Was there a Kshatriya Holocaust on the subcontinent ?

[El Sidd]

Good on you, I am not here to educate rather show you the logical and critical way of thinking.

And the theory doesn't require certificate of approval from you and similar kind.

I am not sure if I can give out certificates nor if I have a kind or a type.

I am just interested in keeping an open mind

 

[Taimoor Khan]

I am not sure if I can give out certificates nor if I have a kind or a type.

I am just interested in keeping an open mind

If some basic things are not getting accepted due to preconceived notions and rather I would say, brain washing, then its hard to digest the facts and realities as your brain will discard them, far from being "open mind".

 

[El Sidd]

If some basic things are not getting accepted due to preconceived notions and rather I would say, brain washing, then its hard to digest the facts and realities as your brain will discard them, far from being "open mind".

Well my questions still remain afloat but really it doesn't matter what one believes in.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Well my questions still remain afloat but really it doesn't matter what one believes in.

You are not questioning rather making statements.

 

[El Sidd]

You are not questioning rather making statements.

I was asking a question.

Sorry bro if didn't get through

 

[Taimoor Khan]

I was asking a question.

Sorry bro if didn't get through

I got all day mate, you can put forth again.

 

[El Sidd]

I got all day mate, you can put forth again.

How do you deal with Adam in Makkah and Indus? Like archeology and theology?

Like how will you fit moses?


I guess i am asking timescale of the event with corresponding archeology

 

[niaz]

One thing any serious student of ancient history will notice when he travels the length and breadth of India is the lack of true Kshatriyas descended from the imperial bloodlines mentioned in the Vedas, Epics and Puranas. On the other hand - Brahmins, Vaisyas and Shudras are found nearly everywhere, and well-represented in the historically high density population regions.

All Kshatriya castes in India can be classified into three categories:
1) Recent claimants to Kshatriya identity e.g. Ahirs, Kurmis, Reddys, Marathas through a process of mythologizing and sankritization
2) Descendents of the 4th -7th century Scythian hordes whom Brahmins converted en masse to the neoVedic religion e.g. Rajputs, Gujjars
3) Castes with somewhat more credible claims to true Kshatriya status e.g. Khatris (word itself a derivative of Kshatriya, located mainly in SaptaSaaraswat), Jats (widely considered Irano-Scythian in origin, but with a long history dating back to at least Harshavardhana, whom everybody considered to be a Kshatriya and and possibly even to the Sacrifice of Daksha Prajapati).

Even if the Khatris' and Jats' somewhat tenuous claims on being the descendants of the imperial Kshatriyas are upheld, that leaves huge stretches of Bharata Varsha bereft of Bharatas. Particularly galling is their absence in the Gangetic plains, which nurtured the later stage of Indo-Aryan civilization.

Now if we look to literary sources for clarification, we know from the ancient Battle of Ten Kings in RV and other sources that the Trtsus, Purus, Yadus and Matsyas got to stay in the SaptaSaaraswat out of the initial grouping of Aryan tribes while Pakthas (Pakhtoons), Parsus (Persians), Parthas (Parthians), Bhargavas (Phrygians), Drhyus, Anus, Bhalanas (Alans ?), Panis and Dahae (Scythians ?) were driven out. We also know that Trtsus and Purus merged to form the mighty Bharatas, who left their indelible mark on the culture and civilization of what passes today as Hindustan.

From Chanakya's Arthashastra and Megasthenes' Indica, we know that some vestiges of the regal Kshatriyas were present in 300-200 BC since one of Chandragupta Maurya's rivals was the ruler of Punjab, a descendant of Porus and presumably a Bharata by blood. Going back further, Buddha is supposed to have been a Kshatriya. But reading between the lines, one can see that even at that time, the population of Kshatriyas was very small compared to the other three castes, strengthening the argument for some type of holocaust at an early time.

There are at least two Kshatriya holocausts mentioned in the ancient texts:

1) Parashuram (Persian Rama, descended from the Phrygian emigre Jamadagni) carried out multiple exterminations, particularly of the Yadus since the Hehayas who killed his father belonged to this tribe. Many Kshatriya tribes are said to have left India during this period. Because of the outsized role of the Bhargavas in redacting these myths, scholars take the Bhargava annihilation of Kshatriyas with a grain of salt.

2) Kurukshetra: Internecine warfare between royal Kshatriyas resulted in complete destruction of several Kshatriya races. Only the Yadavas, who had diminshed status compared to other Kshatriyas (could not assume Kingship), survived the Mahabharata War. (Yadavas too are said to have perished at Dwaraka subsequently but there is no evidence for their destruction elsewhere in India). The epic itself puts the death toll at 4 million. If taken at face value, this would be one-fourth the horror of WWI and one-thirteenth that of WWII.

The key issue here (also a vexing one) is dating the Mahabharata War, assuming it happened and dating Parashuram, assuming he existed.

What has been left un-researched is the possible socioeconomic consequences of such a disastrous war in a pre-modern society. One could predict hundreds possibly even thousands of years of peace as the most aggressive members of society were no longer present but also stasis as leaders, men with initiative and risk takers disappeared from society .

The burden of supporting the lavish and wasteful lifestyle, and war-debts of the Kshatriyas no longer had to be borne by the working classes, resulting in their liberation from tyranny, oppression and exploitation (hence the elevation of Krishna Vasudeva who was the architect of the Mahabharata War to a God).

Parasitical priests (Brahmins) previously reliant on the largesse of Kings during ostentatious sacrifices, war rituals, funereal rites, etc. were forced to impose the burden of paying for their services on an unwilling population, eventually resulting in the birth of anti-Brahmin populist movements such as Buddhism and Jainism, which sought to use the principle of "Ahimsa" and vegetarianism to destroy the very root of Brahminical power namely the Yagna or animal sacrificing fire ritual (with mixed results).

@padamchen @Joe Shearer @niaz

Hon Sir,

I find it difficult to accept any pre - Asoka subcontinent text on face value. Original stories were based on folklore anyway, but there are so many later additions that it is almost impossible to separate fact from fiction. For example the Ramayana supposed to have been written by Valmiki was much smaller than the version one comes across today which is heavily influenced by the 'Ram Lila' written by the poet Tulsi Das in the 16th century.

Also understand that Mahabharata supposed to have been written by the Rishi Vedavyasa was less than 1/3 of the Mahabharata that I have in my library. Closest to the real history is the Rajatrangini, however even that book appears to be more of a folklore than serious history. Therefore I honestly do not believe that I have sufficient knowledge about the subject that you have graciously called to my attention to add any thing useful. Especially on the subject of Indian castes; I am sure that you know hell of a lot more than I do.

I am however honoured that you considered me worthy enough to seek my opinion.

P.S.
I was away in Singapore attending the APPEC (Asia Pacific Petroleum & Energy Conference) and only returned Sunday night. I therefore beg your pardon for not responding earlier.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

I want to give a different take on the Kshatriya Holocaust which is much more plausible and recent

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

The Brahmanical definition of Kshatriya was much narrower in pre-mauryan times..It really denoted the ruling elite of the 16 major states and Republics that were present in the subcontinent in those times (ca. 500 BC)

of these 16, 13 were on a contiguous band across North India and were the states in which Brahmanical mode of life,organization of society,spiritual praxis were developed to the highest degree of complexity

The ruling elite of these 13 states were considered by the Brahmins as descendants of various semi-spiritual warrior dynasties such as Solar Dynasty and Lunar Dynasty..Pedigree and Lineage was highly important in the formative era of this second Urbanization

by 345 BC, the illegitimate son of former King Mahanandin killed the Brahmin/Kshatriya usurper Sishunagas and established his own dynasty..He was Mahapadma Nanda ...But he was the illegitimate son of Mahanandin by a Sudra woman...Mahapadma Nanda feared that the other 12 states in the contiguous band would not recognize his legitimacy..In this contiguous band, forest had been cleared off..so it was easy if one state wanted to invade another...Gandhara,Kamboja and Assaka Kingdom were comparatively cut off in relation to the contiguous band of these 13...to pre-emptively abolish any challenge to his legitimacy from the Kshatriya class of other states, he started attacking them and in turn conquered them..after conquering the other 13 states, he quickly put the ruling Kshatriya elite to the sword....He was basically India's Qin Shi Huang Di...That's why he was known as the "Destroyer of Kshatriyas" in the annals..and with that India's original Kshatriya class came to an end...Mahapadma Nanda was also antagonistic to Brahmins, as Brahmins thought his rise to power was a direct threat to the Brahmin-Kshatriya joint hold on state power...


The convulsions of the Nanda empire were too much to be ignored in the quasi-historical Puranas...But Brahmins were loathe to admit that a lowborn wiped out the Kshatriya class, and therefore put in Brahmin Parshurama in his place .............There was no love lost between the Nandas and the Brahmins, so when time came Brahmins were quick to offer their help to Chandragupta's rebellion...The Brahmins since then have been playing either Kingmakers or warming up conveniently to whoever in power

Some Maps would help to appreciate the situation