Wargaming Cold Start

[Jihad]

You are right mann, But i will try my level best to let them know that we are not those kind of people who are shown on India media and i will try to convince them we are Humans and we want to live in peace and harmony but our desire for peace must not be taken as our weakness and we will never compromise our respect and dignity for Peace sake.

No country can just become a superpower by just buying 100 of Billions worth of military equipment. India has developed herself in the field of science, technology, economy and defence but they should not try to force there will on us and thats why we have BORDERS FOR, so that they can live happily at their home and we are happy at our home.

Pakistan is here to stay and we will survive Inshallah.

I do not mind having India as neighbour, infact, I respect their developments and applaud their industries aswell as their culture.
They are a nation with their own identity.
However, with growing power comes more greed.
And we Pakistanis have certainly been feeling the heat from Indian side, and i'm afraid things will only get worser as India gets stronger and keeps growing, they will have more foolish and disrespectful demands towards Pakistan, afterall, when you're strong, you do not have to worry for the consequenses of your actions.
However, Inshallah Pakistan will continue to develop as nation, we won't sit tight and do nothing.
No Pakistani wants his/her country to be at the mercy of another country, we are too proud and united for that.
In the end, the only thing I want is a peaceful relationship between both countries.
I just hate the fact that we're gonna see alot more power boasting from the Indian side in the very near future, Pakistan should not stay behind.
I do not mind if India has all the crazy gadgets and budgets, but once it affects Pakistan in a very negative way, I won't be too happy with it.
This "superior" feeling is common among alot of Indians.
It's all fine by me, as long as nothing stupid happens in reality, e.g. a military conflict.
People need to take it easy with their egos, and not seek for military opportunities assuming their country can take it regardless of any retaliation.
It's a mental situation, when you feel tough, you act tough.

 

[Thebignag]

Dear Metalfalcon, You have correctly put it. There is more need for people to people contact to understand each other better. 60 years ago, we were a single nation, who fought together for freedom. But then again the “ Butterfly effect” can not be wish away. If only Jinnah was offered the Prime Ministership, this whole mess and bloodshed from partition till date and god knows till when… could have been avoided. But bygone be bygone… But I would like to put across my views against some of the points raised by you.

History is usually written by the victors.

We have Indian History and Pakistani history, adapted to suite the respective nation. Fortunately for us, our school children read about the Pre-Moghul Hindu period, the Moghul Period and the British period. Jinah is given proper place in Indian history textbook, so is Khan Abdul Gafar Khan – the frontier Gandhi. Khilafat movement is given equal importance as satyaghara movement in Indian school textbooks.

Thankfully, I was fortunate enough to read History written by third party Neutral writers. I recognize and accept that Indian policies too have not been always that saintly.

Let me start off with your comments – “Regarding Issue of China, I would like to tell you that Pakistan and India were enemies even before the creation of China ~ Isn’t is unfortunate that you have used the word ENEMY here? I am not willing to recognize Pakistan as my country’s enemy. A race to consolidate territories during our formative years let to a war in 1947 and till date we are carrying the burden, through numerous conflicts… 60 years down the line, the borders stands almost where it was in 1947.


“Regarding Issue of China, I would like to tell you that Pakistan and India were enemies even before the creation of China and Pak-China relations and your comment about China that they are using Pakistan as a diversion for India.... well i will disagree with you on this point China doesn't need help on anybody in order to deal with her challenges on the contrary Pakistan needs China to counter India. China on the other hand is trying to Brooke peace between India and Pakistan. It will be wrong if a say Russia used India to counter China isn't it.”

Well, you may not agree but, let me elaborate a little, and may be this might trigger reevaluation of your position. Nations don’t have permanent friends or enemies, but permanent interests. Its’ all give and take. You have received valuable technological support in Nuclear and Missile Technologies. What have the Chinese received in returns? Money? Aksai Chin ? My friend, China needs you more than you need China. Don’t short sell yourself  “Challenges” as mentioned by you are not always military… US has been the Global Cop  since the demise of USSR. China tried a trial run last month. And I do not blame them for that. China will be a super power by 2020 and it will come with its’ perks, responsibilities and vices. “It will be wrong if a say Russia used India to counter China isn't it.” Not really. I agree with you that USSR needed India by their side, first to counter China and second to Counter US, but we did not short sell though 

I would like to thank you for accepting that India is a country of equal opportunity. Like many Hindus, Many Muslims, Sikh, Parsis, Jews and Christians have rose to high prominence. But unfortunately, we also have seen communal clashes. Gujrat was extremely unfortunate. But, your perception that Muslims in India are persecuted based on their religion is not correct. We must appreciate that when 1.2 billion people who has equal right to the nation and it’s resources and services has go around living and compete for the same, there are bound to be clashes. Now 20% of our population is Muslims. Is there a way to avoid clashes within muslims or within muslims and hindus? Or within hindus? Impossible. Add to that a dash of rightwing politicians, both in Hindus and Muslims. What do you get??? Now add to that Aaj Tak, ( your favourate News Channel &#61514 what happens? So news, which gets more TRP is telecast with repeat footage, over and over again. My friend, Muslims in India go about their business as a Hindu or a Christian, facing the same challenges. All muslim mosques are protected ( Babari, one in a million mosque in India, we can discuss separately ). You will be surprised to know that in India, Muslims have their separate personal laws, as per Islamic Practices. Even Pakistan, being an Islamic nation does not have the same. Your perception that Muslims are persecuted in India needs to be validated after proper study. Not to score brownie points, but just for the records, more muslims are killed by muslims in Pakistan than Muslims killed in India. Even though India’s population is five times Pakistan.

Mumbai attack. Hope Pakistan will investigate the issue based on Indian claims and evidences and the evidences of other countries, that may be available. Everyone knows, that more people are killed by terrorist violence in Pakistan itself than in India. If the evidences provided by various governments and intelligence services point to some persons, whether state or non state, it would be prudent to take actions against them. Not for India’s sake, but for the sake of Pakistan.

One wrong notion, that seems to come across is that the Indian Military can order the civilian government, in India. This is far from true. You may not be able to appreciate the same, with your own experience as bench mark. But yes, The civilian government will consult professionals from time to time. And it will consult with the Military when the issue is national security. The Military can only advice the government but not ask/order. But of course, there is no solution to Kashmir, if territorial changes will be involved. Neither an Indian nor a Pakistani government can take a stand. The only pragmatic solution is to convert LOC into International Border. But even to agree to this ( only solution ) it will take strong leadership on both sides.

But coming back to my original post, where I emphasized that Strategic Depth is responsible, in military terms, The Mumbai attacks would have solved a host of Pakistan army’s problems, had had India responded with military aggression or at least as it did in 2001 – a military build up.

How is it?

This is how I look at this.

First it would have brought all infighting amongst the Islamist fractions within Pakistan, which was sapping the Army in terms of man and material as well as moral to a halt and united the nation together.

Second It would have allowed the military enough reason the abandon the western front, forcing the NATO forces to the mercy of the Taliban. The logistical lines of NATO would have been cut off immediately by the militia, forcing NATO to exist or to maintain a token presence, while Pro Pakistan Taliban takes control of Afganistan.

This would have work as a hedge to Obama’s stated policy vis-à-vis Pakistan, while giving back enough bargaining power back to the Pakistani Army. Hence in my original post, I had indicated that India should prepare for another horrible attack, like Mumbai, , or a serious provocation overtly the Pakistani Army or its’ instruments, before Feb 2009

For a nation there are no permanent friends or enemies, only permanent interests.

I look forward to your views and arguements

 

[metalfalcon]

If only Jinnah was offered the Prime Ministership, this whole mess and bloodshed from partition till date and god knows till when… could have been avoided. But bygone be bygone… But I would like to put across my views against some of the points raised by you.

Please don't insult my National Hero father of our Nation Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah, He was never offered Premiership and he never demanded premiership he demanded rights for Indian Muslims which congress failed to guarantee and he was in congress but at the same time Indian Muslim League was in full swing and Campaign for Pakistan was already at its peak and later on Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah joined Muslim League. He was not an ordinary Politician which you guys have right now who always demand a post to remain silent Quiad's caliber was far above as compared to other politicians of your country, don't blame him for all the bloodshed and killingsif you have some solid evidence about that please share it with me but please don't disgrace my Quaid as we Pakistanis on Defence.pk will never disgrace your Leader Mahatma Gandhi.

History is usually written by the victors.

We have Indian History and Pakistani history, adapted to suite the respective nation. Fortunately for us, our school children read about the Pre-Moghul Hindu period, the Moghul Period and the British period. Jinah is given proper place in Indian history textbook, so is Khan Abdul Gafar Khan – the frontier Gandhi. Khilafat movement is given equal importance as satyaghara movement in Indian school textbooks.

Well i will not disagree here you are quite right that Indian History and Pakistani history are adapted to suite the respective nation.

But there is a strong criticism on Muhammad bin Qasim who brought Islam to India, Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah as you have mentioned above, Tippu Sultan who is accused of ill treating Hindus in Indian History books, in fact he had Hindu generals in His Army and even french People admired him for that. Any how we are thought in our schools what suits best our national agenda.

Regarding China its again the same thing you are told something else and we are told something else but China is our friend and we Thank China for standing with us every time we needed them, for your kind information China has never let Pakistani Expectations down. As you said its all about Give and take, they give us something and in return we have to gave them something as well this is what is called TRADE and even India has this kind of relation with all the friends she has isn't it.

You will be surprised to know that in India, Muslims have their separate personal laws, as per Islamic Practices. Even Pakistan, being an Islamic nation does not have the same. Your perception that Muslims are persecuted in India needs to be validated after proper study. Not to score brownie points, but just for the records, more muslims are killed by muslims in Pakistan than Muslims killed in India. Even though India’s population is five times Pakistan.

I Know Muslims have their own Law in India but that does not mean we donthave any law in Pakistan, Pakistan is going trough crisis but our Judiciary used to be very strong and Fair. Regarding killing of Muslims, Please not that in Pakistan no Body is called on Religious basis either they are killed on political basis, Racial, Provincial or Materialistic basis, Sectarian violence prevails in few cities only. But on the other hand Muslims in India are targeted only on Religious basis.

There are many Misconceptions and Misunderstanding on both the sides and we need to solve them through proper dialogue don't make it look like a fact because reality on the ground is different as compared to shown on AAJ Tak (Its not my fav channel).

Mumbai attack. Hope Pakistan will investigate the issue based on Indian claims and evidences and the evidences of other countries, that may be available. Everyone knows, that more people are killed by terrorist violence in Pakistan itself than in India. If the evidences provided by various governments and intelligence services point to some persons, whether state or non state, it would be prudent to take actions against them. Not for India’s sake, but for the sake of Pakistan.

Off course Pakistan will take actions against anyone who is involved if found guilty but I fear this case will end up like Samjhuta Express incident in which Initially Pakistan was accused and blamed but at the end it turned out to be an Indian Army Colonel who was Involved in it. (its my personal view and don't take it as a Fact or 100 % sure scenario, i may be wrong at least this time)

Indian Threats has united Pakistani nation and Pakistan stood to the challenge but it doesn't mean that Pakistan is gaining many things because of this war hysteria with India. On the contrary India is gaining more as Compare to Pakistan.

1.) India is gaining Sympathy from many countries around the globe.

2.) India wants Pakistan to be declared a terrorist state so that India can hide her terrorists activities in Kashmir and this will also give India a chance to attack Pakistan.

3.) India wants to behave like USA and attack Pakistani areas claiming them to be terrorist hideouts and safe houses.

4.) India wants to get rid of Pakistan right now because Pakistan is weakest at this moment because of internal affairs, war on terror and Political instability and India don't want to waste this opportunity.

5.) Soon after Mumbai attacks India Blamed Pakistan for that and there were ideas of Surgical Strikes on Pakistan, As tensions were at the peak India needed just one more attack like mumbai as an excuse to attack Pakistan. ( I read this in an article in newspaper)

You are right in saying that there can a attack on any other city in India but Pakistan will never want that but for India .....India has already convinced International Body that in such case India will attack Pakistan without any further delay. So you tell me who will benefit from war, No body mann just no Body. we are trying to root out extremism from our areas and war with India will disturb our efforts and we don't want that.

 

[metalfalcon]

One wrong notion, that seems to come across is that the Indian Military can order the civilian government, in India. This is far from true. You may not be able to appreciate the same, with your own experience as bench mark. But yes, The civilian government will consult professionals from time to time. And it will consult with the Military when the issue is national security. The Military can only advice the government but not ask/order. But of course, there is no solution to Kashmir, if territorial changes will be involved. Neither an Indian nor a Pakistani government can take a stand. The only pragmatic solution is to convert LOC into International Border. But even to agree to this ( only solution ) it will take strong leadership on both sides.

Indians always blame that Army is ruling Pakistan and agencies are ruling Pakistan, my dear friend its the same case in India as well, our leadership just as in India takes the professional advice from services chief and agencies.

Kashmir issue should be solved according to the will of Kashmirs and India is hesitating to involve Kashmiri representatives in Dialogue between India and Pakistan.

 

[metalfalcon]

I do not mind having India as neighbour, infact, I respect their developments and applaud their industries aswell as their culture.
They are a nation with their own identity.
However, with growing power comes more greed.
And we Pakistanis have certainly been feeling the heat from Indian side, and i'm afraid things will only get worser as India gets stronger and keeps growing, they will have more foolish and disrespectful demands towards Pakistan, afterall, when you're strong, you do not have to worry for the consequenses of your actions.
However, Inshallah Pakistan will continue to develop as nation, we won't sit tight and do nothing.
No Pakistani wants his/her country to be at the mercy of another country, we are too proud and united for that.
In the end, the only thing I want is a peaceful relationship between both countries.
I just hate the fact that we're gonna see alot more power boasting from the Indian side in the very near future, Pakistan should not stay behind.
I do not mind if India has all the crazy gadgets and budgets, but once it affects Pakistan in a very negative way, I won't be too happy with it.
This "superior" feeling is common among alot of Indians.
It's all fine by me, as long as nothing stupid happens in reality, e.g. a military conflict.
People need to take it easy with their egos, and not seek for military opportunities assuming their country can take it regardless of any retaliation.
It's a mental situation, when you feel tough, you act tough.

I must appreciate you patriotism and your Love for Pakistan, you are indeed an Asset to Pakistani youth.

You are 100 % we have to move on and develop not only our defence sector but also our economy and Power sector.

we will also have all the crazy gadgets just look at this you will be impressed.

POF Eye - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

India will never have a Dictating status over Pakistan.

 

[Jihad]

I must appreciate you patriotism and your Love for Pakistan, you are indeed an Asset to Pakistani youth.

You are 100 % we have to move on and develop not only our defence sector but also our economy and Power sector.

we will also have all the crazy gadgets just look at this you will be impressed.

POF Eye - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

India will never have a Dictating status over Pakistan.

Thanks for the kind words, much appreciated.
All of us want to see Pakistan improve on all aspects, we love our country.
And yes i've seen the POF Eye, my father told me about it so I checked it out, amazing piece of equipment, it makes me proud to see something like that being manufactured and developed by our companies.
There are also some videos of it, really nice people should check it out!
And I agree, they will never have a dictating status over Pakistan, or atleast, it's the job of the people of Pakistan to make sure it never happens.
But seeing recent comments by Indian members, they feel so powerful and dominant, it's a slap towards someones integrity and dignity.
Perhaps they need a "slap" back to reality.

 

[Thebignag]

Dear Metalfalcon, Thank you for your reply. But, I was surprised by your comments,

COLOR="DarkGreen"]If only Jinnah was offered the Prime Ministership, this whole mess and bloodshed from partition till date and god knows till when… could have been avoided. But bygone be bygone… But I would like to put across my views against some of the points raised by you"[/[/COLOR]I]

Please don't insult my National Hero father of our Nation Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah, He was never offered Premiership and he never demanded premiership he demanded rights for Indian Muslims which congress failed to guarantee and he was in congress but at the same time Indian Muslim League was in full swing and Campaign for Pakistan was already at its peak and later on Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah joined Muslim League. [. He was not an ordinary Politician which you guys have right now who always demand a post to remain silent Quiad's caliber was far above as compared to other politicians of your country, don't blame him for all the bloodshed and killingsif you have some solid evidence about that please share it with me but please don't disgrace my Quaid as we Pakistanis on Defence.pk will never disgrace your Leader Mahatma Gandhi.



In my post there is no insult mention about Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah. As mentioned in my post. He has an appropriate place in Indian history and his contribution to the freedom struggle is being taught in Indian schools. In my post neither there is any mention of Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah, demanding any Posts, to remain quite. In my post, I had mentioned that many a times, I have felt that if only Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah was offered again offered the post of premiership to alley the concerns of undivided Indian’s Muslim, the partition, might have been avoided. And the subsequent bloodsheds, which continues till today. May be you and I need to read each other history book to be more objective. Do guide me to online history documents that might be available.

Meanwhile, please feel free to analyze Gandhi. We Indians have and continue to do so, with regular critical publishing in India.

Another point : “ he demanded rights for Indian Muslims which congress failed to guarantee and he was in congress but at the same time Indian Muslim League was in full swing and Campaign for Pakistan was already at its peak and later on Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah joined Muslim League.”

I can not debate on the above, as there are two histories, we are discussing here. But, as on today, the Indian state guarantees equal rights and obligations to all it’s citizen, irrespective of their personal beliefs. But rest assured, He has his rightfull place in Indian history and some of his decendents, who are in India continues to live a dignified life.

 

[Thebignag]

Dear Metalfalcon, Good that you had brought out this issue and angle. This have been oft repeated by many Pakistani commentators in TV channels.

Off course Pakistan will take actions against anyone who is involved if found guilty but I fear this case will end up like Samjhuta Express incident in which Initially Pakistan was accused and blamed but at the end it turned out to be an Indian Army Colonel who was Involved in it. (its my personal view and don't take it as a Fact or 100 % sure scenario, i may be wrong at least this time)

You may or may not agree with me but few things are clear from the above incident.

1. There is thorough investigation of any terrorist incidents in India.
2. Anyone responsible for carrying out terrorist attacks, irrespective of personal belief are prosecuted.
3. Even a senior Government servant is not spared and publicly held to task
4. Indian judicial system is just.
5. Irrespective of initial assessment, the truth is found otherwise, is publicly accepted

Not only that, there are reports, that the same people are being investigated for other unsolved terrorist attacks.

Indeed, it was a shock for India, when this investigation details were released because, it was totally unexpected. But Indians have accepted this realty.

But, if you accept the above, then you also need to accepts other investigation reports, which have led investigators to conclude Pakistani hands. Isn’t it?

 

[Kasrkin]

Guys. This writer is confused, and has absolutely no military credentials or understanding. The Indians are decades away from implementing Cold Start, and that is according to enthusiastic estimates. The Indians lack the orientation, the equipment, the sufficiently skilled officers (even average grade officers), the forward facilities, the infrastructure, the coordination, the communication and the political inclination.

This idiot has no idea what Cold Start even is. This guy should be ashamed for posting crap without going through it. The Cold Start has been designed to ensure a war with Pakistan that does not cross the nuclear umbrella. It is designed to hurt the Pakistani military by ceasing limited territory of no more than 50 miles in country at five randomly chosen points along the border to be used as a bartering chip once an inevitable ceasefire is in place. But it is in no way designed or capable of ensuring a ‘regime’ change or ‘crumbling’ of Pakistani military forces as this writer seems to think, far from it. Cold Start is primarily designed to be a psychological blow, not a military one…given the fact that it has finally dawned upon the Indians that Pakistan cannot be ‘crushed’ or ‘destroyed’ militarily.

Chances for escalation are there, but not yet because as of right now the Indians are not ready for Cold Start. According to one estimate the Indians only process 10% of the number of self propelled artillery pieces they will be requiring to implement Cold Start. The IAF so far as been completely unwilling to compromise on its own doctrine in order to give way to Cold Start. The Indian Strike Corps have not been dissolved as required per the plan either…and it will take them a good 3 weeks to arrive like they did last time. Plenty of time for diplomacy to neutralize the situation or for Pakistan to bomb them to hell, make appropriate flanking moves, counter-deployments and fortifications, etc.

Bluntly put, India simply does not have the ‘rapid deployment’ forces capable of mounting attacks along Pakistan’s ‘entire border’ or ensuring the collapse of its military like this idiot seems to elude to. India doesn’t even have the ‘rapid deployment’ forces capable of pursuing the much less ambitious objectives envisioned by Cold Start. Furthermore this jack seems to think that IAF strikes alone can ‘annihilate’ Pakistani formations in Pakistani territory and Azad Kashmir, has he read nothing about the 2006 Hezbollah-Israeli War? A month of bombardment and the IDF/AF of all air forces with complete air superiority barely scratched 7% of Hezbollah infrastructure. And here there is IAF up against PAF and PA air defense wiping out the PA within the limited time frame of Cold Start?

Like I said, no military credentials or competence…just a few fancy words, a pen and loads of confidence.

 

[Thebignag]

Dear Metalfalcon, some of my comments against your views

But there is a strong criticism on Muhammad bin Qasim who brought Islam to India, Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah as you have mentioned above, Tippu Sultan who is accused of ill treating Hindus in Indian History books, in fact he had Hindu generals in His Army and even french People admired him for that. Any how we are thought in our schools what suits best our national agenda.

Your perception is incorrect. In fact, Tipu Sultan is highly regarded in India and there has been a maga- TV serial on his life, which ran for over one year, with high viewership in a mainstream channel. You might google Tipu sultan serial to get more details to your satisfaction.

I Know Muslims have their own Law in India but that does not mean we donthave any law in Pakistan, Pakistan is going trough crisis but our Judiciary used to be very strong and Fair.

In my post, it was not implied that Pakistan do not have rule of Law. What was implied and you might have missed is that, In secular India, Minority communities have special rights, and certain special Islamic laws have been incorporated, keeping the Islamic traditions in mind, so that a common law, do not hinder the way of life of a Muslim. When I mentioned even Pakistan don’t have it, I wanted to emphasize that, as per Indian law, without breaking any civil laws, a Muslim can have a Islamic way of life as per Islamic traditions.

Regarding killing of Muslims, Please not that in Pakistan no Body is called on Religious basis either they are killed on political basis, Racial, Provincial or Materialistic basis, Sectarian violence prevails in few cities only. But on the other hand Muslims in India are targeted only on Religious basis.

I agree with you. I used the word Muslims, in response to your view in your earlier post that Muslims are mistreated in India. Never in Mainstream Media is the world Muslim Terrorist or Hindu terrorist used in India. When two groups have a clash, it is mentioned as communal clash. In fact, if you would have noticed, in Indian mainstream media, two words are used one is terrorists and the other is militants. There is a subtle difference, which is strictly maintained. Attackers in Kashmir are called militants, as they target symbols of Indian establishment. Where as people who conducts bomb blasts targeting civilians are termed terrorist. So Samjhauta incident perpetrators, like the Mumbai attack perpetrators are called terrorists.


There are many Misconceptions and Misunderstanding on both the sides and we need to solve them through proper dialogue.

I totally agree with you on the above

Indian Threats has united Pakistani nation and Pakistan stood to the challenge but it doesn't mean that Pakistan is gaining many things because of this war hysteria with India. On the contrary India is gaining more as Compare to Pakistan.

I can appreciate your above perceptions. But, let me put across certain facts and then we can re-look at your perceptions.


1.) India is gaining Sympathy from many countries around the globe.

True. Indian diplomatic efforts has yielded results. But more than India’s diplomatic efforts, Many foreigners lost their lives in the Mumbai Carnage.

2.) India wants Pakistan to be declared a terrorist state so that India can hide her terrorists activities in Kashmir and this will also give India a chance to attack Pakistan.

4.) India wants to get rid of Pakistan right now because Pakistan is weakest at this moment because of internal affairs, war on terror and Political instability and India don't want to waste this opportunity.

For the last 6 to 8 years, your army have been involved in western front. India maintained ceasefire at your eastern front, without taking any advantage. Even today, there have not been any significant troop movements. Don’t you think that India could have exploited much more weak moments in this period? But India have not. Two days back the Kashmiri population elected Omar Abdullah as their Chief Minister. More than 60 percent of Kashmiris participated in this election. Pakistani Part of Kashmir, have never had the luxury of electing their rulers. A PM is appointed by Islamabad. Isn’t it?


3.) India wants to behave like USA and attack Pakistani areas claiming them to be terrorist hideouts and safe houses.

India, if that was a goal, could have done it by now, without warning the targets. Today, if India attacks, the likelihood of the targets bing hit is almost nil. India, respects Pakistan’s sovereignty but wants Pakistan to exercise it sovereign control in it’s own territories.


5.) Soon after Mumbai attacks India Blamed Pakistan for that and there were ideas of Surgical Strikes on Pakistan, As tensions were at the peak India needed just one more attack like mumbai as an excuse to attack Pakistan. ( I read this in an article in newspaper)

Most Indians do not want any conflict with Pakistan. It do not want to take any military actions across the border, but wants wants Pakistan to exercise it sovereign control and its writ in it’s own territories. And hence the massive diplomatic pressures being mounted on Pakistan to take action. If Pakistan is seen to be taking actions against India’s concern, even if there is another attack, India may not take military action ( My firm belief it will not )

However, if Pakistan do not take actions, India will be compelled to strike, these terrorist elements. I an convinced, any strike that India ma carry out ( most unlikely ) would be against terrorist infrastructure and not against Pakistani civilian or Military.

But, I as an Indian sincerely hope that it does not come to that stage ever. I am convinced that your Government will take sufficient actions against the terrorists, once the dossier and evidence provided by India and other countries are studied.

But, as an Indian, I am curious, does it not make more sense for you to bring to task, these terrorist elements, who have been targeting Pakistani citizen as well?

(N.B. Aaj Tak reference was a joke )

 

[metalfalcon]

In my post there is no insult mention about Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah. As mentioned in my post. He has an appropriate place in Indian history and his contribution to the freedom struggle is being taught in Indian schools. In my post neither there is any mention of Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah, demanding any Posts, to remain quite. In my post, I had mentioned that many a times, I have felt that if only Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah was offered again offered the post of premiership to alley the concerns of undivided Indian’s Muslim, the partition, might have been avoided. And the subsequent bloodsheds, which continues till today. May be you and I need to read each other history book to be more objective. Do guide me to online history documents that might be available.

As i said before Quaid-e-Azam fought for his nation not for his personal benefits and if you say we could have avoided Pakistan by giving him any high post you are absolutely wrong, and i consider this as an insult to our Quaid because it sounds like a Bribe isn't it. well you have your Idea and we have our own, The best thing to do is forget about the past think about present and future

I can not debate on the above, as there are two histories, we are discussing here. But, as on today, the Indian state guarantees equal rights and obligations to all it’s citizen, irrespective of their personal beliefs. But rest assured, He has his rightfull place in Indian history and some of his decendents, who are in India continues to live a dignified life.

You are right about that and one of the grand grandson of Quaid-e-Azam is in love with Pretty Zinta. hahahaha its true mann and one thing more he is not a muslim but a parsi.

You may or may not agree with me but few things are clear from the above incident.

1. There is thorough investigation of any terrorist incidents in India.
2. Anyone responsible for carrying out terrorist attacks, irrespective of personal belief are prosecuted.
3. Even a senior Government servant is not spared and publicly held to task
4. Indian judicial system is just.
5. Irrespective of initial assessment, the truth is found otherwise, is publicly accepted

Indian Judiciary is one of the best in the region and although Decisions from courts take years to come but they are really good for the people and Justice is done in the end. Otherwise India could have easily hidden the facts about Colonel Pruhit and no one would have knew about it.

But, if you accept the above, then you also need to accepts other investigation reports, which have led investigators to conclude Pakistani hands. Isn’t it?

We will cross check and i am sure about GoP they will take action if anyone is found guilty.

 

[metalfalcon]

Your perception is incorrect. In fact, Tipu Sultan is highly regarded in India and there has been a maga- TV serial on his life, which ran for over one year, with high viewership in a mainstream channel. You might google Tipu sultan serial to get more details to your satisfaction.

Well again history is a mystery forget about it think about present.

In my post, it was not implied that Pakistan do not have rule of Law. What was implied and you might have missed is that, In secular India, Minority communities have special rights, and certain special Islamic laws have been incorporated, keeping the Islamic traditions in mind, so that a common law, do not hinder the way of life of a Muslim. When I mentioned even Pakistan don’t have it, I wanted to emphasize that, as per Indian law, without breaking any civil laws, a Muslim can have a Islamic way of life as per Islamic traditions.

I know that Muslims have special law in India but in case of Pakistan.... Pakistan is a Muslim Country and its Law covers whole of Pakistan BUT we do have some exceptions for Hindus and Christians who are in Minority so i don't see a huge difference in Indian and Pakistani Laws.

No constitution In the world discriminates even one of its Citizen but problem comes during the Implementation and thats the case in India sometimes but not Always.

I

used the word Muslims, in response to your view in your earlier post that Muslims are mistreated in India. Never in Mainstream Media is the world Muslim Terrorist or Hindu terrorist used in India. When two groups have a clash, it is mentioned as communal clash. In fact, if you would have noticed, in Indian mainstream media, two words are used one is terrorists and the other is militants. There is a subtle difference, which is strictly maintained. Attackers in Kashmir are called militants, as they target symbols of Indian establishment. Where as people who conducts bomb blasts targeting civilians are termed terrorist. So Samjhauta incident perpetrators, like the Mumbai attack perpetrators are called terrorists.

Well Peculiar behavior also exists sometimes but as i have said before i don't want to discuss the treatment of Muslims in India as This topic has been discussed Millions of times on this Forum and What i Think its Indian Internal Issue but we do feel Pinch as a "Muslim Ummah" as we are feeling the Pinch by Israeli Atrocities on GAZA right now.

The topic of our discussion is Indo-Pak Relations and Strategic Depth. Right?

For the last 6 to 8 years, your army have been involved in western front. India maintained ceasefire at your eastern front, without taking any advantage. Even today, there have not been any significant troop movements. Don’t you think that India could have exploited much more weak moments in this period? But India have not. Two days back the Kashmiri population elected Omar Abdullah as their Chief Minister. More than 60 percent of Kashmiris participated in this election. Pakistani Part of Kashmir, have never had the luxury of electing their rulers. A PM is appointed by Islamabad. Isn’t it?

Well that was my Personal view and let me tell you that Azad Kashmir (or according to you P.O.K) has elected their Prime minister just yesterday and Federal Govt didn't even bothered to interfere in their Assembly issue (PM is not appointed by Islamabad), the old Prime minister was removed and new prime minister has taken oath, Kashmiris on our side of the border are more involved in Politics and have more freedom and Especially unlike in your case no body here Boycotts the election.... Yeah yeah i know the turn over has been high even after calls for the boycott but the issue is there are people who are annoyed with you.

Most Indians do not want any conflict with Pakistan. It do not want to take any military actions across the border, but wants wants Pakistan to exercise it sovereign control and its writ in it’s own territories. And hence the massive diplomatic pressures being mounted on Pakistan to take action. If Pakistan is seen to be taking actions against India’s concern, even if there is another attack, India may not take military action ( My firm belief it will not )

We also don't want war we are fed up with deaths of Pakistani citizens on daily basis we are taking this cancer out of our body and you know cancer is not that easy to root out it will take time and patience and sacrifices.

India should help Pakistan in taking out Terrorists Instead of showing Military Muscles and Attitude. there are some polite ways to ask Pakistan to crackdown on these non state actors but India is trying to make link between these terrorists and ISI which is not the right approach at all.

But, as an Indian, I am curious, does it not make more sense for you to bring to task, these terrorist elements, who have been targeting Pakistani citizen as well?

We have lost more Citizens than you have we have lost ore Soldiers than you have we have lost our leader Benazir to this menace, Do you see any reason that we are not committed. (Please don't bring the American blame of not doing Enough in our discussion).

 

[metalfalcon]

(N.B. Aaj Tak reference was a joke )

Sure AAJ Tak is the biggest Joke after Star News.

 

[Subsonic]

There are so many misconceptions among us about each other. Tipu Sultan was a hero in Indian history and please do not believe if any source in Pakistan portrays him otherwise. Vijay Malya paid millions of pounds to a museum in London just to relcaim Tipu's sword and we have now it in India.

Mr.Jinnah was never portrayed in Indian history as an anti-hero. Irrespective of the history, please ponder over the following in next para and you might gain a new perspective.I apologize in advance if it offends anyone. I have enormous respect for Quaid-e-Azam stemmed from the history taught to me in Indian schools.

If Mr.Jinnah was concerned about the Muslims in British India and feared that they will be oppressed under Hindu majority, why he did not rally only the muslims for a separate independent muslim state against British, right from the begining, without joining forces with Indian National Congress? Please note that he was not only the leader who happened to be a Muslim, there were so many prominent muslim leaders like Maulana ji, who enjoyed equal support and stature.What was the quantified contribution of muslims in the freedom struggle vis-a-vis Hindus? How many Hindus were arrested, tortured and killed during the freedom struggle vis-a-vis Muslims? Nobody bothered about the Hindu Muslim equation during the struggle, casue they just didn't care being Hindu or Muslim, they were Indians fighting for freedom from a colonial opressor.Why did this idea of separate state for Muslims come up in the fag end of the freedom struggle? What exactly made Mr.Jinnah fear for his fellow Muslims under Hindu majority? Was there any precedence in the past pointing to the fact of oppression before by Hindus? What did Mr.Jinna or his past generations loose being muslims in British India? Please remember, he was one of the smartest and most successful lawyers in Bombay high court and was known for his smart wit and eloquence.From numerous history books I have read during all these years about freedom struggle, I am sure Mr.Jinnah never contemplated this division during the freedom struggle.

Friends, make no mistake, the evil policies of British instigated Hindu Muslim sentiments in the mind of Mr.Jinnah , resulted in brutal bloodshed, laid foundation for perennial bitterness. Neither Mr.Jinnah nor Gandhi wished for this kind of hostility between us. Lets not look at history thru a prism of newly acquired nationalism. We have humiliated British and this is how they repay us.We were one, and we were divided. Whos purpose did this serve? I am sure it served neither Mr.Jinna's not Gandhi's. I leave this to you to decide.

 

[Yoni Tantra]

The bigger picture is more important. We should not miss the woods for the trees. There are other measures that India can take, which may not be provided on a plater by the " Breaking News" channels for Indian public consumption to gloat over their evening meals infront of the TV. Surgical Strikes is a misnomer. Any military overt action, accross the border, is an act of war. India, will also have to pay the price for a strike, which, at this moment will have negative yield because of colateral damages, as the targets are well aware of this threat. In addition, It is not Pakistan citizen, but the terrorists and their handlers who needs to be taken out. A military strike is the last thing that will secure India. But it will definitely distablise the nacent democratic process. It is not in the interest of India or Pakistan.


PM Gujral's, goodwill and assesment went all wrong. His policy should be reversed. The Covert Offensive capabilities of RAW should be reinstated immediately, if not already have been. ( An eye for an eye, and as Shourie says both eyes for an eye, is required. )

If our nation has cracks, which can be exploited, so do Pakistan. In addition, to sectarian conflicts, they have a civil war, in their community, which has been running for more than 1400 years, which should can be suitably exploited. And unlike India, these groups are armed. Encourage the extremists and terrorists kill each other. ( This will solve some of India's problem, but, might spiral Pakistan into anarchy.... )

India significant economic power and needs to used effectively. In addition, India should try to reach out to the common man in Pakistan, specially, the youth, and allow them to recognise and appriciate that Peace and Education is offering their counterparts, in India a better quality of life. Stupid TRP chasing " Breaking News" channels should me made accountable for editoralizing news or should be forced to to drop the word "news" from their names.

Democratic, stable, economically strong pakistan is beneficial for India, more than the Pakistani...

NSA, Duranni is already a casualty...