Vietnam Defence Forum

[Viet]

courtesy to Xinhua

Chinese Defense Minister Chang Wanquan (L front) holds a welcoming ceremony for his Vietnamese counterpart Ngo Xuan Lich before their talks in Beijing, capital of China, Aug. 30, 2016. (Xinhua/Ding Haitao)

 

[Farhan Bohra]

Since 1982, the modus operandi of China’s military incursions in both Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh has been to scare Indian herdsmen into abandoning grazing land and then to construct permanent military structures like helipads. It is such actions that led to two specific politico-military events: the Thandrong Incident, followed by the Sumdorong Chu Incident, which are now collectively known in diplomatic circles as the Wangdung Affair. Though no official records of these events/affairs have been de-classified as yet by the Govt. of India, only THREE (03) near-authentic recollections that have been published so far in India, and they are being detailed for the very first time below:

 

[Farhan Bohra]

@Viet Now think this if tomorrow PLA bypass the well defended LAC and invade Bhutan and Nepal, what will India do? Obviously then Indian Army have to deploy in Nepal and Bhutan to keep them out of Indian border.

The IA’s OP-PLANs

India’s military posture against China in Ladakh, Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh is to maintain full strategic defence with minor tactical offensive capabilities. Given the politico-operational compulsions, difficult terrain, and the PLA’s track record, it is clear that the Indian Army (IA) was, until the previous decade, was doing an onerous task. For instance, Sikkim has an area of approximately 8,000sqkm, measuring 113km north to south, and 64km from east to west with heights rising up to 28,000 feet. Militarily, the state is divided into north and east Sikkim. Due to a central massif, north Sikkim is further divided into the Muguthang Valley in the west, the Kerang Plateau in the east, and north-east Sikkim. The Lachung, Lachen and Muguthang Valleys in north Sikkim prevent any lateral movement.

Of the 14 passes along the 206km-long Sikkim-TAR border, six are all-weather, implying that these are open throughout the year. Three each of these passes are in north and east Sikkim, these being Kongra La, Bomcho La, Sese La, Nathu La (at 14,438 feet in east Sikkim), Batang La and Doka La. Unlike the passes in north-east and east Sikkim, the passes on the watershed border in north Sikkim are fairly wide and motorable. Being windswept, they remain relatively free from snow and are open throughout the year. The watershed and the adjoining Tibetan Plateau are devoid of any cover.

The terrain in north and north-east Sikkim is more difficult, rugged and formidable, with the altitude rising suddenly and steeply (one can travel from 5,000 feet to 14,000 feet in just about 60km) than east Sikkim, where surface communications are better developed due to its proximity to the northern West Bengal plains. India’s 435km-long border with Nepal includes a 125km border between Nepal and Sikkim, of which about 50km is most inhospitable. Consequently, the only available area with existing land and air transportation networks that can host armoured/mechanised/tactical aviation/UAV assets is northern West Bengal, from where they can be swiftly deployed to bolster the IA’s positions opposite Bhutan’s Dolam Plateau. Any PLA move into Dolam means that India’s border with China gets distorted at Sikkim’s tri-junction with Bhutan. It also means that the PLA moves a few kilometres south from where they originally were. It brings them closer to northern West Bengal’s Siliguri Corridor. China has always laid claim to Dolam. On the east the Dolam Plateau is skirted by the Amo Chhu stream that flows north-south from the Chumbi Valley to Bhutan and then enters West Bengal at Jaldhaka where the state government has a hydel project. The tri-junction is roughly equidistant from the two Indian Army posts at Doka La (bordering Bhutan) and Batang La (bordering China). Dokala overlooks Dolam, which is at a lower altitude. The Dolam Valley is a largely-barren 20 sq km plateau that is ideal for armourted manoeuvre warfare, just like the terrain in eastern Ladakh.

In Ladakh, the IA has since mid-1999 witnessed persistent PLA transgressions-in-strength at the Depsang Bulge, Trig Heights, Spanggur Gap and Chip Chap Valley in northeastern Ladakh. During wartime, the PLA’s probable intention would be to enter from the south of the Karakoram Range and cross the Shyok River from the east. The PLA has also moved motorised forces into Charding Nalla since 2009 and they could eventually threaten the Manali-Leh route.

China thus is estimated to want to push Indian control to the left of Shyok River in the north and left of the Indus River in the east, possibly to establish both rivers as natural boundaries. In Chushul, the aim is to reach Luking to take control of the entire Pangong Tso Lake. This three-pronged strategy would make India defenceless both in the Indus Valley and the Nubra Valley.

In mid-2009, India’s Ministry of Defence approved the IA’s plans for raising three independent armoured brigades (each inclusive of two tank regiments with T-72 Combat Improved Ajeya medium tanks and one mechanised infantry regiment with BMP-2K Sarath ICVs). While each tank regiment has since early 2014 been equipped with 58 T-72CIAs, the mechanised infantry regiments each possess 70 BMP-2Ks. Of these threenew Independent Armoured Brigades, one is located in Ladakh (under the Leh-HQed XIV Corps), another in Uttarakhand and the third in Kalimpong under the XXXIII ‘Trishakti’ Corps that is HQed in Sukna near the city of Siliguri. The Brigade in Ladakh is responsible for the protection of passes like Lanak La, Kongka La, Rezang La, Chang La and Jara La. In Uttarakhand, the Brigade is responsible for securing the passes in Mana, Niti, Kungri Bingri, Darma, and Lipulekh. In Sikkim, the third Brigade is responsible for securing the Dolam Plateau. These formations are being supplemented by a string of Advance Landing Grounds (ALG) capable of accommodating the Indian Air Force’s (IAF) C-130H-30 Super Hercules transport aircraft, newly-built Army Aviation Corps bases capable of housing LUHs and Rudra helicopter-gunships, plus a string of rear-area MALE-UAV air bases operated and owned by the IA.

Also, new border roads/bridges and railway lines are being built not just for facilitating the movement of armoured/mechanised formations (transported mostly by wheeled transporters), but also field artillery howitzers like the soon-to-be-acquired LW-155/M-777 ultralightweight howitzers that will be used for providing indirect fire-support for 99 Mountain Brigade, which is part of the 6 Mountain Division, the formation that is in charge of protecting India’s borders in Uttarakhand with China. For securing the Shipki pass in Himachal Pradesh, an existing mechanised infantry battalion has been deployed there and will come under IX Corps, headquartered at Yol in Himachal Pradesh.

 

[Farhan Bohra]

The IA’s independent armoured brigades in Ladakh, northern West Bengal and Uttarkhand will thus be supported in wartime by not just ISTR assets like MALE-UAVs (numbering more than 50), but also by at least 45 Rudra helicopter gunships armed with PGMs like the HELINA, an equal number of LUHs, and 145 LW-155/M-777 UFHs, with air-maintenance of rear-area logistics networks being provided by the IAF’s C-130H-30s, CH-47F Chinooks and Mi-17V-5s.

For localised air-defence, both the IA and IAF have since 2011 deployed their respective stocks of manportable air-defence radars to forward locations along the Sino-Indian LAC to keep track of the PLA’s routine airspace transgressions—something that should have been done as far back as 2008. While the IAF’s DRDO-developed and Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL)-built S-band Aslesha three-dimensional radars have been deployed at Nyoma, Chushul and Fukche, the Army-specific Bharani manportable radars have been deployed at Demchok and Pangong Tso in Ladakh, as well as at two locations in Uttarakhand and Sikkim.

The Aslesha, which weighs 250kg, uses low-probability-of-intercept frequencies to look out for terrain-hugging tactical UAVs and helicopters over mountainous terrain out to 50km. The IAF has to date ordered 21 of them, and first deliveries took place in January 2008. On the other hand, the Bharani is a two-dimensional L-band gapfiller system now in series-production for the Army. It has a range of 40km and can track up to 100 airborne targets. To date, 16 Bharanis—meant to be used in conjunction with SHORADS like the SpyDer-SR—have been delivered.

For theatre-wide deep surveillance across the LAC, the IAF already possesses EL/M-2060P pod-mounted synthetic aperture radars, as well as the first two of 11 Bombardier 5000 jets equipped with belly-mounted SAR sensors and ELINT sensors—all of which have given the IAF far superior ISTR capabilities when compared to those available to the PLAAF.

@Viet Lastly, one should know your enemy that how much they are involved in different theaters.

And seriously, thats why I love Vietnam and Japanese defence threads.

 

[hoangsa74]

Pffff and how that type of alliance work for these countries: South Vietnam ? Georgia ? Royal Cambodia and Laos ? They all have US as a devoted ally, what happen to them ? Did they win ? NOPE. Thais armed forces are for coup and parade, not for fighting, just like the ARVN. Proof ? VN has many minorities and religions, not a single significant arm insurgency or bombing since 1980s with the "primitive" equipment. Thailand with that "majestic" army cant even properly secure his southern part of the country. And not to mention Philippine, "exercising" with the US whenever China take a reef from his hand like Scarborough reef for an example. You like "Oh Let get in an alliance, we will be 1000% safe""Let buys F-35, its can shoot down 1000 planes before requiring a landing". The type of alliance that gets you a military protection require a near total - control of 1 country to another. That country say A you say A, tell B you tell B. And if that country go to war, you go to war with him. Its not easy as "Hey, lets be ally, you protect me while i show you my gratitude". Only people that cant read online news and drown in a pool of illusion made from their own limited knowledge of history facts can think otherwise.

Naval infantry equipment. I personally think that Israel stuffs are on the rise in our army.

what r u smoking, comrade? 230,000 allied troops died and wounded on behalf of RVN. How many Chinese or soviets troops died and wounded for north Vietnam? Zero, right?. yeah, the soviet n Chinese fought the u.s in Vietnam to the last vc fighter and all u get is tap in the back for being the 3rd most "powerful" military, u r awesome, u beat the u.s, u stronk blah blah blah. You lost over 1 million dead or wounded, lol. If term of geopolitics, u r way behind the RVN; I mean really way behind. The RVN got weapons and men died and wounded for them. You on the other hand, were nothing but cannon fodders in exchange for a few ak47.

Not a single soul in this forum or this world believes that u stand a chance against Thailand military, let alone a giant like China. Thailand's anti tank forces, armour vehicles, and tanks will roll over your military in a heart beat. That's the reason why your leaders are begging and lobbying over the years for the u.s to lift the arms embargo. The u.s will not sell weapons to any country if they do not listen to the u.s no EXCEPTION; ie being a lab dog by your definition and your leadership is on the path to being a lab dog of the U.S whether u bo doi like it or not. Buying weapons from the u.s is a PRIVILEGE, it is not your right. I repeat again, it is a PRIVILEGE, not a right. A few chump change from a communist won't make a dent in the U.S annual budget of hundred of billions of dollars. You want weapons and license production from the U.S without being a lab dog? In your dream, comrade. What r u? A beggar? You only receive, but not give? What does the u.s get in return for helping u? A few chump change?

Don't count too much on those Russian junks can do for you when the real time comes, comrade. The Russian will give away the location of your submarines to the Chinese in a heart beat or they will disable for jets in mid air n u don't even know why. the Russian is making hundred of billions of dollars by selling oil and gas to the Chinese; u would be a fool if u believe a few chump change from Vietnam is more important to the Russian than hundreds of billions of dollars from the Chinese. The U.S otoh, is having an annual trade deficit of $300 billion with the chinese; that's the difference. The Chinese is gaining by trading with the U.S. The U.S will unload the Chinese in a heart beat.

 

[Carlosa]

Not a single soul in this forum or this world believes that u stand a chance against Thailand military, let alone a giant like China. Thailand's anti tank forces, armour vehicles, and tanks will roll over your military in a heart beat. .

I'm not interested in getting into the political thing, but you are really delusional about Thailand. Is Thailand that doesn't stand a chance either in the ground, air or naval. And lets not even talk about their willingness to fight, because on that department, the difference is even worse. I know Thailand and Thai people very, very well. They are the first ones to run. They don't have the balls to fight. I used to live in Thailand, I know military people related to the Thai military, I know what I'm talking about. You don't have a clue about the Thai military and don't try to tell me about their equipment, which is mostly old crap and what is modern, they only have in very small quantities. Even tiny Laos beat them up in the past.

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PM Narendra Modi’s Vietnam visit is to signal India’s presence in South-East Asia
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...e-in-south-east-asia/articleshow/53903141.cms
NEW DELHI: Narendra Modi's to visit Vietnam on September 3 enroute to China for the G-20 Summit signaling India's growing strategic presence in South East Asia in Beijing's periphery. Delhi is expected to offer additional support to Hanoi's military establishment, including finance and training, assistance to space sector, greater investments besides acquiring possible stakes in supplementary hydrocarbon blocks.

While the highlight of PM's day-long visit will be signing of contract for supply of four patrol boats to Vietnamese military under the $100 -million line of credit that was extended during its PM's India visit in October 2014, India could offer additional financial support in building capacity of Hanoi's military establishment and may increase quota for training of armed forces personnel and undertake further repair and maintenance of defence hardware, hinted persons familiar with the developments. India's support to Vietnam's defence sector is aimed at augmenting capacity of the Southeast Asian nation's military establishment.

Vietnam — the current country coordinator for India in the ASEAN -- has an expanding strategic partnership with India in the region in more than one way. Today, Hanoi besides Singapore is among the two top strategic partners in ASEAN. While the growing defence partnership --based on common Russian military platform — has captured the popular imagination, maritime and cyber security covers the other areas of security cooperation, hinted official sources. A key outcome of the visit could be a document on cyber security partnership.

Built on the bonhomie of the Cold War era when India extended emotional and moral support to the forces fighting American military, Delhi and Hanoi have drawn closer to each other over the past decade amid China's growing aggression and ambitions in SE Asia including South China Sea (SCS) region. That he chose to visit Vietnam, a claimant in SCS, ahead of China and later Laos for East and ASEAN Summits itself has a symbolic significance.

Experts of India-Vietnam affairs, however, point out that both sides prefer to keep key strands of the strategic partnership under wraps to avoid reaction from Beijing. While India is not militarily active in South China Sea (SCS) region and advocates peaceful resolution, Delhi has asserted that it favours rules based global order based on UNCLOS and against unilateral actions after the Arbitration Court in Hague on July 12 dismissed Beijing's historical claims in SCS in a case vis a vis Philippines.

India has been advocating Freedom of Navigation in international waters including SCS --key sea lane of communication for substantial part of India's global trade. It may be recalled Vietnam is the only country in the region whose military has experience of fighting China in late 1970s, 1980s and again in mid 1990s over territorial matters including claims in SCS.

 

[Silent Knight]

Whoa, wall of text everywhere. Here's some photos and news with less text.

Vietnam has successfully performed field test of the self-produced 5.56x45mm NATO ammunition for the TAR-21 assault rifles.

Two Su-22Ms have been donated to the Air Force Museum in Hanoi. These two aircrafts were used for patrolling the Spratly Islands from 1980 to 2000. They were previously decommissioned and left out in the open in the 923rd Fighter Regiment.

5821 and 5831 are the two with covered tail.

In the museum with fresh paint.

And the VPAF order of battle in the next 10 years, probably.

 

[Viet]

@Farhan Bohra

I believe after reading the texts you provided I will become an expert in India/China relation

 

[Viet]

Molynia M5/M6 guided missile corvettes

Welcome to the Navy

 

[gambit]

Okay thats quite a good reply. Basically you are saying VN can not be sure of the US as a reliable military ally for VN and that VN joining an alliance would force inself into various commitments and render itself unflexible in various aspects. So put these two factors together, VN should not commit to such a “military” alliance, or that its not worth it.

That is quite a reasonable explanation. What would your respond to that be Sir @gambit?

A large chunk of my work day involves various meetings to discuss issues from technical to production. As engineering representative from my area, my task is to take notes of those issues and try to implement solutions.

The one thing that troubleshooters like me really hate is whining without providing even an idea of a solution.

Viet Nam should not enter an alliance because of A thru Z. Fine. In principle, that is high ideal. In fact, the US originally lived that way. Do not get involved in foreign affairs.

But now that Viet Nam is being threatened by an aggressive China with clearly superior military might. Whine about the US ? Fine. What is your solution ? Give me, at least on the intellectual level, an idea of a solution. I will try to flesh out the details and create tools to create a solution. Do not whine and expect me to solve the problem.

That is the biggest pet peeve I have towards those who pretentiously put themselves as 'intellectuals' on various matters. What you called of his advice that Viet Nam SHOULD NOT get into alliances as reasonable is anything but.

Refusal to get into alliances maybe high minded principle, but rarely worked in real life. The definition of 'geopolitics' is about how geography INEVITABLY forces countries into alliances. The man criticized me for not taking history seriously and yet he is the one who does not recognize that fact and truth.

Do any Viet here really in critical thinking genuinely believes that if China believe Viet Nam will not get into an alliance with the US, or anyone else for that matter, that China will treat Viet Nam as an equal ? If history is any of an instructor, the answer is a huge f-cking NO.

If the advice is that Viet Nam should not get into alliance, then the Chinese will ask among themselves: Why SHOULD China treat Viet Nam as an equal ?

What is 'should' or 'should not' for one is not always applicable to the next. Self interests overrules all. For the Chinese, if it is in China's self interests that Viet Nam, the Philippines, and Indonesia are forcibly submissive regarding the SCS, China should act towards the fulfillment of those self interests. Damnation for Viet Nam, the Philippines, and Indonesia. When Viet Nam is under China's boot, the man will find something else to whine about.

 

[Silent Knight]

Molynia M5/M6 guided missile corvettes

Welcome to the Navy

Not yet, that's just the sea trial. We'll have to wait until the commission ceremony and then they'll receive naval designation.

 

[gambit]

Sir, I am also interested to know what you mean by the word “alliance”. Can you define it first?

An alliance is when two or more parties temporarily unite and work towards accomplishing shared goals. Nothing complicated about it.

Then I would like to hear why you think joining an alliance is needed for Vietnam. I personally dont think a war will break out any time soon so can you clarify why you think VN needs to join an alliance? Or if you disagree with that then can you clarify what circumstances you think are possible and why you think VN needs to join an alliance in those circumstances?

Poland had a military alliance with Britain and France but that alliance was undermined by Britain's Chamberlain, who had (groundless) faith that Hitler could be reasoned with. In essence, Hitler turned to war because he was (correctly) confident that the alliances before him were weak when they were formed.

An alliance does not guarantee there will be no war, but at least it would give a potential threat pause to reconsider the consequences of war.

Our friend here is saying that Viet Nam should learn from history. Which version is he talking about ? For every instance he can bring up that could discourage Viet Nam from entering an alliance, there is an instance where it is EQUALLY compelling that Viet Nam should enter an alliance.

Our friend brought up what happened to South Viet Nam -- that the US abandoned an ally to communism.

Fair enough of a warning.

So let us take a look at Viet Nam's situation TODAY...

When the Soviet Union collapsed, Viet Nam lost a major source of economic aid. To survive, Vietnamese communists had to do the ideological unthinkable -- to allow capitalism in the country. As if that was not humiliating enough a public admission that the communist experiment failed miserably, Viet Nam practically begged foreigners for help and to do it quick. The JPNese, SKReans, Taiwanese, Canada, and a few Europeans responded.

Despite the economic growth, militarily speaking, Viet Nam is STILL a 3rd world power. She produce no indigenous arms and have to import her defenses. Much, if not most, of Viet Nam's trade comes from access to the seas. Never mind the land victories Viet Nam had against China in that border conflict in 1979, sea warfare is different and analyses does not favor the Vietnamese Navy. On land, combatants can use terrain to their advantages if they are shrewd enough. At sea, the quickest route between two points is truly the direct path and the navy with the fastest ships set the battle scenes. Land can be fenced off, but not water. So while China cannot fenced off the South China Sea, China can muster up enough naval force to effectively control access to the area.

If not an alliance, then what other options ? Negotiations with China ? That is even more laughable an idea than an alliance with the US.

 

[hoangsa74]

. You like "Oh Let get in an alliance, we will be 1000% safe""Let buys F-35, its can shoot down 1000 planes before requiring a landing".

Right, so u tell me what kind of military solution for u to be able to keep the Spratly without having the F-35 or the F-15 Silent Eagle? The answer is that u don't have a military solution. You don't have the technology edge or even the quantity to measure up to China.

You don't want a military alliance so u believe vn alone can beat china in a war over the spratly. I'm interested to hear your super opinion on how vn can defend the spratly from an all out air and naval assault from China. I'm sure all forum members will too.

 

[Silent Knight]

"Produce no indigenous arms", the discussion is pointless with those who do not have any idea about the subject these days.

Anyhow, the damaged Su-27SK back when it was in temporary storage.

 

[Aqsuperman]

Right, so u tell me what kind of military solution for u to be able to keep the Spratly without having the F-35 or the F-15 Silent Eagle? The answer is that u don't have a military solution. You don't have the technology edge or even the quantity to measure up to China.

You don't want a military alliance so u believe vn alone can beat china in a war over the spratly. I'm interested to hear your super opinion on how vn can defend the spratly from an all out air and naval assault from China. I'm sure all forum members will too.

Either you are have trouble reading or you just dont get through the point so lets slip it into 2 parts for you tiny gray matter to absorb it. Not to mention the relative stupid comment about the US weapon so let bright up your head a bit.

1/ Ngo Dinh Diem, heard of that guy ? 1 shot in the head just because ? Yeah , "a lab dog that rise against its owner" by my definition

2/ RVN way better ? Pfff want to compared dead and wounded ? 1945 - 1975 modafcker, 30 years with near full support from 2 member of UN Security Council and State of Vietnam and then RVN cant even keep their head straight and stand on your feet. You know why the US abandon South Vietnam and not South Korea? Because they know RVN is nothing more than a bunch of maggots that feed into their economic forever and will not result in anything good. Well just say that screaming for US military support every time RVN about to collapse sound really strong and dependable lol. in the entire Vietnam War, there was not a single direct foreign combat troops in the NVA ground rank, in the other hand there is nearly 1.5 millions allied troops ( Which around 65,000 eventually bite the dust),..........and they still cant win. Why ? "Oh because US withdraw their support so we cant "fight" as comfortably as before so we may just jump to Cali and continue to feed like leeches on the US budget". Pfff the captured RVN weapon support the united VN for another 20 years of war in the Southern border so wonder how the their origin owner keep screaming they cant fight.

3/Lol i just love the way your words backfire IN YOU FACE when you proudly claim that "not a single soul" will believe me :v US weapon ? Have them will be good, lose them wont be much of a hassle. The fact that the RVN die hard on US weapon get them kicked hard right in the testicle is a good prove of that. Russia junk ? Pfff love the tongue of a retarded comment on stuff that he cant even know. You ever lay your hand on a SA - 7 ? That guy blow up plenty of US Phantom and even AC-130, is it bad ? "Oh i dont know, all i have as biased comment about Us weapon" Want to go deeper and compare AK-47 and M-16 to see if you actually know about weapon ? Because with that almighty comment about Thailand Army i think you dont know crap about as long as the name sound "US - like"

People keep pointing what happen if VN dont join and "Will VN is able to stand alone" ? Yet no one one dare to give me a concrete answer for "IF VN join such an alliance, will US fully commit itself to us ?" Not facking sufficient answer around. Resisting China onslaught ? Pfff so you are saying by joining an alliance, US will stand with us to the end and not disappear when the dead count reach 60,000 ? 1971 US did hard to kill any communist, 1972 visit China and make pact, switch to kill the Soviet. The primary US enemy up until now is still Russia. You guys think that 2 UN security council will go to war to each other just because some "alliance" ? Possible if Japan or South Korea come into the mix but a country like that faraway ? Why ? Travel routes ? A few under the table negotiations is all it take, why war for a country that has nothing to do with you ? The question is never was and will never be " Can VN stand alone if not in an alliance" when you guys want to talk about alliance. The PRIMARY question is if going to stick more than a piece of paper and talks. Keep screaming that China will own us but also know that this alliance crap will just end up the same. US dont has the gut to punish North Korea militarily when him blow up a South Korean ship, so WHY he has to do anything more than some marginally "protests" if China take the entire spratly islands ? He will do what then if VN is in an alliance with him ? Blow shit up with another nuclear country that has 1/6th population of the world and take back our islands ? The moment someone came up with a answer for this i feel that i dont have to participate in this endless loop argument since no one here can guarantee anything.