Grand Historian
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As we all know the trolling by nationalistic Vietnamese and the counter trolling by Chinese members have gone on for quite a while,today I will address the root of the cause ie various rumors that are spread throughout the internet and taken as the truth while in reality they are nothing more than nonsense.
List of nationalist Vietnamese distortions:
1.There was always a Vietnamese identity.
2. Chinese are inherently evil.
3. Vietnamese civilized the Chinese with the Dong Son civilization.
4.Any other Sinitic language other than Mandarin is apparently non Han.
5.Southern Han Chinese are only composed of Baiyue.
6.Chinese sources should not be used.
7.Nanyue and Zhao Tuo are Vietnamese.
8.Vietnamese invented gunpowder.
9.All Baiyue are Vietnamese.
10.Han Chinese were slaves of Manchus and Mongols.
11.Vietnamese myths prove that Vietnamese ruled Southern China.
My answers to these questions.
1.Frankly,all nationalities are guilty of this attempting to project an a present day identity on ancient people is ultimately flawed as we don't know what the ancients viewed themselves except for surviving books.
First off there is cultural discontinuity between Dong Son and Dai Viet as bronze drums were viewed as barbaric.
The Unimportance of Bronze Drums in Việt History | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog
Notice how Ly Bi named his kingdom Van Xuan not Dai Viet,and Southern Chinese individuals Feng An,Lin Shihong and Liu Yan used it as the name of their kingdom prior to the Vietnamese.
The Last of the Hundred Việt/Yue? | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog
What further clouds this issue is that during the Nguyen dynasty Vietnamese were called themselves "Han" and that they clearly worshiped "Chinese" figures.
The Hán-Vietnamese?? (More Evils of Quốc Ngữ) | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog
http://leminhkhai.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/the-nguyễn-dynasty’s-miếu-lịch-dại-dế-vương/ngữ/
The Chinese were no better throughout history,though that is a different issue which I will provide information on request.
2.Due to the propaganda of an eternal struggle between the Chinese and Vietnamese and due to recent events we see members demonizing the Chinese as a whole.
China has at least 1.3 billion people and more overseas to tar an entire ethnic group as evil or good is ridiculous,people should be judged by merit not their ethnicity.
3a. I don't know what is more ridiculous the idea that Dong Son is uniquely Vietnamese or that it influenced all the way towards the Central Plains.
Thanks to Wholegrain for this information.
Some scholars argue that Dong Son is Vietnamese and Vietnamese only,I beg to differ.
Among the early Daic states were those of Van Lang, located northwest of Hanoi where the Red, Black, and Clear rivers merge in Vinh Phu province from Arts of Asia.
This early date is highly doubtful, but it is clear that the Hung kings were Daic speakers (and not Viet). In this regard, Chamberlain (1998: 38-39) points out that an important Chinese source, Jao Tsung-i, uses a character to designate the Hung from Textiles from the Daic people of Vietnam.
While by no means are these sources absolute or free from bias this shows that the Dong Son origins are debatable.
3b. A claim that is often repeated is that Dong Son drums are representative of Vietnamese influence.
As we can see from these graphs there was a separate tradition in modern day Yunnan province,and also that it eventually spread towards SEA islands and Guangxi.
If bronze drums are best representation of Dong Son culture then why isn't it found in Fujian and other Southern provinces,or even the Central Plains.
From: Who Invented the Bronze Drum? Nationalism,Politics, and a Sino- Vietnamese Archaeological Debate of the 1970s and 1980s:
A bronze drum was found in an ancient tomb in northern Viet Nam. 14C dating indicated that the tomb was from 2480 ± 100 years before the present,or around 530 B.C. pg16
The earliest 14C date established for a bronze drum excavated in China by Chinese scholars is 2640 ± 90 before 1950, or 690 ± 90 B.C. pg 16
Each claim is disputed by either the Vietnamese or the Chinese however this shows that the Yunnan drums and the Vietnamese drums don't see to come from each other.
Moreover, Chinese scholars who support the egret interpretation do not agree that the egret is a symbol of the ancient Vietnamese peasants or the Vietnamese nation. Rather, the bird motif is seen more as the end result of Han Chinese cultural influence. They argued that the egret was considered to be the spirit of the drum in the Central Plains of China,an idea which spread first to the Chu area in southern China, before it was adopted by other ethnic groups living to the south of Chu. pg 18
Feng Hanji, a Chinese archaeologist, did not agree. He believed the motif of the long boat was a reflection of the popular custom of boat racing in southern China.According to Feng, since the boat does not have an outrigger, it could only have been used in rivers or small inner waters like the Dian Lake. Moreover,decorating boats with birds was also an old Chinese tradition. He also believed that the motif might indicate some connections with the Chu (Feng 1974: 5658). pg 19
The two common geometric motifs on bronze drums as shown in Figure 7 are believed to represent clouds and thunder, respectively. According to Chinese scholars, the same motifs can be found on the ancient carved-motif pottery of southern China, as well as the bronze wares of the Central Plains and that, "[the motifs] prove the uniformity and continuity of the cultural development of ancient southern China and the frequent cultural exchange between southern China and the Central Plains" (ZGTY 1988: 154).
So basically Vietnamese scholars argue that Dong Son drum decorations are indigneous while Chinese stress the Huaxia influence.
While I'm not well read in this subject you can clearly see that even the origin of the Dong Son drums are debatable.
4.All Southern Han speak Sinitic languages and there is plenty of evidence that shows that Southern Chinese languages evolved from Old and Middle Chinese.
Though it is noted that by some scholars that Cantonese has a Tai Kadai substrate.
5.This is the claim that is most ridiculous one I've seen so far,there are far too many migrations to count and I can't promise you I can quote all of them.
However I already made a previous thread about it and it generated some good discussion until EastSea joined.
Southern Han Chinese and their relationship with the Baiyue
Basically some summaries of the facts.
a.Chinese themselves documented migrations to the south and have historical records and genealogical records to back it up.
b.The Y haplogroup ratio is quite similar between Northern and Southern Han Chinese.
c.Even if today's Southern Han Chinese are Baiyue they are already Siniczed making them Chinese.
d.Baiyue population was relativly small.
e.Southern China was Siniczed slowly and migrants clustered in the Yangtze basins and the coasts.
6.The veracity of Chinese sources should be determined by who wrote it,when it was written,why was it written,was it written until duress,did the author had anything to gain to write it a certain way etc.
So a case by case basis.
Also the "facts" should be reconciled with archaeological/genealogical/anthropological records.
7a.I will repeat what I stated in a previous thread why Nanyue was Chinese.
a.The founder was from the Chinese warring state of Zhao.
b.The script was derived from China.
c.Nanyue was a vassal of the Han dynasty as recorded in the Shiji ie Nanyue begged for Ming help when Minyue was at its doorstep,sending sons to the capital,not daring to use the title Huangdi.
d.There were plenty of Qin soldiers/convicts/exiles in the population.
e.The culture was as blend of Sino-Baiyue culture.
f. Chinese style bureaucracy .
g.Chinese style military
h.The capital Panyu is in Guangdong not Northern Vietnam.
7b.The Shiji clearly states that Zhao Tuo was from Zhending,Zhao.
南越王尉佗者，真定人也，姓趙氏
史記 : 列傳 : 南越列傳 - 中國哲學書電子化計劃
It is also internationally accepted that Zhao was one the seven warring states of China.
8.I don't even know what to say about this,I'm typing this with tears in my eyes this is classic revisionism at its finest.
If you seriously believe in this claim pick up some Western works and educate yourself.
9.I think I already explained it well enough in previous posts,Yue is a Chinese term nothing more to it.
The Yue also spoke a variety of languages,it would be the Greek equivalent of barbarian.
This doesn't mean the barbarians are all related or even under one rule.
10.Being ruled by a non-Han ethnicity doesn't make you a slave,there were plenty of wealthy Han Chinese in the Yuan and the Qing and plenty of Han Chinese loyalists serving each side.
My ancestor 吳德金 Wu Dejin under the Qing dynasty reached 昭武都尉 a military position in Fuzhou.
Tell me can a bondservant or a slave take the imperial exam and reach that position?
11. Due to resurgent nationalism in East Asia we see many ethnicties cherry picking Chinese texts or rely on dubious sources in an attempt to prove their agenda this is one of them.
a.Chinese sources never mention Xich Quy,Van Lang or Hung Kings.
b.A kingdom as large as Van Lang would have certainly piqued the interest the Chinese warring states but there is no information about them.
c.Vietnamese texts state that Lu Gia the prime minster of Nanyue is from Vietnam,yet Shiji doesn't even record this.
d.Vietnamese texts state that Goujian wanted to make an alliance with the Hung Kings yet there is no mention of them in any Chinese text.
e.The Wu and the Yue did not derive their ancestry from the Hung Kings rather from the Ji family(ie the ruling house of Zhou) for the Wu or Great Yu for the Yue.
f. There is no archaeological evidence that the Hung kings ruled Southern China.
g. Linh nam chich quai was written in 1370 over 1,000 years after Nanyue fell how is a book full of fairy tales supposed to represent history?
h.Southern Han Chinese and minorities have no tales of Van Lang,Xich Quy or the Hung Kings.
i.東夾南海，西抵巴蜀，北至洞庭湖，南至狐猻精國（今占城是也）。
To the East it bordered the Southern sea,the west BaShu to the North Dong Ting Lake and to the South Hu Sun(Champa).
This phrase is used in the Huayang Guozhi showing that it is just a mimicry.
The Huayang guozhi and Early Vietnamese History | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog
j.分國中為十五部（一作郡）：曰越裳、曰交趾、曰朱鳶、曰武寧、曰福祿、日寧海（今南寧處是也）、曰陽泉（一作海）、曰陸海、曰懷驩、曰九真、曰日南、曰真定、曰文郎、曰桂林、曰象郡等部，分歸弟治之。
Van Lang was divided into 15 commanderies:Yuechang,Jiaozhi,Zhuchuan,Wuning,Fulu,Ninghai,Yangquan,Luhai,Huaihuan,Jiuzhen,Rinan,Zhending,Wenlang,Guilin,Xiang,the Hung King's brothers ruled over these lands.
Kham dinh Viet su Thong giam cuong muc even states that its strange that all 15 regions are in Northern Vietnam not Southern China.
k.Even Lac Long Quan and Au Co are based off Chinese tales
Lord Lạc Long, Âu Cơ, and the “Biography of Liu Yi” | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog
l.Phong Chau is a Sui-Tang naming convention thus it could never have existed.
The Problems with “châu” and Phong Châu | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog
In conclusion the Van Lang myth was a flimsy attempt to designate Dai Viet as being an equal to Chinese civilization and is full of rubbish.
List of nationalist Vietnamese distortions:
1.There was always a Vietnamese identity.
2. Chinese are inherently evil.
3. Vietnamese civilized the Chinese with the Dong Son civilization.
4.Any other Sinitic language other than Mandarin is apparently non Han.
5.Southern Han Chinese are only composed of Baiyue.
6.Chinese sources should not be used.
7.Nanyue and Zhao Tuo are Vietnamese.
8.Vietnamese invented gunpowder.
9.All Baiyue are Vietnamese.
10.Han Chinese were slaves of Manchus and Mongols.
11.Vietnamese myths prove that Vietnamese ruled Southern China.
My answers to these questions.
1.Frankly,all nationalities are guilty of this attempting to project an a present day identity on ancient people is ultimately flawed as we don't know what the ancients viewed themselves except for surviving books.
First off there is cultural discontinuity between Dong Son and Dai Viet as bronze drums were viewed as barbaric.
The Unimportance of Bronze Drums in Việt History | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog
Notice how Ly Bi named his kingdom Van Xuan not Dai Viet,and Southern Chinese individuals Feng An,Lin Shihong and Liu Yan used it as the name of their kingdom prior to the Vietnamese.
The Last of the Hundred Việt/Yue? | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog
What further clouds this issue is that during the Nguyen dynasty Vietnamese were called themselves "Han" and that they clearly worshiped "Chinese" figures.
The Hán-Vietnamese?? (More Evils of Quốc Ngữ) | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog
http://leminhkhai.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/the-nguyễn-dynasty’s-miếu-lịch-dại-dế-vương/ngữ/
The Chinese were no better throughout history,though that is a different issue which I will provide information on request.
2.Due to the propaganda of an eternal struggle between the Chinese and Vietnamese and due to recent events we see members demonizing the Chinese as a whole.
China has at least 1.3 billion people and more overseas to tar an entire ethnic group as evil or good is ridiculous,people should be judged by merit not their ethnicity.
3a. I don't know what is more ridiculous the idea that Dong Son is uniquely Vietnamese or that it influenced all the way towards the Central Plains.
Thanks to Wholegrain for this information.
Some scholars argue that Dong Son is Vietnamese and Vietnamese only,I beg to differ.
Among the early Daic states were those of Van Lang, located northwest of Hanoi where the Red, Black, and Clear rivers merge in Vinh Phu province from Arts of Asia.
This early date is highly doubtful, but it is clear that the Hung kings were Daic speakers (and not Viet). In this regard, Chamberlain (1998: 38-39) points out that an important Chinese source, Jao Tsung-i, uses a character to designate the Hung from Textiles from the Daic people of Vietnam.
While by no means are these sources absolute or free from bias this shows that the Dong Son origins are debatable.
3b. A claim that is often repeated is that Dong Son drums are representative of Vietnamese influence.
As we can see from these graphs there was a separate tradition in modern day Yunnan province,and also that it eventually spread towards SEA islands and Guangxi.
If bronze drums are best representation of Dong Son culture then why isn't it found in Fujian and other Southern provinces,or even the Central Plains.
From: Who Invented the Bronze Drum? Nationalism,Politics, and a Sino- Vietnamese Archaeological Debate of the 1970s and 1980s:
A bronze drum was found in an ancient tomb in northern Viet Nam. 14C dating indicated that the tomb was from 2480 ± 100 years before the present,or around 530 B.C. pg16
The earliest 14C date established for a bronze drum excavated in China by Chinese scholars is 2640 ± 90 before 1950, or 690 ± 90 B.C. pg 16
Each claim is disputed by either the Vietnamese or the Chinese however this shows that the Yunnan drums and the Vietnamese drums don't see to come from each other.
Moreover, Chinese scholars who support the egret interpretation do not agree that the egret is a symbol of the ancient Vietnamese peasants or the Vietnamese nation. Rather, the bird motif is seen more as the end result of Han Chinese cultural influence. They argued that the egret was considered to be the spirit of the drum in the Central Plains of China,an idea which spread first to the Chu area in southern China, before it was adopted by other ethnic groups living to the south of Chu. pg 18
Feng Hanji, a Chinese archaeologist, did not agree. He believed the motif of the long boat was a reflection of the popular custom of boat racing in southern China.According to Feng, since the boat does not have an outrigger, it could only have been used in rivers or small inner waters like the Dian Lake. Moreover,decorating boats with birds was also an old Chinese tradition. He also believed that the motif might indicate some connections with the Chu (Feng 1974: 5658). pg 19
The two common geometric motifs on bronze drums as shown in Figure 7 are believed to represent clouds and thunder, respectively. According to Chinese scholars, the same motifs can be found on the ancient carved-motif pottery of southern China, as well as the bronze wares of the Central Plains and that, "[the motifs] prove the uniformity and continuity of the cultural development of ancient southern China and the frequent cultural exchange between southern China and the Central Plains" (ZGTY 1988: 154).
So basically Vietnamese scholars argue that Dong Son drum decorations are indigneous while Chinese stress the Huaxia influence.
While I'm not well read in this subject you can clearly see that even the origin of the Dong Son drums are debatable.
4.All Southern Han speak Sinitic languages and there is plenty of evidence that shows that Southern Chinese languages evolved from Old and Middle Chinese.
Though it is noted that by some scholars that Cantonese has a Tai Kadai substrate.
5.This is the claim that is most ridiculous one I've seen so far,there are far too many migrations to count and I can't promise you I can quote all of them.
However I already made a previous thread about it and it generated some good discussion until EastSea joined.
Southern Han Chinese and their relationship with the Baiyue
Basically some summaries of the facts.
a.Chinese themselves documented migrations to the south and have historical records and genealogical records to back it up.
b.The Y haplogroup ratio is quite similar between Northern and Southern Han Chinese.
c.Even if today's Southern Han Chinese are Baiyue they are already Siniczed making them Chinese.
d.Baiyue population was relativly small.
e.Southern China was Siniczed slowly and migrants clustered in the Yangtze basins and the coasts.
6.The veracity of Chinese sources should be determined by who wrote it,when it was written,why was it written,was it written until duress,did the author had anything to gain to write it a certain way etc.
So a case by case basis.
Also the "facts" should be reconciled with archaeological/genealogical/anthropological records.
7a.I will repeat what I stated in a previous thread why Nanyue was Chinese.
a.The founder was from the Chinese warring state of Zhao.
b.The script was derived from China.
c.Nanyue was a vassal of the Han dynasty as recorded in the Shiji ie Nanyue begged for Ming help when Minyue was at its doorstep,sending sons to the capital,not daring to use the title Huangdi.
d.There were plenty of Qin soldiers/convicts/exiles in the population.
e.The culture was as blend of Sino-Baiyue culture.
f. Chinese style bureaucracy .
g.Chinese style military
h.The capital Panyu is in Guangdong not Northern Vietnam.
7b.The Shiji clearly states that Zhao Tuo was from Zhending,Zhao.
南越王尉佗者，真定人也，姓趙氏
史記 : 列傳 : 南越列傳 - 中國哲學書電子化計劃
It is also internationally accepted that Zhao was one the seven warring states of China.
8.I don't even know what to say about this,I'm typing this with tears in my eyes this is classic revisionism at its finest.
If you seriously believe in this claim pick up some Western works and educate yourself.
9.I think I already explained it well enough in previous posts,Yue is a Chinese term nothing more to it.
The Yue also spoke a variety of languages,it would be the Greek equivalent of barbarian.
This doesn't mean the barbarians are all related or even under one rule.
10.Being ruled by a non-Han ethnicity doesn't make you a slave,there were plenty of wealthy Han Chinese in the Yuan and the Qing and plenty of Han Chinese loyalists serving each side.
My ancestor 吳德金 Wu Dejin under the Qing dynasty reached 昭武都尉 a military position in Fuzhou.
Tell me can a bondservant or a slave take the imperial exam and reach that position?
11. Due to resurgent nationalism in East Asia we see many ethnicties cherry picking Chinese texts or rely on dubious sources in an attempt to prove their agenda this is one of them.
a.Chinese sources never mention Xich Quy,Van Lang or Hung Kings.
b.A kingdom as large as Van Lang would have certainly piqued the interest the Chinese warring states but there is no information about them.
c.Vietnamese texts state that Lu Gia the prime minster of Nanyue is from Vietnam,yet Shiji doesn't even record this.
d.Vietnamese texts state that Goujian wanted to make an alliance with the Hung Kings yet there is no mention of them in any Chinese text.
e.The Wu and the Yue did not derive their ancestry from the Hung Kings rather from the Ji family(ie the ruling house of Zhou) for the Wu or Great Yu for the Yue.
f. There is no archaeological evidence that the Hung kings ruled Southern China.
g. Linh nam chich quai was written in 1370 over 1,000 years after Nanyue fell how is a book full of fairy tales supposed to represent history?
h.Southern Han Chinese and minorities have no tales of Van Lang,Xich Quy or the Hung Kings.
i.東夾南海，西抵巴蜀，北至洞庭湖，南至狐猻精國（今占城是也）。
To the East it bordered the Southern sea,the west BaShu to the North Dong Ting Lake and to the South Hu Sun(Champa).
This phrase is used in the Huayang Guozhi showing that it is just a mimicry.
The Huayang guozhi and Early Vietnamese History | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog
j.分國中為十五部（一作郡）：曰越裳、曰交趾、曰朱鳶、曰武寧、曰福祿、日寧海（今南寧處是也）、曰陽泉（一作海）、曰陸海、曰懷驩、曰九真、曰日南、曰真定、曰文郎、曰桂林、曰象郡等部，分歸弟治之。
Van Lang was divided into 15 commanderies:Yuechang,Jiaozhi,Zhuchuan,Wuning,Fulu,Ninghai,Yangquan,Luhai,Huaihuan,Jiuzhen,Rinan,Zhending,Wenlang,Guilin,Xiang,the Hung King's brothers ruled over these lands.
Kham dinh Viet su Thong giam cuong muc even states that its strange that all 15 regions are in Northern Vietnam not Southern China.
k.Even Lac Long Quan and Au Co are based off Chinese tales
Lord Lạc Long, Âu Cơ, and the “Biography of Liu Yi” | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog
l.Phong Chau is a Sui-Tang naming convention thus it could never have existed.
The Problems with “châu” and Phong Châu | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog
In conclusion the Van Lang myth was a flimsy attempt to designate Dai Viet as being an equal to Chinese civilization and is full of rubbish.
