Vietnam Defence Forum

[Viet]

Maybe one reason was that it not fitted with large heli hanger.

I dont know Talwar is even fitted with heli hanger or not. But it seems there is for small heli.

this ship is much more powerful than the gepard. for the same price. I see little reason why we don´t opt it.

 

[kaku1]

this ship is much more powerful than the gepard. for the same price. I see little reason why we don´t opt it.

There must be some reasons why Gepard is that much costly.

 

[Viet]

I don't know why there is no delivery schedule about the Sigmas, no announcements, nothing at all.

Snail speed is right, that's how government bureaucrats work.

let ask @Aqsuperman. do you know anything latest of the 2 sigma that we have ordered?

 

[Thao Nguyen]

I don't know why there is no delivery schedule about the Sigmas, no announcements, nothing at all.

Snail speed is right, that's how government bureaucrats work.

Sigma schedule last time i hear is 2017 and nothing change yet

And about why VN choose Gepard with minimum options, the cause start from BPS-500 scandal, after that there are one rule in VN for purchase waepon, that is we just chose the type which is prove the power in other country, not the new concept with unclear capability, that why VN choose Gepard instead of Tiger class, and one more thing you must understand that at the time VN purchase gerpad, there are only 3 gepards in Russian Navy, but their desgin also defferent with VN, after that gerpad type is started to improve, and some other class appear, that is normal. And we cannot compare 2 first gerpad with recent model is quite understandable because they did a lot of upgrade recently
for example:
Russian Navy gerpad: even don't have heli deck ( check on Dagestan ship)

and Vietnam

and 3rd and 4th even equip with toperdo system ( Parket- NK)
and gepard with new design( introduce in 2014 ??)

you can see there are a lot of upgrade, with 2 Palma and may be Shtil-SAM VLS

this ship is much more powerful than the gepard. for the same price. I see little reason why we don´t opt it.

Talwar is a new design, but i think the price cannot be about 250 mil $, it must be about 400-500 mil 4 for a 4000tons ship, when Vietnam start to purchase 4000 ton ship, it can be an option, but now is not yet
last time i check, Indian navt pay 3 bil $ for 3 talwars (may be with technology transfer)

 

[Carlosa]

Sigma schedule last time i hear is 2017 and nothing change yet

And about why VN choose Gepard with minimum options, the cause start from BPS-500 scandal, after that there are one rule in VN for purchase waepon, that is we just chose the type which is prove the power in other country, not the new concept with unclear capability, that why VN choose Gepard instead of Tiger class, and one more thing you must understand that at the time VN purchase gerpad, there are only 3 gepards in Russian Navy, but their desgin also defferent with VN, after that gerpad type is started to improve, and some other class appear, that is normal. And we cannot compare 2 first gerpad with recent model is quite understandable because they did a lot of upgrade recently
for example:
Russian Navy gerpad: even don't have heli deck ( check on Dagestan ship)

and Vietnam

and 3rd and 4th even equip with toperdo system ( Parket- NK)
and gepard with new design( introduce in 2014 ??)

you can see there are a lot of upgrade, with 2 Palma and may be Shtil-SAM VLS


Talwar is a new design, but i think the price cannot be about 250 mil $, it must be about 400-500 mil 4 for a 4000tons ship, when Vietnam start to purchase 4000 ton ship, it can be an option, but now is not yet
last time i check, Indian navt pay 3 bil $ for 3 talwars (may be with technology transfer)

Yes, I know all that, but the point that we are making here is that Vietnam has chosen a very weak ship and the second batch of the Gepards is still a very weak ship, although better than the first batch because of the ASW package.

Here is a picture of a Russian Gepard with a 12 cell Shtil VLS, this is not a recent version or an upgrade, I had this picture for 5 years. This would it have been a much better option and also the option of using Yakhont which was also available at that time.

The truth is, as I said earlier, Vietnam made a choice for a very simple ship on purpose because it wanted to reduce risk of another failure. That choice for a simple ship is what we are having an issue with. The Gepards are not up to the task of facing chinese ships. That's why the navy is not happy with them, but they will not say so in public of course.

Sigma schedule last time i hear is 2017 and nothing change yet

But that's not an official schedule by Damen right? That's a rumor.

 

[Thao Nguyen]

Yes, I know all that, but the point that we are making here is that Vietnam has chosen a very weak ship and the second batch of the Gepards is still a very weak ship, although better than the first batch because of the ASW package.

Here is a picture of a Russian Gepard with a 12 cell Shtil VLS, this is not a recent version or an upgrade, I had this picture for 5 years. This would it have been a much better option and also the option of using Yakhont which was also available at that time.

The truth is, as I said earlier, Vietnam made a choice for a very simple ship on purpose because it wanted to reduce risk of another failure. That choice for a simple ship is what we are having an issue with. The Gepards are not up to the task of facing chinese ships. That's why the navy is not happy with them, but they will not say so in public of course.

View attachment 226106

But that's not an official schedule by Damen right? That's a rumor.

commercial introduce to customer or concept?
and one more things is at that time VN even did not receive the first batch, so how did they now that the new capability of the new version, because this version even not used by any country, Vietnam order the second batch may be in 2013, so even if the new design appear, they must have time to prove the capability to customer, right?
just wait and see the 5th ship and I think you can see the improvement,
the same story about why VN choose Su-30 SM instead of Su-35, because India Airforce already appreciate them
Damen is quite quieted about this, even about the purchase order of VN, they just said 2 ship deliver in 2017, so we can not have official information

 

[kaku1]

Talwar is a new design, but i think the price cannot be about 250 mil $, it must be about 400-500 mil 4 for a 4000tons ship, when Vietnam start to purchase 4000 ton ship, it can be an option, but now is not yet
last time i check, Indian navt pay 3 bil $ for 3 talwars (may be with technology transfer)

India signed the contract of 3 Frigates for $1bn in 1997, and again for $1 bn in 2005 for 3 more.

Dont fall in Russian Newspaper shit, like this
India to spend $3 billion for 3 more Talwar-class frigates | Russia & India Report

India never ordered more Talwar, they lobbying hard for Advance Talwar that cost $1 bn per ship. But India is not idiot that much, to order a shit ship for $1 bn, when you have capability to create in house.

Instead, India going for P-17A instead, that cost around $700-$900 mil each.

 

[Carlosa]

commercial introduce to customer or concept?
and one more things is at that time VN even did not receive the first batch, so how did they now that the new capability of the new version, because this version even not used by any country, Vietnam order the second batch may be in 2013, so even if the new design appear, they must have time to prove the capability to customer, right?
just wait and see the 5th ship and I think you can see the improvement,
the same story about why VN choose Su-30 SM instead of Su-35, because India Airforce already appreciate them
Damen is quite quieted about this, even about the purchase order of VN, they just said 2 ship deliver in 2017, so we can not have official information

Probably a concept, but the Shtil is not a new weapon system anyway. I understand man, but if Vietnam wants to have a decent chance to go against China, it really needs better hardware, otherwise the ships will just have to stay on port. In my view, after making the decision for simple ships with the first batch, I think the second batch needed something much better, at least the Yakhont which is already a proven system.

I do hope that the third batch will really be much better, but also all these Russian made ships are coming too slowly. Things are heating up in SCS and if Vietnam has to fight tomorrow, things are not looking good.

There is a lot that can be said for the sake of only buying proven weapon systems, but on the other hand, that will leave you with inferior tech, I think sometimes, in some areas, need to take some calculated risks in order to better match the opponent, but anyway, it is what it is, we'll see how things go.

India signed the contract of 3 Frigates for $1bn in 1997, and again for $1 bn in 2005 for 3 more.

Dont fall in Russian Newspaper shit, like this
India to spend $3 billion for 3 more Talwar-class frigates | Russia & India Report

India never ordered more Talwar, they lobbying hard for Advance Talwar that cost $1 bn per ship. But India is not idiot that much, to order a shit ship for $1 bn, when you have capability to create in house.

Instead, India going for P-17A instead, that cost around $700-$900 mil each.

Well said. Vietnam should it have followed the Indian approach rather than just taking the scraps that Russia offered.
The Talwar was already a proven concept and a much better weapon system, so why not? That's why I said that there is either incompetence or corruption in the decision making process of Vietnam. At least the Kilo subs was a good decision.

 

[kaku1]

Well said. Vietnam should it have followed the Indian approach rather than just taking the scraps that Russia offered.
The Talwar was already a proven concept and a much better weapon system, so why not? That's why I said that there is either incompetence or corruption in the decision making process of Vietnam. At least the Kilo subs was a good decision.

Yes Vietnam actually need a true frigate, and actually I mean a true frigate.

Something like, Formidable Class, by which atleast enemy feel threatened.

 

[Carlosa]

India signed the contract of 3 Frigates for $1bn in 1997, and again for $1 bn in 2005 for 3 more.

Dont fall in Russian Newspaper shit, like this
India to spend $3 billion for 3 more Talwar-class frigates | Russia & India Report

India never ordered more Talwar, they lobbying hard for Advance Talwar that cost $1 bn per ship. But India is not idiot that much, to order a shit ship for $1 bn, when you have capability to create in house.

Instead, India going for P-17A instead, that cost around $700-$900 mil each.

Well said. Vietnam should it have followed Indian approach rather than just taking the scraps that Russia offered.
The Talwar was already a proven concept and a much better weapon system, so why not? That's why I said that there is either incompetence or corruption in the decision making process of Vietnam. At least the Kilo subs was a good decision.

Yes Vietnam actually need a true frigate, and actually I mean a true frigate.

Something like, Formidable Class, by which atleast enemy feel threatened.

I totally agree, going half way with these ships that in the end they have to stay in port because they can't survive an encounter with the chinese, its a waste of money and is too little too late. What's the point to spend $350 million on a ship that only has 8 KH-35s and a Palma? That will not do anything.

Better to get an smaller number of ships that will be more expensive, but at least they have a better fighting chance.

For simple, cheaper ships, the Molniya class is fine, its good for its role as a fast ship to sneak in, hit hard and run away. After that, it has to be real frigates as you said.

 

[Thao Nguyen]

India signed the contract of 3 Frigates for $1bn in 1997, and again for $1 bn in 2005 for 3 more.

Dont fall in Russian Newspaper shit, like this
India to spend $3 billion for 3 more Talwar-class frigates | Russia & India Report

India never ordered more Talwar, they lobbying hard for Advance Talwar that cost $1 bn per ship. But India is not idiot that much, to order a shit ship for $1 bn, when you have capability to create in house.

Instead, India going for P-17A instead, that cost around $700-$900 mil each.

yes, but it price cannot be cheap like 200 or 300 mil $ for a total ship right

Probably a concept, but the Shtil is not a new weapon system anyway. I understand man, but if Vietnam wants to have a decent chance to go against China, it really needs better hardware, otherwise the ships will just have to stay on port. In my view, after making the decision for simple ships with the first batch, I think the second batch needed something much better, at least the Yakhont which is already a proven system.

I do hope that the third batch will really be much better, but also all these Russian made ships are coming too slowly. Things are heating up in SCS and if Vietnam has to fight tomorrow, things are not looking good.

There is a lot that can be said for the sake of only buying proven weapon systems, but on the other hand, that will leave you with inferior tech, I think sometimes, in some areas, need to take some calculated risks in order to better match the opponent, but anyway, it is what it is, we'll see how things go.

yes, but the experiences of making decision of purchasing weapon usually come when they use the weapon, Vietnam never making these weapons yet, so it must take time for us to understand every thing, beside, there is another idea about chose the not - most - update weapon is Russia can transfer the tech so that we can make them domestically, for example, Russia can not give Vietnam tech to make yakhont with a cheap price, because they are now selling them with price about 2- 5 mil$/ each, so if we want tech transfer, that will cost a lot of money and we can not adapt like India
We knew that Russia is slow, that why we are not only rely on them
Damen Song Cam is one example, use Holland technology to speed up Vietnam technology, may be later we can make Gerpad or Sigma in Vietnam, and we can upgrade them to most advanced technology, or build our own ship class

 

[Carlosa]

yes, but it price cannot be cheap like 200 or 300 mil $ for a total ship right


yes, but the experiences of making decision of purchasing weapon usually come when they use the weapon, Vietnam never making these weapons yet, so it must take time for us to understand every thing, beside, there is another idea about chose the not - most - update weapon is Russia can transfer the tech so that we can make them domestically, for example, Russia can not give Vietnam tech to make yakhont with a cheap price, because they are now selling them with price about 2- 5 mil$/ each, so if we want tech transfer, that will cost a lot of money and we can not adapt like India
We knew that Russia is slow, that why we are not only rely on them
Damen Song Cam is one example, use Holland technology to speed up Vietnam technology, may be later we can make Gerpad or Sigma in Vietnam, and we can upgrade them to most advanced technology, or build our own ship class

Yes, that's a good point. Vietnam needs to get away from depending so much on Russia for ships. Even Putin criticized the slow naval build up, that's one area where Russia is really having problems. For submarines its quite ok, but surface ships its super slow.

The Sigma is better than the Gepard. but still falls short of what is really needed in my opinion.

Vietnam is taking a very slow, long approach, I understand that, that's ok during peacetime, but the problem is that Vietnam might not have much time, things are heating up.

yes, but it price cannot be cheap like 200 or 300 mil $ for a total ship right

Well, he said 1 billion for 3 ships, that's 330 million each, that could be possible, India can build ships quite cheap actually and they make the sonars, guns and much of the equipment themselves.

Have to see more details, but that could be a good option for Vietnam.

As Russian ships go, the frigate Admiral Gorshkov for 450 million, now that's a really good ship, 4500 tons, very good weapon systems. To pay 350 million for a Gepard or a Sigma is a waste of money compared to the Admiral Gorshkov frigate.

 

[Echo_419]

Yes, that's a good point. Vietnam needs to get away from depending so much on Russia for ships. Even Putin criticized the slow naval build up, that's one area where Russia is really having problems. For submarines its quite ok, but surface ships its super slow.

The Sigma is better than the Gepard. but still falls short of what is really needed in my opinion.

Vietnam is taking a very slow, long approach, I understand that, that's ok during peacetime, but the problem is that Vietnam might not have much time, things are heating up.



Well, he said 1 billion for 3 ships, that's 330 million each, that could be possible, India can build ships quite cheap actually and they make the sonars, guns and much of the equipment themselves.

Have to see more details, but that could be a good option for Vietnam.

As Russian ships go, the frigate Admiral Gorshkov for 450 million, now that's a really good ship, 4500 tons, very good weapon systems. To pay 350 million for a Gepard or a Sigma is a waste of money compared to the Admiral Gorshkov frigate.

I agree with you Russian ship building industry in not in the best shape right now

 

[Viet]

I agree with you Russian ship building industry in not in the best shape right now

the russians are good at building subs, but need ages to build surface ships, and whose ships they build are not on par with western and japan counterparts. I wonder why?

@senheiser

Damen Song Cam is one example, use Holland technology to speed up Vietnam technology, may be later we can make Gerpad or Sigma in Vietnam, and we can upgrade them to most advanced technology, or build our own ship class

yes, that is a very right approach. one side note, in the video the General Manager says the Vietnam Damen shipyard can construct 40 vessels a year.

 

[Carlosa]

the russians are good at building subs, but need ages to build surface ships, and whose ships they build are not on par with western and japan counterparts. I wonder why?.

Because of the fall of the soviet union. Many shipyards are now in other countries, many parts such as propulsion systems are now in Ukraine. In many ways Russia is rebuilding the industry almost from scratch. The submarine shipyards on the other hand stayed in Russia and survived so they can do ok work now.