) policy, should only further improve the potential to make India a production hub, but the overall aim remains on producing for exports!

(But i think if we can improve our reverse engineering capability then "Make India" campaign make sense......)

It doesn't, because reverse engineering, only gets you the capability to reproduce old techs, not to develop new techs. That's why even China struggles to develop own aircraft designs, or engines and remain dependent on external support. For us with far less industrial capability, it would be even worse to focus on reproducing rather than actual developing, that's why joint developments on NG weapons or systems gets us far more for the long run. The 20 to 30% contribution we have in FGFA, with the access to the whole project gets us more, than a 100% reverse engineering development, of an old Mig 29 for example.

I think this is one area where Modi can make a change, He is some one who knows how to drive our babu's and bureaucrats, he hold them accountable, Probably his experience in this will bring some change in the way DRDO works, Making them accountable is the best thing one can do.....

Lets hope so, for me and from what I have seen so far, he did good on getting bureaucrats in check and "advertising" India in foreign countries (the PR campaing of him is excellent), but he neither took on DRDO, nor did we see real reforms of the PSU's, MoD or the defence policies (Make in India in defence is a re-named policy that was implemented by Antony) to actually improve indigenous developments and in terms of defence modernisation we see a poor track reckord so far, mainly because he is giving more importance to his economic agenda.

 

[Nihil]

i was there in IITM for one semester, and we were designing some ADC of just 8bit, 20kHz for some xyz company.

Another open secret is that faculty hiring was terrible till 2000. The guys hired in the 80s and 90s are mostly worthless.

 

[Screambowl]

Another open secret is that faculty hiring was terrible till 2000. The guys hired in the 80s and 90s are mostly worthless.

how is it now, still asking for experience or just academic profile works? I remember, a friend of mine was asked to show 5 years experience in IC circuit designing in information and communication, after his masters, he was a fresher. hows the Phd scenario.. any good projects, dont share here. but just say yes on or if average then say average I mean improvement in research profile?

 

[Nihil]

how is it now, still asking for experience or just academic profile works? I remember, a friend of mine was asked to show 5 years experience in IC circuit designing in information and communication, after his masters, he was a fresher. hows the Phd scenario.. any good projects, dont share here. but just say yes on or if average then say average I mean improvement in research profile?

IIT Bombay and Kanpur - much improved
IISC Bangalore and JNCASR - still good, as always,
IIT Kharagpur and Madras - improved, but average
IIT Gandhinagar - pretty OK
Other new IITs, still much, much below average.

 

[sancho]

@sancho
Lack of importance to NRUAV due to connection to Israel, same with helos due to connection to Russia, low budget for local developed products and import of P8i are all past government decision which are tied to the vote bank politics and being beholden to US foreign policy respectively.
Import of helos has become critical due to unavailability of Dhruv and age of seaking helo.
UAV development will see future interest. Do228 buy is a smart pragmatic move

You are confusing the lack of interest of IN in the Indian aviationdevelopments with short term procurements. As said, we need around 100 medium class helicopters, the short term requirement howeven was only for 16 to 24, because the Sea Kings are undergoing upgrades. So IN easily could had gone for a minor procurement of ASW helicopter, while leading the development for an own naval multi role helicopter in larger numbers. We see the same in IAF with C130Js for the short term requirement, while the long term indigenous route is MTA. Same goes for UAVs or Saras, the Do 228 might cover the short term need, but there is no aim from IN to modify it to a unmanned drone, nor is there any other project of IN that is aimed to the development of naval drones and that, although we are doing reasonably good with the development of naval sensors for such smaller surveillance aircrafts. So again a field where IN could had pushed for more, but they didn't and looking for foreign MPAs, helicopters and drones instead.

 

[Screambowl]

IIT Bombay and Kanpur - much improved
IISC Bangalore and JNCASR - still good, as always,
IIT Kharagpur and Madras - improved, but average
IIT Gandhinagar - pretty OK
Other new IITs, still much, much below average.

It's better to get enrolled in IISc. Atleast for those who want to persue Phd, but the criteria is still tough. And those who are selected well what can I say.

 

[Nihil]

It's better to get enrolled in IISc. Atleast for those who want to persue Phd, but the criteria is still tough. And those who are selected well what can I say.

Tough is good, isn't it? I will say right now it is JNCASR that is doing the best work.

 

[nair]

What do you mean by that? You can only produce something, when you have developed it. Once the point in the industry knowing how to "produce" a 10t helicopter, when it can't develope one in India? We already can "produce" heavy class fighters in India, but struggle to develop a light class fighter.

When i said " Will " means the direction which govt wants to take on indignation, by providing enough funding on development along with accountability..... I am sure with the kind of talent available technology also can be developed..... But the problem with us is we have started late, and by that time we develop one technology that is outdated.......

No it's not! The intention of the buy and make (Indian) policy of the former government, that is the base for the Make in India agenda of the NDA is making India to a production hub, no matter on who the customer for there products are. The NDA government even specifically says, that the aim is, to produce parts in India, with the aim to export it! Sikorsky S92 cabines, made by TATA for the export to foreign countries, while they are not used for any of our forces, is the perfect example.
The orders of the forces, under the Buy and Make (Indian) policy, should only further improve the potential to make India a production hub, but the overall aim remains on producing for exports!

.

I agree. it sounds like outsourcing, probably the experience we gain with this may not help us developing such technologies .....

It doesn't, because reverse engineering, only gets you the capability to reproduce old techs, not to develop new techs. That's why even China struggles to develop own aircraft designs, or engines and remain dependent on external support. For us with far less industrial capability, it would be even worse to focus on reproducing rather than actual developing, that's why joint developments on NG weapons or systems gets us far more for the long run. The 20 to 30% contribution we have in FGFA, with the access to the whole project gets us more, than a 100% reverse engineering development, of an old Mig 29 for example.

Well i wasnt serious when i made that point, (you could see a smiley in that post), well i know the advantages and disadvantages of reverse engineering ( i have a friend who does that for my company), it is good if there is no further development prospect......

Lets hope so, for me and from what I have seen so far, he did good on getting bureaucrats in check and "advertising" India in foreign countries (the PR campaing of him is excellent), but he neither took on DRDO, nor did we see real reforms of the PSU's, MoD or the defence policies (Make in India in defence is a re-named policy that was implemented by Antony) to actually improve indigenous developments and in terms of defence modernisation we see a poor track reckord so far, mainly because he is giving more importance to his economic agenda.

I look at that as a campaign hangover, and slowly he will come out of it..... When it comes to handling Babu's, i get a feeling that he has not started looking at PSU's yet, and If he manages to drive them and make them accountable that will change the entire scenario, not only in defence but also in other sectors........ I seriously hope he delivers to the level of the expectation raised by himself.....

 

[Screambowl]

Tough is good, isn't it? I will say right now it is JNCASR that is doing the best work.

yeah I was going through the facilities they have, it is impressing. Xenon processor cluster they have got.

 

[Nihil]

yeah I was going through the facilities they have, it is impressing. Xenon processor cluster they have got.

Alongwith some of the best microscopy facilities in the world.
ICMS: ICMS Facilities

 

[Screambowl]

Alongwith some of the best microscopy facilities in the world.
ICMS: ICMS Facilities

That's why they are affiliated with NAL and Boeing.

 

[Krate M]

@sancho I blame the previous government for that. IN was exasperated with them. The first time IN chief resigned, that too due to lack of procurement.
I know your views on DRDO and to some extent I agree. But I don't agree with their portrayal in the media. And I also believe that the system can be improved and the IN has shown the way.
PS: in private IN guys do abuse the DRDO but will not wash dirty linen in public like the other services. The trishul program affected the navy the most, but you don't hear undue criticism, in fact they understood that the complexity of the problem was unsolvable with the resources at hand, and gave it a quiet burial. IN was first to depute a team to LCA, first to specify the BVR missiles it wanted on LCA and spent its own budget for the LCA.
You will find navy guys telling IAF's criticism of LCA is unwarranted.
One navy officer who was deputed for testing akash missile system said that the test requirements were unrealistic, after which the induction was cleared, similar cases have been seen in other cases like arjun.
Many a time good indigenous systems are discarded for foren maal due to various reasons, some of them treasonous.
All parties have bad apples. The question for us keyboard warriors is to how to promote national interest. I feel a national capability building is needed for that and a revamp of DRDO as well as procurement policies of the services.

On can IN push for more, sure absolutely. I want them to go for the aewc project.

 

[sancho]

I am sure with the kind of talent available technology also can be developed..... But the problem with us is we have started late, and by that time we develop one technology that is outdated......

That's the point, a country with not only so many people, but such a demographic, well educated and the mindset to change India has a great base, but what lacks is the proper guidance from above, that takes this potential and actually does something with it. I have no doubt that there are talented and skilled engineers and scientists in DRDO already, but unless we aim on actually delivering products, the potential is wasted! Same goes for HAL, they had all that was needed to develop and build HTT40 and 36, but they didn't used their potential well and failed to deliver.

I agree. it sounds like outsourcing, probably the experience we gain with this may not help us developing such technologies .....

Well it's a good aim, to increase Indias importance in the world by getting as much of the global defence production to India as possible, but at the same time we have to push our own development skills and capability too and not only focus on the production side too much. The licence production gets us low end jobs, but the skilled engineers and scientists will go abroad to foreign companies.

Well i wasnt serious when i made that point, (you could see a smiley in that post)

I know, just tried to point to the importance of actual defence R&D in and "for" India, because that gets forgotten at the moment, during the hype of Make in India. The more it's repeated, the less people tend to think about it and what it actually does for India.

When it comes to handling Babu's, i get a feeling that he has not started looking at PSU's yet, and If he manages to drive them and make them accountable that will change the entire scenario, not only in defence but also in other sectors........ I seriously hope he delivers to the level of the expectation raised by himself.....

True, there is the potential of change, especially since the NDA was voted in with such a mandate, so lets hope for the best and that they actually focus on reforms. It never was easier for a government to make a difference, but the start was not that impressing, at least if you look beyond the PR.

@sancho I blame the previous government for that. IN was exasperated with them. The first time IN chief resigned, that too due to lack of procurement.

He didn't resigned because of the lack of procurements (which doesn't make sense anyway, since IN and IAF benefited the most from the former MoD and DM), but because several accidents happends and because of the bureaucracy in the system, but that's another issue.

And I also believe that the system can be improved and the IN has shown the way.

No denying here, but they did that only in the field of developing some naval vessels and sub systems, but tend to do the opposite since they got more money to spend and that's as I showed is hardly deniable, since there is not a single major indigenous development which is lead by them today, other than the nuclear subs and carriers. Conventional subs, naval aviation (N-LCA is a DRDO project supported by the navy), nor even fleet support vessels are developed indigenously lead by IN today and that although our industry have reasonable experience in these fields.

IN was first to depute a team to LCA, first to specify the BVR missiles it wanted on LCA and spent its own budget for the LCA.

Because they had no other fighter development on their own, so they just jumped on board to have any naval fighter development. They didn't specified BVR missiles for LCA, but they have Derby missiles from the Harriers and it's logical that they want to use their stockpile which they bought for a lot of money, since the Migs can't use them, just as it was logical for IAF, to aim on using R77s as a common missile, while they now might hope on Astra being ready before they need to order Derby's, simply for logistical reasons.
IN for example now should push the development of a naval AMCA, to get a NG fighter according to their requirements, but once again they don't do anything and let ADA / DRDO make the mistakes again, by developing the fighter for the Air Force first.

 

[Krate M]

@sancho those disaster happened because of stopped procurement of batteries for submarines and the chief after his resignation in an interview said that if I can't even get batteries for submarines, what is the point in me remaining a chief.
The enthusiasm of IAF for LCA is well documented by AM Philip Rajkumar, the bigger point is that the IAF has still till date not specified the main BVR missile for LCA, correct me if I am wrong. The default option is derby thanks to Navy. The new engine requirement right at the beginning, while carrying on with the current engine, levcons introduced, sloping of the nose all requirements were specified at the word go.
While IAF introduced requirement like pressurized fuel chambers late in the day, just because certain other aircraft have it. IN is ready to work with the system as is, while IAF is continuously cribbing about it. I mean have you heard a peep about the AEWC or any other system working well?
IN is on record saying that for surface operations LCA thrust is more than adequate, and is capable of handling current threats in our milleu when the weapons testing will be over.
IN has looked into AMCA, and made calculations that suggested that the modifications required for naval AMCA will not be as extensive as LCA due to the structure of the plane. So a naval version will not be an issue.

About support vessels and others, the government under the pressure of government shipyard did not let the private sector do much. See the tonnage of the ships made for the navy by pvt shipyard and you will know. That is changed now, let's see how things move forward.