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Walls and Bridges

So as we are thinking about the focus of the thread, and it's interesting that it's of more interest to our Indian forum members than the Pakistani (possibly because Indian forum members can articulate, form sentences and paragraphs) -- the problem between Pakistan and India is that Pakistan think Kashmir is a problem between them, and the Indians think the problem between Pakistan a India is that Pakistan are from Mars (not quite from Mars but there about)

It's really interesting because if Indians decide they will not play Kashmir, where would that leave Pakistan?

@muse;
You have articulated an interesting and credible pov in the underlined part.

Undoubtedly, Pakistan may think that their problem with India is solely Kashmir. But on the other side (to which I probably belong) thinks that Kashmir is only a small (but significant) issue to be overcome among the plethora of issues to be addressed. In India far more attention is being addressed (as it OUGHT to be) towards tackling inequality, ignorance, poverty and stuff like that. (with some-what slow and stilted results IMO). Compared to that; the question always is "Kashmir kiss khet ki mooli hai, bhai"???

Plus the thinking in India has veered around (quite a long time ago) that Kashmir is a Status-Quo or Stalemate situation AND WILL REMAIN SO for as long as anybody can foresee.
Consider that a common "Paindoo in a Pagri" (that reminds me of @Spaklingway's avatar) in say Orissa or Karnataka states have to confront more pressing problems in their every-day lives. So would he (that Paindoo) or I be condemned for thinking "What the hell is Pakistan's singular obsession with Kashmir all about"??

So; only to that extent (underlined above): India thinks that Pakistan is from Mars or Jupiter or one of the newly named 3 planets in the solar system!!!

Muse; in post #10 you made an accurate point. If only Pakistan had not disowned Jinnah-saab's legacy, then Malaysia (e.g.) and Pakistan could have been no different from each other.

So now please do tell me: Where does all this leave Pakistan?
 
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2 by not playing at all might also more or less result the same as the first and keep Pak India relations on one point agenda of Kashmir dispute and thus continue to provide the virtual feed to our military and religious parties as a motivation. LeT and all its clones will continue to work and might succeed in causing a major armed conflict between the two countries.

This is what i dont get. Why can Pakistan not keep its people and army in check?
Indians dont like the fact that Tibet is occupied by China. Infact we all hate it and would absolutely love if China were to withdraw.

That does not mean that Indians are killing Chinese in Tibet. We dont even allow ethnic Tibetans who are in refuge in India to do terrorist activities in China.

So why the heck does Pakistan and Pakistani's throw their hands up in the air saying that 'unless Kashmir is resolved' there would be terrorist activities in Kashmir. Its your country, stop the damned LeT and your terrorists.

Unless ofcourse - Pakistan wishes to keep this cross border 'moral support' up. In which case we are back to square one, because India also retaliates albeit more intelligently.
 
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@muse;

Muse; in post #10 you made an accurate point. If only Pakistan had not disowned Jinnah-saab's legacy, then Malaysia (e.g.) and Pakistan could have been no different from each other.

So now please do tell me: Where does all this leave Pakistan?

You may have misunderstood - The Quaid e Azam's vision and that of the Jamaat e islami's vision of Pakistan are irreconcilable - Please read that post again and you will note that I refer to the the Islamization project in Pakistan and Malaysia - the SLAMIZATION PROJECT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE Quaid e Azam.

I hope this has resolved the misunderstanding of the post # 10
 
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I wish if I would understand that right

1 India not play as Pakistan wants
2 or not play at all?
3 or play in a way to close the matter once for all?

I think thats what is happening right now and is resulting in military stand off along the borders of disputed territory. so the status quo shall continue?

2 by not playing at all might also more or less result the same as the first and keep Pak India relations on one point agenda of Kashmir dispute and thus continue to provide the virtual feed to our military and religious parties as a motivation. LeT and all its clones will continue to work and might succeed in causing a major armed conflict between the two countries.

3 if the inconceivable happens then moderates n both countries will have more chance to improve the relations far better than the token bus/ train service and occasional conferences in 5 star hotels.

ok your turn I didnt get it

Lets deal with the highlighted part:

Because Pakistan have chosen to not pay attention to the economy, it has chosen to play paraplegic, that is to say that it has chosen a course of action dictated by the fact that there is no foundation to take Pakistan seriously - No economy, no serious armed forces, in fact were it not for money from abroad (read US) the army's limited operation is not possible, further the dependence on tactical nukes indicated that the armed forces and the government have given up on even the hope of offering greater resources to the conventional side of the equation, to be taken seriously by the Indian. So as a consequence of this disparity that Pakistan have imposed on themselves they are left with Proxies - The proxies are a nuisance for the Indian, not a significant threat, rather they are significant threat to Pakistan.

So, India will an incentive avoid coming to terms on Kashmir, this incentive is provided by Pakistan.

Now as to option 3 -- that can only be a serious option if the Pakistan, has not only an economy but has internal political cohesion and strong internal security ------ and since this is not a serious option for Pakistan, Mr, Hilaly suggests discretion is the better part of valor.
 
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You may have misunderstood - The Quaid e Azam's vision and that of the Jamaat e islami's vision of Pakistan are irreconcilable - Please read that post again and you will note that I refer to the the Islamization project in Pakistan and Malaysia - the SLAMIZATION PROJECT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE Quaid e Azam.

I hope this has resolved the misunderstanding of the post # 10

Please excuse me if I gave the impression that I saw Jinnah saab's vision and JEI's vision as being identical. They are (IMO) as similar as "Chalk and Cheese". Jinnah saab saw Pakistan as a country where the interests of Muslims could be preserved and protected. Was that an "Islamic Vision"?

Otherwise the Islamisation Projects in Malaysia and Pakistan seem to have yielded differing results.
 
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Thank you folks for having an excellent debate...please continue..its an interesting read and keep me awake 2:00 am in the morning....
 
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I believe it is precisely this large size and diversity which was India's savior.

Pakistan is small enough that the Sindhi and Punjabi feudals have reached a mutual understanding. You loot today, and let me have my turn tomorrow. The tragedy is that the army joined the fun instead of breaking up this devil's compact. The Bengalis saw the writing on the wall and walked.

In India, however, it is hard for one or two regional/ethnic power brokers to dominate the whole country, so everybody has to play nice.

I beg to differ....
I believe that India's socialist policies close to its inception is what helped "save" us (relatively speaking)...

Mind you, I have heard you criticize "feudals" and "landlords" in every post on this thread my friend, but havent once heard you mention creating land reforms to defang the strongholds of the same...

Unlike Indian land reforms act, Pakistan fostered feudalism and still continues to suffer from it....Wouldnt that be a start?

And I dont see how size and diversity can be a savior......In fact it causes more problems...At least in the case of Pakistan, homogeneity can be loaded on the back of religion if not ethnicity, tribe, language etc..


PS: Im typing in a hurry so sorry if my articulation of thoughts sucks..
 
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the Islamisation Projects in Malaysia and Pakistan seem to have yielded differing results.

Indeed, and it's because the Islamization in Pakistan was a Jamaati exercise, informed as the Jamaati vision is, of a combination of anti-colonialist Marxist narrative and it's value system, applied to Islam as a political force, devoid of any values inherent in pluralist Islam.
 
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I believe that India's socialist policies close to its inception is what helped "save" us (relatively speaking)...

That's putting the cart before the horse. The question is what facilitated a national consensus to work in the nation's interests rather than regional interests?

It may be as simple as the fact that Nehru lived long enough to do the needful, while Jinnah didn't (or couldn't while he lived).

Mind you, I have heard you criticize "feudals" and "landlords" in every post on this thread my friend, but havent once heard you mention creating land reforms to defang the strongholds of the same...

Unlike Indian land reforms act, Pakistan fostered feudalism and still continues to suffer from it....Wouldnt that be a start?

Of course, everyone knows that land reforms are the way forward. Some of us wouldn't mind if the entire feudal lineages were summarily expelled from Pakistan.

The problem in Pakistan is that all the centers of power are controlled by the feudals or their proxies. The only institution which can challenge their domination is the army and the generals were bought off early in the game with lots of cash and no questions asked.

To my (and others') dismay, even the one ray of hope, Imran Khan, and his party has been infested with smooth talking feudals portraying themselves as 'reformed'.

And I dont see how size and diversity can be a savior......In fact it causes more problems...At least in the case of Pakistan, homogeneity can be loaded on the back of religion if not ethnicity, tribe, language etc..

Diversity or, specifically, mutual mistrust, is a savior because it limits the extent of regional cabals. The Tamils and Keralites may form a cabal, but it is unlikely the Bengalis or Punjabis would sign on, and vice versa. Therefore, since it is hard to form a cabal with critical mass, no successful cabal can form.
 
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If Friends read Mohsin Hamid's article again, they will note a warning - a concern for the coming months - khair, it's inyteresting that none of you guys wanted to pick up on that - why not?








Our founders and guardians


Zafar Hilaly
Tuesday, February 26, 2013
Print Edition




A fellow-columnist has asked why “if we had to go through this (the mess that Pakistan has become today) did we go through the trouble of Partition?” (February 22). Let’s begin to answer the question by wandering a little into ‘alternative history’.

I suspect that at the time of Partition our fathers looked backwards through the wrong end of the telescope, saw the steady diminishment of the Muslim community, projected the decline into the future and decided Pakistan in the mutilated form offered up by the British would do. They must have sensed that the unaccomadative ascendancy of the Hindu – Congress-style nationalism wasn’t as broad as it was ‘Hindu’ – would eventually have forced the separation of the Muslim majority provinces from the main body of India and subcontinental borders would have looked much like they do today. The fault lines were clear and the denouement unavoidable. Anyway, for a thousand years India had either been ruled by Muslims or the British and Muslims did not savour the idea of living permanently under Hindu-majority rule.

So, viewed thus, Partition was not only inevitable but all for the good. True, what followed 1947 was not, and for that the country’s founders and ‘guardians’ must share the blame.

From the outset, the Founders seemed confused. One lot wanted a state based exclusively on religion and another supported traditional western liberalism. Jinnah happily found no conflict in the (co)existence of both strands in the body politic of the new state, but he wasn’t around for long.

Meanwhile, the ‘lay’ versus ‘religion’ debate raged and the Founders ignored the social backwardness of the regions Pakistan inherited and missed the danger of rural magnates/feudals running the show and ‘backwardness’ taking root.

The absence of political platforms at the time of Partition compounded the problem, because it meant we had to try either institutional rule (by the soft/hard face of the services) or personal rule, albeit, sometimes under a party flag, as no other platforms were available.

But nature abhors a vacuum. Political evolution cannot be denied. If the trees don’t grow, the undergrowth will. People need local leadership – non-family, non-community – in urbanised settings, where the relationship has to be vertical with the state, rather than horizontal, with the community structure. So in urbanised Pakistan these relations developed spontaneously, outside the community, outside the rule of law, and outside the power of the state.

Why then did our ICS Guardians – bright sparks that they claimed to be – have nothing to offer in the crucial early days by way of a plan or blueprint to tackle these issues? Because they had little intellectual heft and were not visionaries or statesmen. That was not why they had been recruited; or to be thinkers or ‘bookish,’ although living by the book was definitely a requirement. Their training made them unsuited to examine ‘national’ problems and devise countrywide ‘modern’ solutions. It made them sit on the fence with respect to things that did not strictly concern their operational ambit directly, and wait for the lead from their colonial masters. Except that the latter had departed and their new masters, after Jinnah, were clueless, and visionless to boot.

But, I suspect, they thought they could manage an extension of the Raj, till brighter grain grew. They never saw the country bumpkin becoming the Raj, nor the flooding in of hard Islam at the level of the state (that subsequently Bhutto allowed and Zia made concrete). They did not think rural rustics would have much of a hand in shaping society. A feeling that was reinforced by the Quaid’s own obvious distaste for the ‘backwardness’ on view which, he believed, would soon give way to a state based on ‘modern’ lines.

Moreover, our Guardians were a condescending bunch and in awe of themselves. They felt they had little to learn. Even among the Founders they had no time for anyone except Jinnah. Privately, they regarded Liaquat Ali Khan as an uninspiring mediocrity, and although they viewed Suharwardy as a near-equal, he was considered far too wayward, unreliable and unscrupulous; in other words, too much of a politician for their taste. As for the rest they held them in closely guarded contempt.


Three fundamental issues bedevilled the evolution of an integrated Pakistani state in 1947. Inequality among the provinces in economic growth and in regional development; absence of a national consensus in the role of religion in state matters and lack of definition of the state’s responsibility for the kind of economic growth that would be inclusive and ‘popular.’ All three were transparently the core issues Pakistan had to address at its inception but did not, and hence all three remain but are more challenging now because their resolution is more tangled as they are being increasingly contested by different protagonists.

So what of the future? The future, said a wise man, is made of much the same stuff as the present, and even if one is optimistic one can’t exactly be joyful at the prospect before us. In fact, the future looks threatening rather than inviting.

Poverty is endemic and for the foreseeable future too the majority will only be able to eat enough to stave off death. There are no signs that the shoddy poverty of the goths and bastis, the melancholy poverty of the better paid who have to save every rupee to provide the basic wants for their children and the angry poverty of what someone termed ‘the cultural proletarians’ who earn less than unskilled workers (as policemen and petty office workers) will end any time soon. It will take a herculean effort by wise planners and infinite patience before all that improves.

The other evil genie that will remain with us is ignorance. The majority of Pakistanis are functionally illiterate. Even the undeniably literate are seldom proficient; and given the low priority governments of all hues have placed on education nothing is about to change soon. The periodic emergence of an academic genius or two, like an Abdus Salam, is just a distraction.

Yet another evil spirit is injustice – the spawning ground of extremism. People here only go to court when they know they are in the wrong and in order to let the case drag on interminably from one postponement to next. The aim is to pauperise your opponent and force him to accept a compromise. The poor will remain terrified to approach the (lower) courts where only strength, weight and resources allow a safe engagement with the law.

Similarly, bureaucrats will remain ignorant, indifferent, overbearing, insolent and corrupt. Good bureaucrats will not be rewarded and the good, bad and indifferent will all follow the same predetermined careers from beginning to end. All will get the same raises of salary on the same day, be promoted on the same day and pensioned off at the same age – barring the prime ministers favourites, who will get an extension. Nobody will ever be fired for inefficiency.

Meanwhile, fear and violence will continue to dominate lives and rob an honest man of his virtues and a firm man of his will and cause those who can afford it to flee. Money, honour, prestige, politics and the desperate struggle for power will exact their daily human sacrifices. Violent death will continue to lurk in the shadows and, considering fanatics and bigots are multiplying, so will honour killings and religion-based violence.

So the question is not why we had to have Partition but why the fruits of independence promised in such abundance have eluded us for so long and will continue to do so till we reinvent ourselves. And of that, fat chance




 
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If Friends read Mohsin Hamid's article again, they will note a warning - a concern for the coming months - khair, it's inyteresting that none of you guys wanted to pick up on that - why not?

The thinly veiled threat to India by increasingly disgruntled Pakistanis becoming militant and taking to jihad? I think I did cover that though I cannot be sure.
 
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The thinly veiled threat to India by increasingly disgruntled Pakistanis becoming militant and taking to jihad? I think I did cover that though I cannot be sure.


Try again - he says something about the coming months - what's a major event --- what kinds of incidents could even "delay" this event?
 
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Try again - he says something about the coming months - what's a major event --- what kinds of incidents could even "delay" this event?

The US pulling out of Afghanistan?

And into Pakistan?
 
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Pakistan is a reality much like Israel and the United States and even Germany or Italy perhaps it has shaky basis to be here but we are here and that is the purpose of our existence: to exist. Now coming to Mr Zafar's article I would like to point out that his time and era was the classical decay of the modern age. Things, in their view, were static and liner: e.g. either we are friends or enemies/ at peace or war or about to be at war. This sense in the present time is faulty, take the example of Britian and France: both of them had territories they contested (Brittany being a prime example) both fought wars (100 Years War) both challenged each other's legitimacy (in the Medieval age the throne) yet as times evolved both came to be allies. Their hatred for each other is comparable to our rivilary yet things changed.

They need to. Nations do not exist in vacuums, do they? New circumstances dictate new strategies. For us, the time is here. The conflict with India has cost Pakistan much more and it is reasonable to think that there are other ways to counter the Indian power and conventional military strenght is a relic. The new generation is synthesising these facts into their psyche and either in a bad way or a good way these will show in the future.
 
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