Was Jinnah secular or not?

[Shantanu_Left]

LOL.

There're three of them: the other two are American Pakistani, who is obsessed with the thought that there are 700,000 Indian troops in Kashmir (he has been shown that the actual number is less than 300,000, but for him, it has become an article of faith), and Pakistan Forever; after exhausting every other argument, he gets down to asking for REAL EVIDENCE of any argument put forward, at which point the discussion goes down the tubes, because everyone is laughing too hard.

xeuss, Naofumi, Clifftonite are great people; there are other truly magisterial members, but you will get to know them for yourself. They post very rarely, but each post is a treasure.

Happy line drawing.

Thanks for the heads-up. I won't engage with those two posters then. I believe you completely.

I am also looking forward to the "other truly magisterial members." I didn't say it's not a nice forum. It certainly is. Far better than BharatRakshak or reading Indian poster's comments on Twitter and YouTube.

If a majority of online Indians were well-behaved, I would never have the need to come to a Pakistani forum to feel sane. What an irony!

Trolls have taken over India's Internet discussions.

 

[Joe Shearer]

And why was I clubbed with those two? Genuine curiosity.

Tell the truth (when you can), write interesting, challenging posts, don't kiss anyone's arse......good enough reasons, I should imagine.

Haha, it's not just that. I and Xeuss have nothing in common except being Indian Muslims, for Cliftonite - well, I am certainly closer in the "modernist" views but still have vast differences in worldviews and maybe even knowledge and understandings.

Umm, unless you are speaking Latin, the common usage in English would be "xeuss and I".

Just saying.

I am not at all suggesting that your views match, any of you with any of the other two; it's about self-respect and dignity.

Let the guy speak for himself, @Joe Shearer

Which guy?

You must be referring to the Phantom Zone. I have a prized collection of chittering lost souls on my ignore list. As the name implies, I ignore them. Whichever this idiot, whatever his latest brain-fart, it shall remain ignored.

Thanks for the heads-up. I won't engage with those two posters then. I believe you completely.

I am also looking forward to the "other truly magisterial members." I didn't say it's not a nice forum. It certainly is. Far better than BharatRakshak or reading Indian poster's comments on Twitter and YouTube.

If a majority of online Indians were well-behaved, I would never have the need to come to a Pakistani forum to feel sane. What an irony!

Trolls have taken over India's Internet discussions.

The two who are magisterial are Niaz (I am not tagging them, they have earned their privacy) and fatman17. I used to idolise Oscar (he calls himself another combination of those five letters, and it is confusing to remember what it is in any given month), but he has decided that the APS attack was organised or at least paid for by Indian intelligence, and there is now an impenetrable wall between him and all Indians.

Besides that, there are a minimum two dozen very decent gentleman (a couple of ladies) of the sort that you would readily invite home for a cup of tea, no questions asked. Top drawer. But that doesn't stop either side from vigorously defending what they believe is right.

Lastly.

A combination of courteous language and dour resistance to attacks on one's point of view when unaccompanied by reasoning is sometimes interpreted as guileful behaviour. When attacked thus, I shrug and move on. There are enough officers and gentlemen among the Pakistanis and the decent Indians, whom you have probably met already, who will defend you. Sometimes with force and a robust rebuttal.

 

[JackTheRipper]

in his real life he was secular , but he was a clever politican used religion for his political ambition . .

No, Its lie
He even never said he wanted a separate country,
He wanted an area/state for Muslims,
Check his famous 14th Points/Demand

Jinnah was pure secular, he mostly live in pent shirts, he had no Beard

He is with Western Style Mustaches

He never said any racism remarks against any religion including Hindus,
Some people want to draw Beard on Jinnah Pics..
But later, people started saying he created Pakistan because of religion, but he want an area/state in India but Nehru, Gandhi gave Pakistan as Gift

Gandhi and Nehru created Pakistan, for this reason Gandhi was assassinated by Nathuram Godse for treason..

Same happend in 1971, Bangali leaders want to live with Pakistan,
Sheikh Mujibur Rahman was very popular politician in East Pakistan (Bangladesh) than Bhutto in West Pakistan (Current Pakistan),
There was chances Sheikh Mujibur Rahman will become prime minister of Pakistan, but not Bhutto,
So Bhutto created Bangladesh with the help of General Yahya and some other Punjabi politicians,
Sheikh Mujibur Rahman clearly said in his speeches, that West Pakistanis (politicians) do not want that Bangalis should live with them, he tried many times, but they are not interested..

So, when Bangladesh created, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman declared traitor while Bhutto as Hero..

 

[Shantanu_Left]

The two who are magisterial are Niaz (I am not tagging them, they have earned their privacy) and fatman17. I used to idolise Oscar (he calls himself another combination of those five letters, and it is confusing to remember what it is in any given month), but he has decided that the APS attack was organised or at least paid for by Indian intelligence, and there is now an impenetrable wall between him and all Indians.

Besides that, there are a minimum two dozen very decent gentleman (a couple of ladies) of the sort that you would readily invite home for a cup of tea, no questions asked. Top drawer. But that doesn't stop either side from vigorously defending what they believe is right.

Lastly.

A combination of courteous language and dour resistance to attacks on one's point of view when unaccompanied by reasoning is sometimes interpreted as guileful behaviour. When attacked thus, I shrug and move on. There are enough officers and gentlemen among the Pakistanis and the decent Indians, whom you have probably met already, who will defend you. Sometimes with force and a robust rebuttal.

I'm just good with the earlier list of people who are worth ignoring. But thanks.

Some Pakistani members here might think I'm being uncharitable about their fellow posters because of their nationality. It is simply not correct: I have even higher threshold standards for my fellow countrymen, the Indians. I have absolutely zero tolerance for the views of Indian posters who support RSS and Hindutva. So many of them are blocked now: I know everything about the views of the Sanghis and there is nothing new I can learn from them. Off they go to the ignore bin.

If at all, I give Pakistani posters here the benefit of the doubt. You can talk about anything. Even bash India as much as you want, I enjoy listening to you. But you have to do it with class. A persistent hostile tone means I don't wish to deal with you. Not in the real world, so that means neither here. I have ignored a few Pakistani posters here for being extremely persistent in their hostility. Mainly of a racial or religious kind of hostility, they just don't know where to stop.

I don't think I made these etiquette rules: these are the real world interaction rules as well. If you act a d*ck to others over a continuous period of time, don't be surprised if they suddenly slam the door in your face.

 

[Joe Shearer]

No, Its lie
He even never said he wanted a separate country,
He wanted an area/state for Muslims,
Check his famous 14th Points/Demand

Jinnah was pure secular, he mostly live in pent shirts, he had no Beard

He is with Western Style Mustaches

He never said any racism remarks against any religion including Hindus,
Some people want to draw Beard on Jinnah Pics..
But later, people started saying he created Pakistan because of religion, but he want an area/state in Indiam but Nehru, Gandhi gave Pakistan as Gift

Gandhi and Nehru created Pakistan, for this reason Gandhi was assassinated by Nathuram Godse for treason..

Same happend in 1971, Bangali leaders want to live with Pakistan,
Sheikh Mujibur Rahman was very popular politician in East Pakistan (Bangladesh) than Bhutto in West Pakistan (Current Pakistan),
There was chances Sheikh Mujibur Rahman will become prime minister of Pakistan, but not Bhutto,
So Bhutto created Bangladesh with the help of General Yahya and some other Punjabi politicians,
Sheikh Mujibur Rahman clearly said in his speeches, that West Pakistanis (politicians) do not want that Bangalis should live with them, he tried many times, but they are not interested..

So, when Bangladesh created, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman declared traitor while Bhutto as Hero..

Before you post, please learn to respect ensure that the material you use, including pictures, do not insult the leaders of other countries. The picture of Gandhi's assassination above comes from a heavily tilted account that represents the clean upright young Godse presiding over the execution of a cringing, whining Gandhi.

It is assumed that you did not intend to promote the Sangh Parivar's myth-making about the event.

 

[Kabira]

Being secular for a religious minority with chance of independent homeland is more difficult then hindus on PDF like to admit. This was the case before 1930, majority of muslims were supporters of hindu brahmin dominant Congress.

Today hindus are majority and dominant in India but as a secular nation its dead. Jinnah stopped being ideal secular and instead more pragmatic.

 

[JackTheRipper]

Before you post, please learn to respect the leaders of other countries.

what is wrong in my post ?

 

[Baghial]

Was Jinnah secular or not?

I say he was secular.

@El Sidd @Rusty @T-123456 @shah_123

well we could have asked him directley, if he is secular?
unfortunatley he,s not avaliable to comment!

be happy with what u got. instead of what others might had?

 

[Joe Shearer]

what is wrong in my post ?

That picture of Gandhi's assassination.

It was taken from a Sanghi film showing a manly, upright Godse confronting a cringing, whining Gandhi, begging for his life.

If you knew anything about the circumstances, Godse was a bigot and a fanatic, and a member of a clandestine group of members of the Hindu Mahasabha, conceived and led by the (anonymously) self-proclaimed hero, Vinayak Savarkar, and led also by Shyama Prasad Mukherjee. The actual assassination was marked by the insinuation of Godse into the open, unguarded prayer meeting held by Gandhi, and his firing at a defenceless old man who only took the name of God as he died.

[Edited}

Being secular for a religious minority with chance of independent homeland is more difficult then hindus on PDF like to admit. This was the case before 1930, majority of muslims were supporters of hindu brahmin dominant Congress.

Today hindus are majority and dominant in India but as a secular nation its dead. Jinnah stopped being ideal secular and instead more pragmatic.

If it please your excellency, you might consider allowing 'hindus on PDF' to speak for themselves, and to admit whatever they should admit for themselves. What the religious minority thought before 1930 is a complex issue, and does not lend itself to the road-roller school of historical analysis.

Obiter dicta are so attractive a medium of communication that one cannot blame the weak-minded who use it as a crutch for their lack of effort to analyse a situation. Of course, that is a general remark, and does not apply to a deep and original thinker such as yourself. It refers to the random village idiot who is obsessed with retaining a presence in the eyes of his adoring public, at the expense of sensible discussion.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

It was taken from a Sanghi film showing a manly, upright Godse confronting a cringing, whining Gandhi, begging for his life.

So they showed Gandhi as a poor chap. Interesting

 

[Joe Shearer]

So they showed Gandhi as a poor chap. Interesting

I did leave space for an alternative narrative:

It refers to the random village idiot who is obsessed with retaining a presence in the eyes of his adoring public, at the expense of sensible discussion.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

in his real life he was secular , but he was a clever politican used religion for his political ambition . .

Being secular in ones personal life has nothing to do with protecting the rights of a minority community and advocating for the creation of a separate country where large parts of the minority will be a majority and can govern themselves without fear of discrimination and persecution.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yes very complex. Hindus on the other hand didn't even accept Jinnah demands but in return wanted muslims to be secular.

Pity Azad didn't get the memo.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Yes very complex. Hindus on the other hand didn't even accept Jinnah demands but in return wanted muslims to be secular.

Can you edit your post to where the responses aren't merged with the quotes?

 

[Max]

Jinnah was Centrist. jog on.