Vietnam vice minister apologizes to Japan for “$2 Billion loan” gaffe

[Rechoice]

This is not a corvette, not a FFG, not a DDG ... it's just a cheap missile boat, lack air-defense capacity.
How much USD to build it by Vietnamese, compared with other bigger warships a missile boat is cheaper.

This is fully equiped warship made in Vietnam, HQ-377 và HQ-378.

Cận cảnh vũ khí trên tàu tên lửa HQ-377 và HQ-378 vừa hạ thủy | Quân sự | PLO

 

[cnleio]

This is fully equiped warship made in Vietnam, HQ-377 và HQ-378.

View attachment 153895

View attachment 153896

Cận cảnh vũ khí trên tàu tên lửa HQ-377 và HQ-378 vừa hạ thủy | Quân sự | PLO

As far as i knew, the radar / weapon / engine system & missiles still imported from Russia, Vietnam shipyard built the good ship hulls.

BTW do u know how much to build new missile boat by Vietnamese ? Russia export version type12418 "Tarantul -V" class, 385ton missile boat.

 

[NiceGuy]

lool My good friend Niceguy, i already told you no country is a 'friend'(much less long time one lol) of another one in politics. The earlier you remove that word friend from your mind, then the earlier you will start seeing things more realistically(though as common civilians you are my good real friend though.). Geo politics is a very dirty/complex game for those who dont understand it/or just believe in what politicans/officials/our mainstream media says. The U.S, Russia, France and even less so India(who doesnt even have any capabilities to help Vietnam in any way at the moment) will still rather deal with a weak/poor/dependent Vietnam than otherwise believe me. Afterall if you become strong/wealthy/independent enough then you might start having ambitions or different interests from theirs as well, since you will be more able to look at your own interests more agressively, what makes you think they dont know that. This is without talking about all the deals/weapons they wont be able to reap off Vietnam if you were to be able to develop your own weapons systems(thats billions gone off for them). Moreover they already know that no matter how they might try, Vietnam doesnt really stand any chance against China in a Naval confrontation to be honest. So all they will do is just issue verbal support to you and keep selling you their weapons(boosting their weapons industries/employment). You say they are helping Vietnam improve transparency? and you even mentioned France among them on this? France i know this country very very very well, since my parents were ethnic french, and i have studied international relations in France and grew up/lived there for a long while and have visited/lived in several french former(and current) colonies. So hearing you say France is helping you increase transparency is the biggest joke of the century. The french are the biggest fraudsters out there, they are among the only eueuropean former colonial power i would say are worse than even us. You are indeed lucky you kicked them out after a bloody war(though aided by the soviets and Chinese), had Vietnam remained under france or be granted 'independence' by France 'peacefully/voluntarily' then believe me you will be even in a much worse shape today than you are now. How many french former colonies have you seen who can be said to be prosperous today? They would milked the hell outta you bro. Dont even go there. Anway let me leave ma belle France on here. Lets continue with the topic at hand. Vietnam as i said should count first and foremost on itself, if/when you have set up a proper functioning government/skilled workforce/streamlined investment policies/improved your transport networks making it easier to move goods to consumers/overseas etc then investors will inevitably flow into Vietnam, it has nothing to do with friends bro.

Moreover the soviets and the Chinese did help north Korea bro, without them they wouldnt be any North Korea today at all. They both did since it served their interests back then to push the U.,S outta their sphere of influnce/neighbourhood. You say Russia will support Vietnam to contain China? I hope you are joking bro? Right now the last thing Russia wants from Vietnam(which to be honest, it doesnt have the capabilities to at all by the way) is containing China. They both have a much more deeper/mutual world interest/relationship with the Chinese than with little Vietnam. You dont even future in their radar when they look at the big picture to be honest. coupled with our sanctions on stubborn Russia, it has even deepen their relationship even more. So forget about moscow, if you ever have any conflict with China, then expect them to stay quite(and even support the Chinese silently), since they have nothing much to gain from Vietnam, as they know you will keep buying their weapons which is all they want/get from you anyway. As for the U.S they already have bases spread all over the region and they patrol the SCS all along, so the only thing Vietnam can help in this regard is by providing a military base to the U.S close to China, so they can betteer monito their activities(though i know VCP wont agree obviously).Vietnam can be of use to the U.S as a leveraged against China though, but not really a credible deterent to contain China, that title belongs to Japan, who has all the capabilities to this. As for India is simply a NO comment........

So Vietnam should care/believe only on itself and strive as much as possible to develop, since its only through developing into a wealthy country, that you do attract others respect/attention/consideration. They will never help you get there, since they themsleves have their own issues to sort out, and you are better off weak to them anyway. Vietnam should wake up and smell the coffee.

Thanks for ur comment again, but as I said, u r not in VN, so u cant fully understand the situation.

If VN is weak, then we will lose East sea (SCS) to China. So, what will happen to US when China can fully control East sea ( SCS ). ?? U should ask some US politicians like Mr. Mc Cain before answering my question

 

[William Hung]

@Rechoice ,

I would like to elucidate you, your Vietnamese countrymen and others on the mechanisms that have been developed by Japan and Vietnam to evade instances of corruption that have been an unecessary pester:




Establishment of the Japan-Vietnam Joint Committee for Preventing Japanese ODA-related Corruption

The PCI case was taken seriously by both Governments because it could undermine the credibility of Japan’s ODA to Vietnam. Aware that it is necessary for the Governments, related agencies, and consulting companies in both countries to promptly address and implement effective measures against ODA-related corruption, to regain public trust in Japanese ODA to Vietnam, Mr. Masato Kitera, Director- General of International Cooperation Bureau, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, visited Vietnam from September 18 to 20, 2008. Mr. Kitera informed the Vietnamese Government of the serious public perception towards the PCI case in Japan and discussed with Mr. Vo Hong Phuc, Minister of Planning and Investment, and other government officials, how to tackle this problem, to regain public trust in Japan’s ODA to Vietnam.

Consequently, the Governments of Japan and Vietnam reconfirmed the seriousness of the PCI case and reaffirmed that ODA-related corruption cases, including the PCI case, would be strictly dealt with. Moreover, both Governments agreed to the establishment of a Vietnam-Japan Joint Committee for Preventing Japanese ODA-related Corruption to work jointly towards implementing effective measures against ODA-related corruption.

Subsequently, the Governments of Japan and Vietnam held the first meeting of the Committee on November 7, 2008, and the second one on December 19, 2008. The Committee discussed and examined concrete and effective new measures to be taken by Japan and by Vietnam respectively, to prevent recurrence of similar cases. As a result of the discussion, both Governments agreed to take the following measures.


Strengthening the system / organization to prevent corruption

(1) The National Strategy for Preventing and Combating Corruption towards 2020, which is now under final consideration of the Prime Minister, will be implemented in close consultation with donors.

(2) Based on the Strategy, Vietnam will implement the Action Plan as early as possible,
including:

(a) Ratification of the UN Convention against Corruption by June 2009.
(b) Review of the activities of the Steering Committee on Anti-Corruption (both
at central and regional levels) for enhanced effectiveness of anti-corruption
activities and strengthening of monitoring and supervision by the Central Committee.
(c)Issuance of Regulations on receiving and processing information and denunciations on corruption by June 2009.​

(3) The Ministry of Justice will draft a Decree on participation of the general public, social organizations, and socio-professional associations in policy / law-making by June 2009.

(4) The Ministry of Planning and Investment will establish a Code of Conduct / Ethics for bidding by June 2009. Upon the establishment of the Code of Conduct / Ethics, all related agencies and bidding companies will be obliged to sign and observe the Code.



Reference: Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Japan
View attachment 153319

These are the costs in developing a nation. Nations don't develop free of debt as what some others here might think possible.

I see you're still trying to defend the Japanese govt (or JICA) and continue to post these flowery PR words to backup your defences. You have the right to do that but at least engage with the counter-arguments or empirical evidences that other members here has given against Japanese ODA.

Most of your PR posts with flowery words from Japanese officials has already been debunked.

You've previously said "Japan is the Most serious about corruption issues." Now, you've continued to post this cheap talk about the 2009 joint committee that will address corruption issues. Yes, it is all cheap talk. Look at this 2011 report from a OECD working group analysing corruption issues in Japan:

http://www.oecd.org/daf/anti-bribery/anti-briberyconvention/Japanphase3reportEN.pdf

Here's what they've said regarding ODA corruption on page 12:

The lead examiners consider that the number of investigations and prosecutions in more than 12 years since the offence came into force in Japan seems very low, particularly given the size and scope of the Japanese economy, as it can be expected that the higher the level of exports and outward foreign direct investment (FDI), the greater the risk of exposure to bribe solicitation in foreign jurisdictions.

The lead examiners have the clear impression that Japan is still not actively detecting and investigating foreign bribery cases, and that this is likely a major impediment to a more effective enforcement of Japan’s foreign bribery offence.

The main focus of this report is on assessing potential obstacles to Japan’s active enforcement of the foreign bribery offence and recommending constructive solutions on addressing this issue. As a result, the lead examiners recommend that Japan immediately take appropriate steps to address this problem, and report back in this regard within six months of adoption of this report .

And it seems like Japan has never taken these anti-corruption advises seriously because JTC just bribed some corrupted Viet officials again this year.

Given what all these rubbish is going on behind the scene, I find it laughable for you to say that Japan was the MOST serious about corruption issues. You even had the audacity to make this kind of claim:

Lastly, JICA and ODA follow post implementation evaluations after each project, and objective external and internal auditing renders any instance of corruption nill.

Really? Nil, zero? No instance of corruption at all??

Everything smells fishy with Japanese ODA my friend. The bribery of corrupt Viet officials, the rampant Bid-rigging on the Japanese side, JICA turning the blind eye from all these corruption cases. I smell a big collusion going on between corrupt local officials, JICA and Japanese contractors.

I don't know if you're just being very dishonest and outright lying, or you didn't know much about what's really going on behind the scene. If you don't really know, then I recommend you two books, which are also on my reading list:

-The Tyranny of Experts by William Easterly.
- The Great Escape by Angus Deaton.

Believe it or not, much of what @NiceGuy has been saying in this thread is exactly what Easterly has been saying (except for the Mekong bit). "Aid" like Japan style ODA is doing more harm than good, so no thank you Japan. I find it pretty damn cool that the average Vietnamese people like NiceGuy has come to the same Anti-Aid position, not by reading western economists and professors, but through their own personal experience and observations.

So instead of appreciating their personal insights, I find you extremely arrogant and ignorant for dismissing their claims and calling them "ungrateful clods."

It is you that needs to be more objective and honest.

 

[NiceGuy]

I see you're still trying to defend the Japanese govt (or JICA) and continue to post these flowery PR words to backup your defences. You have the right to do that but at least engage with the counter-arguments or empirical evidences that other members here has given against Japanese ODA.

Most of your PR posts with flowery words from Japanese officials has already been debunked.

You've previously said "Japan is the Most serious about corruption issues." Now, you've continued to post this cheap talk about the 2009 joint committee that will address corruption issues. Yes, it is all cheap talk. Look at this 2011 report from a OECD working group analysing corruption issues in Japan:

http://www.oecd.org/daf/anti-bribery/anti-briberyconvention/Japanphase3reportEN.pdf

Here's what they've said regarding ODA corruption:



And it seems like Japan has never taken these anti-corruption advises seriously because JTC just bribed some corrupted Viet officials again this year.

Given what all these rubbish is going on behind the scene, I find it laughable for you to say that Japan was the MOST serious about corruption issues. You even had the audacity to make this kind of claim:



Really? Nil, zero? No instance of corruption at all??

I don't know if you're just being very dishonest and outright lying, or you didn't know much about what's really going on behind the scene. If you don't really know, then I recommend you two books, which are also on my reading list:

-The Tyranny of Experts by William Easterly.
- The Great Escape by Angus Deaton.

Believe it or not, much of what @NiceGuy has been saying in this thread is exactly what Easterly has been saying (except for the Mekong bit). "Aid" like Japan style ODA is doing more harm than good. I find it pretty damn cool that the average Vietnamese people like NiceGuy has come to the same Anti-Aid position, not by reading western economists and professors, but through their own personal experience and observations.

So instead of appreciating their personal insights, I find you extremely arrogant and ignorant for dismissing their claims and calling them "ungrateful clods."

It is you that needs to be more objective and honest.[/B]

Yeah, I've never read any western economists books abt 'Aid' before. We r just like Ho Chi Minh uncle who didnt know what is Communist theory, but he followed the communist block coz it helped VN to unify the nations.

We know clearly what is good and bad for our nation, we will will find the helper around the world to tackle the corruption . JP is clearly a bad partner if they keep giving ODA to our corrupted officials.

 

[William Hung]

Yeah, I've never read any western economists books abt 'Aid' before. We r just like Ho Chi Minh uncle who didnt know what is Communist theory, but he followed the communist block coz it helped VN to unify the nations.

We know clearly what is good and bad for our nation, we will will find the helper around the world to tackle the corruption . JP is clearly a bad partner if they keep giving ODA to our corrupted officials.

That's why I find it very cool to read how the Vietnamese people have discovered this truth about "aid" or "ODA". No need to read western economists, they can just see it for themselves.

Like what Mike said, the West has played this game since long ago, before Japan did. Many western economists and professors have already unmasked this "aid" program as a dirty game.

I think the Japanese govt thought the VietNamese people are naive "clods" and can never see what is going on. They will be surprised.

Some people here just can't accept the truth.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Japan is in the same league with you, and even more advanced technological in many fields. So saying they are not in the same league is indeed not correct. Moreover as i said, the average Japanese is way way way more productive than the average Chinese. I said if China was to be half as productive as Japan, then your economy wil be over twice that of the U.S This shows despite your claim of being over Japan, you are not really, its just due to your size/population that makes the difference, if not, China should be at least 5 times Japans economy by now(if it does, then it will still be half as productive as Japan). Im sure if Japan had your resources/manpower, then even the U.S will be lagging behind them.

As for Vietnam and China corruption, i already mentioned the reasons why China despite being as corupt/if not more corrupt than Vietnam, its still mrore industrialized/advanced. You should go again through my points i mentioned earlier bros. But its not really because China is less corrupt than Vietnam per se(i dont think it is, since your corruption is as huge as thsat of Vietnam, some will say even more),the reason lies somewhere else, which i mentioned earlier. So it has nothing to do with China is less corrupt than Vietnam or others. For the 2 communist countries are very much similar.

China's Communist Party Admits It Has a Big Corruption Problem - Businessweek

Japan's production capability is simply overrated.

Just look at the price of their domestic weapons, and with the incomplete capability to build their own weapons.

The GDP figure can be deceptive sometimes. I think that you won't consider Qatar to be superior to the US, even a Qatar with the size of the US won't be capable to achieve the same scale of achievement.

BTW, China arrests the corrupt crooks, while the West uses their law to protect them.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Well, we in the E.U(which i believe you mean by western world.) though united under the E.U are still relatively loose when it comes to acting as one country, reason the U.S is still the single largest/most powerful country on planet earth. Even though as a block we are bigger than the U.S economically, but each country is still a country, which kind of dilutes our economic weight since we cant act as single country. Moreover, its also due to historical factors, of which the 1st and most importantly the 2nd world war played out. so this made us come together more closely than we would have otherwise.

So as of now, though we also sometimes have issues/differences with the U.S, but overall we know that having the U.S as the world's super power still serves our interests better than having say Russia or China. From the international organizations which we control together(i.e World Bank, IMF, SWIFT, UN security council, ICC, etc) to our shared world view of maintaining our values/way of life and shaping other countries/regions in our own way/image, to imposing them, to coercing other stubborn powers to follow our set rules/instituitions/world order etc. So all these makes us strong allies(even though its obviously led by the U.S, but then again, there shluld always be a leader in everything, else a group will have no real vision and will dissolve/be less effective, this is the main reason i dont see ay of you developing counjtries ever being able to challenge us, since you are all too divided, have ego, and everybody wants to be the leader even when they know they are farbless weaker/not powerful enough. So we can easilly play you off one another without much effort. . So there you go, in short our interests match/we gain much more from being partners/allies(even though again led by the U.S, but so what? afterall, they are way ahead of any country in the world, so they are a worthy leader, if things change in future then of course our view will change as well, but as of now its not the case.), hence we will stick together than otherwise.

That's why our common goal with Russia is to make the world multipolar.

We just stick with our own political sphere.

You my friend, just stop overestimating the US, they are also just made by the mere mortals, not gods.

 

[frequency]

lool U.S is the leader of the western world/and the world's only super power (for now) bro. No arguing about that.

Leader in term of economic and fire power, yes.

 

[NiceGuy]

That's why I find it very cool to read how the Vietnamese people have discovered this truth about "aid" or "ODA". No need to read western economists, they can just see it for themselves.

Like what Mike said, the West has played this game since long ago, before Japan did. Many western economists and professors have already unmasked this "aid" program as a dirty game.

I think the Japanese govt thought the VietNamese people are naive "clods" and can never see what is going on. They will be surprised.

Some people here just can't accept the truth.

I've clearly know how dirty JP ODA is since Can Tho bridge collapse in 2007 wt many poor VN workers died. Many of us know it, but we just simply keep quiet.

Bcz of the long war, and bcz of the Communist theory who favor worker and farmer, so most of VN leaders have short vision and low educated coz they were born in Clod families (Yeah, its true when calling us 'Clods' ). For example: Our current leader N.T.Dung almost has Zero knowledge abt economics and surely he never care to read any foreign economic books (even read I bet that he still doesnt understand ) coz he was just a farmer and a soldier in VN war. But at least our leaders r very smart in fighting and keep the country in one piece.

Thats why, we do hope that when VN people (including our leaders) have better education we will handle our country better in the future. VNese really want a better education now, thats why VN minister of education is among the worst leaders in Confident vote coz the current education still look like a propaganda to brainwash people instead of giving them more knowledge .

 

[William Hung]

I've clearly know how dirty JP ODA is since Can Tho bridge collapse in 2007 wt many poor VN workers died. Many of us know it, but we just simply keep quiet.

Bcz of the long war, and bcz of the Communist theory who favor worker and farmer, so most of VN leaders have short vision and low educated coz they were born in Clod families (Yeah, its true when calling us 'Clods' ). For example: Our current leader N.T.Dung almost has Zero knowledge abt economics and surely he never care to read any foreign economic books (even read I bet that he still doesnt understand ) coz he was just a farmer and a soldier in VN war. But at least our leaders r very smart in fighting and keep the country in one piece.

Thats why, we do hope that when VN people (including our leaders) have better education we will handle our country better in the future. VNese really want a better education now, thats why VN minister of education is among the worst leaders in Confident vote coz the current education still look like a propaganda to brainwash people instead of giving them more knowledge .

Tell the truth, you have been reading western economic books about "aid." Some of the things you've said here is the same as what some western economists has been saying. Also, you play around in the stock market, so I'm sure you have been educated in economics.

I've also read Vietnamese media discussing these ODA scandals. All of the analysts, professors and journalists know all about these western perspective on "aid." I don't think the Vietnamese people are clods.

 

[Aepsilons]

さすがに。。。嫌いでもない。

This is fully equiped warship made in Vietnam, HQ-377 và HQ-378.

View attachment 153895

View attachment 153896

Cận cảnh vũ khí trên tàu tên lửa HQ-377 và HQ-378 vừa hạ thủy | Quân sự | PLO

It has never been denied of the ingenuity of the Vietnamese. We also know of their growing shipping industry.

 

[Aepsilons]

I've clearly know how dirty JP ODA is since Can Tho bridge collapse in 2007 wt many poor VN workers died. Many of us know it, but we just simply keep quiet.

Bcz of the long war, and bcz of the Communist theory who favor worker and farmer, so most of VN leaders have short vision and low educated coz they were born in Clod families (Yeah, its true when calling us 'Clods' ). For example: Our current leader N.T.Dung almost has Zero knowledge abt economics and surely he never care to read any foreign economic books (even read I bet that he still doesnt understand ) coz he was just a farmer and a soldier in VN war. But at least our leaders r very smart in fighting and keep the country in one piece.

Thats why, we do hope that when VN people (including our leaders) have better education we will handle our country better in the future. VNese really want a better education now, thats why VN minister of education is among the worst leaders in Confident vote coz the current education still look like a propaganda to brainwash people instead of giving them more knowledge .

I, too, wish that your government improves on transparency and eventually moves away from foreign aid, including Japan's own ODA. Perhaps the best thing to do is to significantly reduce foreign ODA to Vietnam in the coming years. In fact, the recent policy change reflects that very spirit. All in all, I'm sure Vietnam will be more than capable of developing itself. If Japanese foreign aid is not needed, then I don't see why it should be perpetuated.

 

[William Hung]

I, too, wish that your government improves on transparency and eventually moves away from foreign aid, including Japan's own ODA.

Mate, look at your snide attitude in this post. You still haven't admit the dirty involvements from the Japanese side and puts all the blame on the Vietnamese side.

It is the Japanese that has been colluding with the corrupt officials. The Japanese contractors are the ones that has been feeding these ODA drugs to the Viet officials and keeping their addiction alive. The Japanese has as much blame as the corrupt Viet officials.

From an Anti-Aid perspective, Japan has done more harm than good.

@NiceGuy has been right on. Read these posts again carefully:

Bro, if we can improve our transparency, we can borrow more money wt cheaper interest rate from W.B, and we dont have to use low quality JP product wt high price,too.

And why we still cant improve our transparency ??/ BCz 'free' JP ODA keep our corrupted,stupid official alive. Just like some stupid pro-Soviet officials made us believe that 'Moon in Soviet is nicer than in US, Soviet's watch is better than Swiss's watch !' until Soviet collapse.

To normal VNese stop giving ODA to our govt will be better for us, we got a corrupted Govt, every one (including JPese) know that. The ODA will not help poor VNese much, it only help corrupted VN officials and JP companies who won the project to get rich.

If u guys keep giving ODA, then pls dont hope to get the money back coz it dont bring benefit to poor VNese and normal JPese like u and me ,bro

There is no way to stop corruption in VN except war happen or some countries invade us again .and people r forced to remove bad Govt. and find a better leader.

Our Govt is just like Kim's family in NK, cant remove them , thats why many VNese prefer a closer tie wt US-France to Japan coz US-France have a strict rules to corrupted Govt when JP-China Govt. willing to support corrupted Govt to make dirty money from poor people.

The problem is that poor VNese cant sack them, they r above the law. ODA is just like a poison to poor VNese coz it help our corrupted Govt. to live longer and get richer .

This is not saying that rich countries should not help and assist VietNam. Vietnam still needs help from outside, even from Japan. But the "help" that Japan has been giving to VietNam through ODA in the past decade has been bad.

 

[NiceGuy]

Tell the truth, you have been reading western economic books about "aid." Some of the things you've said here is the same as what some western economists has been saying. Also, you play around in the stock market, so I'm sure you have been educated in economics.

I've also read Vietnamese media discussing these ODA scandals. All of the analysts, professors and journalists know all about these western perspective on "aid." I don't think the Vietnamese people are clods.

I studied in Faculty of Business Administration in VN university, so I know quite good abt economics, but they didnt teach me abt Foreing 'aid' . VN stock market is quite different wt other Stock markets (its up when others down and vice versa ), so I dont need to read foreign economics in order to play VN stock. Seem like the only one way to win in VN stock is to know clearly abt what is happening in VN and VN is in good or bad shape and who r VN's friends, who r not

@ Rechoice:I think VN index may below 590 (below 600 means VN economy is not good) , so I waited and hoped I could buy DRH below 5.0, but now its 5.9 even stock now is just 593-594, so I missed the chance to make money , now I only hope to buy LCG wt cheaper price when VN index below 590.