Video of Uighur poet from a re-education (concentration) camp.

[TaiShang]

...
Here, you have my comment as a Pakistani.

...

China and Pakistan are strategic partners and this relationship is well embodied within the SCO, in which Pakistan is a permanent observer.

The cooperation at the SCO suggests that China and Pakistan as strategic partners agree to cooperate and coordinate their efforts to fight three evils: terrorism, extremism and separatism.

Thus, China and Pakistan have built significant mutual trust. As a country that has been suffering from radical Islamist terrorism and extremist ethnicism, probably Pakistan is one of the few countries (with no ultimate geopolitical agenda against China unlike the US that harbors and supports separatist terrorism against rival nations) that understands and appreciates China's efforts. A safe Central Asia/Western China also means a safer Pakistan.

China-Pakistan cooperation and coordination at the SCO and beyond will continue regardless of outsider sentimentalism. In the end, everybody has their own geopolitical agendas.

I do not think Turkey's geopolitical agenda in Central Asia fits with that of Pakistan. In fact, it is against the interests of Pakistan. There is no reason why Pakistan would sacrifice its own interests for the sake of Turkey's interests.

Remember, when the US was killing Pakistani civilians through extra-judicial drone strikes during Obama era, Turkey was having great relations and nobody questioned their NATO partnership.

If Turkey would not sacrifice its interests within the NATO and the US camp in general for Pakistan for an issue that had everything to do with Pakistan, why would Pakistan do it for Turkey now for an issue that has nothing to do with Turkey?

 

[MMM-E]

Remember, when the US was killing Pakistani civilians through extra-judicial drone strikes during Obama era, Turkey was having great relations and nobody questioned their NATO partnership.

Pakistan was global partner of NATO
and Pakistan welcomed the US to fight terrorism

There is no reason why Pakistan would sacrifice its own interests for the sake of Turkey's interests.

on the other hand there is reason why Turkey sacrifice its own interests for the sake of Palestinians , Pakis, Uyghurs , Somalians , etc

because of the Turks are real muslims

 

[lonelyman]

This isn't a religious issue, and no matter how hard some try to make it, it won't become one. This is an ethnic and humanitarian issue, with China clamping down on ethnic dissent and separatism.

That said, I disagree with all oppression and violence. The Uighurs should be allowed to freely practice their cultural and religious obligations. Inhumane and arbitrary detention is condemnable. China and Turkey should sit together and come up with a solution to the Uighur question, instead of firing off statements as useful as hot air balloons, like the Turkish government is doing.



And where were you when extremist Uighurs, allied with TTP and Al Qaeda, were beheading Pakistani soldiers, attacking our military installations and murdering innocent tribals in Waziristan?

Look my friend, why should China give a shit and sit together with Turks for an internal China issue, uhigurs are Chinese citizens.

Except hot balloon shit like you said, what can Turks do except few months ago they come at door step begging for Chinese loan.

Did we give a shit what USA says about us when we were thousands of times weaker 40 years ago, we are the only country who fought both Soviets and Americans militarily in the past.

Now tell me, what is turkey to China today? Who will get hurt hundreds of times more worse if gloves really come off.

 

[Nilgiri]

LOST YOUR COOL AND STARTED BANNING CHINESE PDF USERS HERE, GREAT.

He gave you lot plenty of warnings. Yet you troll lot kept coming back for more. What you think is going to happen to that clear troll "Beast". He got rightly smacked. Serves him right. He has been trolling all over the forum for a while now.

I am cool. Do not worry about it. Just watch your saying for so called genocide stories. Turkish section is not a plce where Chinese delusional troll team regularly come here to insult my country wth fake genocide stories. The members are warned at their first attempt. Second and third attempts will meet with no mercy...

Good job. They seem to think they can keep doing this anywhere and everywhere. Turkish subsection is pretty much only place they get put in their place when they go too far....because it has its own mod. Other subsections are not so lucky sadly...and it takes mass reporting and even then nothing often happens to trolls like this. It is good there is some comeuppance somewhere.

Guys, for now on ignor the chinese troll members, they are financied by ther goverment. You can pick up wich one is a troll and not a troll with ther stupid logic comparing things. So watch out and chill...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party

I have downgraded them to 5 and 10 cents lol. 50 cents is when they start being worth a little of my time lol.

 

[Nilgiri]

Here ladies and gentlemen we see live why the Chinese regime does what it does. When there are terrorists then the population gets punished collectively or mass murdered like in history, hear it from the mouth of a Chinese ultra natinalistic nutjob.
But when we speak about it we become the China haters.

No one (even most chinese members) takes Feng Leng seriously. He is mentally unstable.

Just search "nuclear" and "railgun" with his name next to it to see what I mean:

https://defence.pk/pdf/search/15571488/?q=nuclear&o=date&c[user][0]=186492

https://defence.pk/pdf/search/15571496/?q=railgun&o=date&c[user][0]=186492

The first thing he does whenever some country opposes China is call for them to be nuked. The guy is off his meds or something.

@Hamartia Antidote @KAL-EL

I only respond to more reasonable Chinese members, when they accuse me of "hating" China just because I criticize the "regime" as you call it:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/whatever.46703/page-5229#post-11162356

Keep stirring the shit, job well done, Indian.

Keep crying negative 9. Not even worth 5 cent cheque lol.

 

[cabatli_53]

@Valar. warning issued gfor insulting Turkish Republic...

 

[TaiShang]

Pakistan was global partner of NATO
and Pakistan welcomed the US to fight terrorism

Pakistan opposed to the drone strikes. There was never an explicit consent on part of Pakistan to the use of drones on its soil. It also did not ask for help to restore law and order in its border regions. Quite contrary, civilian authorities have staged protests on every occasion against drone killings.

There is a major study on the question of Pakistani consent and the legality of US drone strikes in Pakistan. You may check on it:

Sean D. Murphy, “The Legality of US Military Cross-Border Operations from Afghanistan into Pakistan,” The George Washington University Law School Public Law and Legal Theory Working Paper 451, (2009): 19.

Pakistan was never a global partner to the NATO in any context.

Turkey was, and more than one occassion.

For instance, during the bombing of Libya, Turkey stood by the NATO partners (although objected the campaign initially).

Pakistan suffered immensely from the radical Islamist terrorism and ethnic separatism, as well as from the US-led war on terror campaign. Hence, peace and stability in Central Asia is to the best of interest of Pakistan.

This is the reason it is a permanent observer at the SCO. Without accepting the SCO Charter, it is not possible to become an observer.

on the other hand there is reason why Turkey sacrifice its own interests for the sake of Palestinians , Pakis, Uyghurs , Somalians , etc

because of the Turks are real muslims

How does Turkey sacrifice its own interests? As far as I know Turkey is not one of the Islamic countries that cut diplomatic and/or trade relations with Israel.

Furthermore, if there were not leftist/secular opposition in your national assembly, your Islamist party was going to open up the country for the US military stationing right before the Second Gulf War.

This is realpolitik. Pakistan is not a country to toy with via sentimental, ideological rhetoric.

 

[MMM-E]

Pakistan was never a global partner to the NATO in any context.

Pakistan was a global partner to the NATO to fight terrorism ,,, our Pakistani brothers very well knows about it
The US , The UK and Saudi Arabia created so-called radical Islamist terrorism AL QAEDA,ISIS,HTS,etc
and Pakistan is victim

btw the US is in Afghanistan because of to block oil-gas pipeline projects between Iran and China via Afghanistan
also the US will support Balochistan to block oil-gas pipeline projects between Iran and China via Pakistan

Furthermore, if there were not leftist/secular opposition in your national assembly, your Islamist party was going to open up the country for the US military stationing right before the Second Gulf War.

if there were not American puppet FETO members in AKP ,, Turkish Armed Forces would enter Iraq in 2003 and the US would not create terror coridor in N.Iraq

How does Turkey sacrifice its own interests?

-- Turkey has bad relationship with Israel , the EU even the US ,, because of Turkey support Palestine
( Turkey is under attack since 2010 by the US , Israel and the EU and Turkey lost over $500 billion )

-- Turkey has no good relationship with India ,, because of Turkey support Pakistan
( India has huge population including 250 millions of muslims ...... and great trade potential worth $100 billion )

 

[TaiShang]

btw the US is in Afghanistan because of to block oil-gas pipeline projects between Iran and China via Afghanistan
also the US will support Balochistan to block oil-gas pipeline projects between Iran and China via Pakistan

I definitely agree.

if there were not American puppet FETO members in AKP ,, Turkish Armed Forces would enter Iraq in 2003 and the US would not create terror coridor in N.Iraq

The motion at the National Assembly was not to allow Turkey's army to enter Iraq, but, to allow the US forces to station their troops in Turkey from which to stage their attacks into Iraq.

In fact, I remember from my research that the US was so confident the motion would pass that they had already begun to set up some installations in a region bordering Iraq.

But, thanks to the peace-loving leftist opposition, the motion failed, and the US packed up and left (for Gulf).

Those who were in favor of US troop stationing in Turkey was all the (Islamist) party members in power. You say 264 AKP members were all FETO?

***

Turkey rejects U.S. troop proposal

Sunday, March 2, 2003 Posted: 0249 GMT (10:49 AM HKT)

ANKARA, Turkey (CNN) -- Turkey's parliament failed to pass a proposal Saturday to allow more than 60,000 U.S. troops to operate from Turkish bases and ports in the event of a war with Iraq.

The parliament adjourned after an initial vote showed 264 lawmakers favoring the measure -- three fewer than needed for passage -- 250 opposing and 19 abstaining.

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/01/sprj.irq.main/

***

-- Turkey has bad relationship with Israel , the EU even the US ,, because of Turkey support Palestine

Not necessarily. The real support to Palestine comes from (and sacrifice made by) Iran.

Your President even disowned those who had boarded the ship to Gaza Strip and then raided by the Israeli Armed Forces.

Turkey has no good relationship with India ,, because of Turkey support Pakistan

I think Turkey and India enjoy normal diplomatic and trade relations. If your trade is not as much as you liked, that's probably because your economy is heavily geared toward trade with Europe and the US.

Check your main trade partners.

 

[WarDaddy97]

Taisheng why are you confusing people here?
4th ID was suppose to cross into Iraq from Turkey, link up with Kurdish peshmerga and march to Baghdad. At the same time, 1stMarDiv along with 3rd ID marched from Kuwait, reached 2 main highways, split up and pushed towards Baghdad. Brits and Poles blocked Basra and Umm Qasar from land and sea.
Erdogan from day 1 vehemently opposed our operation. As a result 4th never deployed to Turkey. Instead 75th Rangers along with some SF units parachuted into northern Iraq and operated along with Kurds.
As a results the war lasted 3 weeks instead of 1-2.
US Army would never ever permanently set the base in Turkey. We have Incirlik and that’s more than enough and we have multiple bases in Kuwait and KSA. Your claim is utterly false and misleading.
USA are in Afghanistan to block gas pipes? . Lolz. Dude, you get gas from Turkmenistan and Russia. In 2019 you will double gas import from Kazakhstan. On top of that China imports LNG from Australia and Qatar bypassing Japan. And you do import oil from Iran. last thing you need is to build a pipeline from Iran thru lawlessness of Afghanistan

 

[Dungeness]

Big Brother is watching.

 

[serenity]

This thread has become degraded by everyone trying to badmouth each other just for sake of playing for each teams. Everyone did bad things in past. Student protest massacre. Bad policy from Cultural Revolution too. But important things to remember there is those are not intentional genocide. Just very bad policy, terrible organization of police force for the students and numbers were no where near the given figures... they say millions killed also some say hundreds of thousands killed. My family were there. Some members were in the student groups and they all oppose government but they say no army gunned down even thousands. They can't say for sure about how many but any number over a thousand is questionable at least. For famine, that is different to genocide. Bad planning does not mean intention to murder millions. Different conclusions and lesson to be learned. Turkey is also bad in past and the muslims have been invaders and the bad guys throughout history in whole central asia region too. As well as the others. Let's just back off from the name calling.

I understand this issue with Uighur minority in China is a deeply sensitive one for both sides. Uighurs are officially considered Chinese by China and most of the international community. I'm not aware of any country accepting Uighur independent nation officially. That doesn't mean they don't deserve it. But also consider from Chinese POV. The government will NEVER allow it. They fear it can be weaponized against them by outside groups. Like Chechnya was weaponized against USSR. Pakistan split after Indian independence from Britain was weaponized. China understands the geopolitical game. It is good to have decent official relations with Turkey and Turkey seems to want that too because it benefits them. It is terrible for China to allow an East Turkistan nation that can become a source of headache in future with border conflicts and used to degrade relations with Middle Eastern countries and Turkey.

But now it's important to consider the treatment of the people. If it is true what is said about Communist government murdering muslims and arresting them without evidence, let's think if that is realistic. What benefit does it give the government to murder otherwise innocent people? and then also risk other people finding out and causing problems. So okay if the murder is true, then must have some reasons. Let's see if there's evidence. So far nothing. Okay maybe it's because it is hidden very well. We know the detention of people is true. We don't really know if the claimed numbers are true. This will require proof but that is of course very hard. Now why would the government lock people for no reason? Certainly there are something going on. The government's official statements say they do have prisons and camps. They deny the hundreds of thousands numbers locked up. This is understandable because they probably cannot afford to lock up that many. Half of cities and towns will be empty if that is true. Who knows what the real number is. Now they also say it is because of suspected terror activities or planning. That is to give an excuse. If it is true, this is a good excuse because most non-Islamic peoples are very anti-extremists and the extremists are so irrational. Look at every other country and the right wing move in Europe and USA. What is wrong though is if the government is locking up people only for suspicions and to "re-educate" them and force assimilating into more Chinese way of life. I personally think this is wrong. I do not know if it is truly wrong or if the ends justify the means like debate of authoritariansm and so called benevolent dictator vs pure unfiltered freedom.

But humans are just like this. We can never avoid hate and conflict. I do something wrong and then everyone shouts at me. Then someone else does something wrong, we all shout at him but he thinks otherwise. No nation or human is free from evil and free from crimes in past and present. We do not need to call each other out. We are all guilty of bad things but the more we call each other out, the more we each act irrationally and up the intolerance. We don't know if this guy really is being tortured. His supporters will emotionally assume he already is. His persecutors will immediately assume he is guilty of something. This will always cause division and conflict between these two groups. WE don't know the full story. Judgement, hate, and anger only returns the same. Don't be surprised when it does. We will destroy each other if we don't find a way out. You can say he is a innocent badly treated by an evil government or maybe there is a slight chance a government doesn't waste resources and bad publicity to play stupid games like locking up innocents and maybe there is a chance this guy is somehow suspicious.

Real life and politics and decisions is not like this forum. Where people here only come to feed emotions and argue. You will probably not read anything long or only find confirmation bias. Real calm rational discussion is what solves problems. Forums like this cause them or make things worse. Most sides here are just looking for a fight or to hurt others because they feel like they have been hurt by others. Those of you will skip everything and only read the material that feeds this cycle. This is why so many think human beings are doomed and are born sinners.

@Nilgiri What do you think?

 

[T-123456]

I understand this issue with Uighur minority in China is a deeply sensitive one for both sides. Uighurs are officially considered Chinese by China and most of the international community. I'm not aware of any country accepting Uighur independent nation officially. That doesn't mean they don't deserve it. But also consider from Chinese POV. The government will NEVER allow it. They fear it can be weaponized against them by outside groups. Like Chechnya was weaponized against USSR. Pakistan split after Indian independence from Britain was weaponized. China understands the geopolitical game. It is good to have decent official relations with Turkey and Turkey seems to want that too because it benefits them. It is terrible for China to allow an East Turkistan nation that can become a source of headache in future with border conflicts and used to degrade relations with Middle Eastern countries and Turkey.

We never asked for independence of the Uyghurs,our problem is how your government treats the Uyghurs.
Over a million in re-education camps,really?
A million extremists?
Your people keep blaming us for training extremists and sending them to China which is as im sure you know is not true.
These extremists are sent by al-Caida,HTS,Taliban etc,all originated from the KSA.
You never blamed them,did you?

But humans are just like this. We can never avoid hate and conflict. I do something wrong and then everyone shouts at me. Then someone else does something wrong, we all shout at him but he thinks otherwise. No nation or human is free from evil and free from crimes in past and present. We do not need to call each other out. We are all guilty of bad things but the more we call each other out, the more we each act irrationally and up the intolerance. We don't know if this guy really is being tortured. His supporters will emotionally assume he already is. His persecutors will immediately assume he is guilty of something. This will always cause division and conflict between these two groups. WE don't know the full story. Judgement, hate, and anger only returns the same. Don't be surprised when it does. We will destroy each other if we don't find a way out. You can say he is a innocent badly treated by an evil government or maybe there is a slight chance a government doesn't waste resources and bad publicity to play stupid games like locking up innocents and maybe there is a chance this guy is somehow suspicious

If i have nothing to hide,i show you and i explain what how and why.
But i don and never did,what does this say about me?
You seem reasonable.

 

[Fenasi Kerim]

We never asked for independence of the Uyghurs,our problem is how your government treats the Uyghurs.
Over a million in re-education camps,really?
A million extremists?
Your people keep blaming us for training extremists and sending them to China which is as im sure you know is not true.
These extremists are sent by al-Caida,HTS,Taliban etc,all originated from the KSA.
You never blamed them,did you?

The Pakistanis here always say “consider the Chinese POV” and “Uighur terrorists” and “games of Zionist’s”, “what has turkey done”

Flip it to Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq or Kashmir they (members) would call for for WW3.

We are not evening saying here that the Pakistani government should do anything, they can’t, but the question is why are the people, the “ummah” brothers so supportive of Chinese oppression, downplaying the atrocities being committed. That’s the irony part.

This is why I tell the Turkish members here to stop falling for dost ulke Pakistan bullshit, we have damaged our relations with regional countries for the same people who loose thier voice when it comes to China and Russia but are abhorrent when India or Israel is in question.

 

[serenity]

We never asked for independence of the Uyghurs,our problem is how your government treats the Uyghurs.
Over a million in re-education camps,really?
A million extremists?
Your people keep blaming us for training extremists and sending them to China which is as im sure you know is not true.
These extremists are sent by al-Caida,HTS,Taliban etc,all originated from the KSA.
You never blamed them,did you?

If i have nothing to hide,i show you and i explain what how and why.
But i don and never did,what does this say about me?
You reasonable.

Yes I do not believe there are over a million can be called extremists. Only said that because so many different numbers western media puts for people in camps. I do believe the government wants to "re-educate" many. The numbers could be whatever. This happened in past to Han Chinese and really anyone that needs to become more in line with government's wishes.

KSA is Saudi Arabia? Yes I agree with you. China is very silent on Saudi Arabia. Everyone is and it is very strange. But please be aware China do not say Turkey the country is responsible for extremists in China. We are told Islamists extremist teachings are those responsible. The never said those ideas and financing come from USA, Israel, Turkey, or Saudi. They don't want to point fingers because pointing fingers often gets finger pointer in trouble.

So we don't blame Turkey and still support Turkey internationally. Even if we are neutral and keep out of Syria and Kurdish matters. No word on Armenia either. None of that is our place to talk and judge or act. Maybe the world will be better if people did but maybe it's worse. Who knows. Anyway in that regard, China is opposite way to USA.

About the camps, I honestly don't know. We all know camps exist. They exist in early days of communism in China and much of nation had experienced very obvious propaganda. These days the method are more efficient than those stupid methods before but I guess for problem regions, the older method is still around. But this is when I'm guessing what goes on. Just assuming like most people here. Do we think torture is effective re-education. Definitely not. But of course, in China we are told that sacrificing personal freedom is often necessary and forced. Doesn't matter who you are. Muslims who are considered dangerous may be forced to go through things that will seem horrible to western standards like refusing to let people practice their religion and banning certain books or churches. To Chinese, our approach is so different because our history is has been so brutal, we think these small things are nothing too serious but of course another person will believe it is everything. So this is why I believe re-education camps exist, they do not have so many prisoners like mentioned. They probably are not very violent, I hope and truly think so because it achieves nothing. But their purpose is clear. Find individuals government think are dangerous and remove them from society to undergo some programs. I don't think they understand how religion works. I doubt re-education can remove a man's conviction about whatever divine thing they believe in whether the man is buddhist, christian, muslim, hindu, or whatever religion.

The Uighur group issue within China is a problem. Social engineering can apply many tools to fix but nothing is nice or good or easy. Many hard dirty times to fix problems but I believe the government thinks this problem is a real threat to western region and stability of this whole region including all those central asia countries and western China. On one side government treats Uighurs like anyone else. Otherside is government paying very close attention and using harsh law. Don't measure China by western country social standards and expectation. We don't have the luxury and have many messy problems to solve and overcome. I personally think this issue shows how communism authoritarianism do not tolerate any other forms of authority. They are like competitors and religions are a form of authoritarianism. I cannot explain well because of my language and the already very long post but maybe you understand what I am trying to say. This is also why Fa Lun Gong had issues with Communist government, mafia crime gangs too in past and any other powerful movement or group that tells their members what to think and do. Religion does this.