Was Jinnah secular or not?

[JonAsad]

I've seen them both up close.

They are of the same blood stock.

Fight the same.

No difference.

Both love numbers. Telling you this as a Parsi alpha who's always found himself alone and outnumbered in a fight.

Well Historically tell me what Muslims had that hindus didn't? That made Muslims successful?

 

[padamchen]

Well Historically tell me what Muslims had that hindus didn't? That made Muslims successful?

There's nothing called "Muslims"

The guys who conquered India had a 5000 year history of conquering the world.

Our B team.

 

[JonAsad]

Please realise Jinnah married way way up his social class.

Dhuaan abhi bhi uth reha hai.. tab ki aag lagi hue hai... Btw the blood line made her a Khoja.. not parsi.. doesn't matter what she believed in..

There's nothing called "Muslims"

The guys who conquered India had a 5000 year history of conquering the world.

Our B team.

The 5000 year old conquering history would have stopped suddenly after the British Raj why?

 

[padamchen]

Dhuaan abhi bhi uth reha hai.. tab ki aag lagi hue hai... Btw the blood line made her a Khoja.. not parsi.. doesn't matter what she believed in..

Please refer to my exact words.

She grew up and was brought up as a Parsi.

It's not uncommon. Especially with the elite.

They will be cultural Parsis. Even though not allowed into the fire temples or the towers of silence when they pass.

Dhuaan abhi bhi uth reha hai.. tab ki aag lagi hue hai... Btw the blood line made her a Khoja.. not parsi.. doesn't matter what she believed in..


The 5000 year old conquering history would have stopped suddenly after the British Raj why?

Im talking about the most successful military dynasties that spread Islam.

That made you Muslim in the first place.

You get what I'm saying of course ... You're 2007 batch.

 

[Nefarious]

Why did the vast overwhelming majority of non Hindu non Muslim denizens of undivided India choose their future with India over Pakistan?

Im from a family on my father's side that were equally spread between Pakistan and India btw.

Only one uncle stayed back in Lahore.

They left Pakistan in the late 60s and early 70s.

You use the word choose, I don't think you or I can speak for these people and conclude they chose.

Alot stayed put and were lucky to be on the 'right' side already. They had it easy. Others made perilous journey at massive cost - leaving all behind.

For others this journey was near impossible given economic and other factors.

And finally... I'm sure amongst them there who did choose and thought 'we been living with Hindu bros all this time no issue what's the problem?!', enter Modi. ' Oh Shi!!'.

 

[JonAsad]

She grew up and was brought up as. Parsi.

She grew up Muslim by default but end up falling for a Parsi... only reason the divorce didn't happen because it was not in the law.. Otherwise she would've been out back being Khoja again..

That made you Muslim in the first place.

Alhamdulillah with an independent country and rich history... what made Jinnah Daughter a Parsi in your books?.. Affiliation? Haan bhai kaisa dia?

 

[padamchen]

She grew up Muslim by default but end up falling for a Parsi... only reason the divorce didn't happen because it was not in the law.. She would've been out back to Khoja again..

Im confused. Im talking about the daughter. You seem to be stuck on Ruttie.

Ruttie was pure Parsi by blood.

Only very kattar traditionalists believe in the defilement paradigm of the blood and womb.

In today's India she would have continued going to the fire temple to pray. Continued wearing her sudreh and kusti. Though her daughter would not be allowed a Navjote.

And her body would not be placed in the Tower of Silence.

Hope that explains.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Was Jinnah secular or not?

I say he was secular.

@El Sidd @Rusty @T-123456 @shah_123

If you truly believe jinnah was secular, I advise you to be careful living in India. The "secular" folk (and the Islamic extremists they nurture) in India will flay you for such treachery to their own "secular" cause.

 

[JonAsad]

Any ho.. Jinnah was secular... but Muslim.. had he been a religious person he would have never allowed her daughter to marry a non muslim.. by hook or crook.. had he been religious there would've been no trace of parsi in her daughters upbringing..

Btw Jinnah parsi wife became a Muslim.. so 2 muslims consummate a baby Muslim.. can't understand how she was raised a parsi.. @padamchen doc.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Leaving this here.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1073824168548937728

@MayaBazar and all Indians, please cease your disinformation campaign against Quaid e Azam. His loyalty was only to the Muslims, who were devoted to him.

Jinnah established an entire ministry to reconstruct Islam back into the state under the femous Allama Muhammad Asad. As soon as Jinnah died the seculars shut it down and sent Asad abroad. Now they have rewired history to claim Jinnah wanted a secular state.
This is why Muslims become terrorists.

Exactly, what kind of a "secular state" brings a European Muslim convert and scholar of Polish Jewish origin to head its foreign office?

 

[IMARV]

Religion is a tool and an intelligent men will use it, at will.

 

[Pakistani E]

He wasn't really secular. I would call him a "Liberal Muslim", a group of British era educated Muslims from the subcontinent who were clever enough to realise that modern education served as a gateway to political freedom in a country dominated by British and Hindu elites. Sir Syed Ahmad Khan was perhaps the most iconic of this group, and one that got the ball rolling. They were also vehemently opposed by the orthodox clergy for their openness to new ideas.

Unfortunately, we have seen very few of the same types of Liberal Muslims in Pakistan, otherwise this country would not have slid down the path of religious extremism as it did.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

He wasn't really secular. I would call him a "Liberal Muslim", a group of British era educated Muslims from the subcontinent who were clever enough to realise that modern education served as a gateway to political freedom in a country dominated by British and Hindu elites. Sir Syed Ahmad Khan was perhaps the most iconic of this group, and one that got the ball rolling. They were also vehemently opposed by the orthodox clergy for their openness to new ideas.

Unfortunately, we have seen very few of the same types of Liberal Muslims in Pakistan, otherwise this country would not have slid down the path of religious extremism as it did.

This is not true brother. Neither Allama Iqbal nor Quaid e Azam were Liberal Muslims, they were Modernists. In this category they also fit in with Maulana Maududi, Dr. Israr Ahmad, Sayyid Qutb, Khomeini, King Faisal, and other such leaders.

Many people do not understand this nuance. All the leaders I quoted above were outside the traditional ulema which controlled discourse in the Muslim community, and also who had utterly failed to meet the challenges of the modern era. Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan also came out with his reforms to undo what he saw as the stagnation of Islam at the hands of the traditional ulema.

Allama Iqbal for example makes no secret of his aims in his shayri to revive the high spirit of Islam and to call out the religious charlatan. His book in English is called "The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam."

Dr. Israr Ahmad, prominient student of Maududi, Iqbal, and supporter of Quaid e Azam, stated in one lecture, "There is no moulvi in Islam. Every person is required to learn his religion and educate himself."

 

[padamchen]

Any ho.. Jinnah was secular... but Muslim.. had he been a religious person he would have never allowed her daughter to marry a non muslim.. by hook or crook.. had he been religious there would've been no trace of parsi in her daughters upbringing..

Btw Jinnah parsi wife became a Muslim.. so 2 muslims consummate a baby Muslim.. can't understand how she was raised a parsi.. @padamchen doc.

Bro there's no concept of "becoming anything" in ancient Aryan organic faiths.

This neo Abrahamic concept is purely Christian and Muslim. It's your belief system. Not ours.

A Zoroastrian is born a Zoroastrian.

A Hindu is born a Hindu.

A Jew is born a Jew.

This was the old world.

The new faiths bucked the natural order of God to play the numbers game and first establish and then spread.

By displacing the older established faiths.

The ONLY way to do that was to manipulate the natural divine order that finks faith to blood.

It goes against the natural order of things.

 

[Naofumi]

Bro there's no concept of "becoming anything" in ancient Aryan organic faiths.

This neo Abrahamic concept is purely Christian and Muslim. It's your belief system. Not ours.

A Zoroastrian is born a Zoroastrian.

A Hindu is born a Hindu.

A Jew is born a Jew.

This was the old world.

The new faiths bucked the natural order of God to play the numbers game and first establish and then spread.

By displacing the older established faiths.

The ONLY way to do that was to manipulate the natural divine order that finks faith to blood.

It goes against the natural order of things.

But the idea of equality is not possible when someone is born as the "chosen one".