Victor Yanukovych to testify via video conference on Novermber 25 2016

[Hindustani78]

More possible variant of future UN P3 Council - Russia, China, USA..

United States of America have already hinted about expansion of UNSC here Russian Federation and China are having thier reservations.

Republic of India and Republic of Turkey will be inducted into UNSC as both are having support of majority of nations.

I'll repeat once again - Ukraine is not waging war against the Russian Federation. By law, Ukraine is not declared war on Russia. Ukraine has not declared martial law in the country. Ukraine declared just an anti-terrorist operation. That is the reality. Ukraine and Russia are not at war.
And why are you against the will of Crimean people? They are with the Motherland now, they are at home. Please, leave them alone

State of Emergency was declared in Ukraine during the crisis of Crimea, Donetsk, Lughask around 2013/2014.

War is already going on and even the violations of Minsk agreements have been registered.

 

[vostok]

United States of America have already hinted about expansion of UNSC here Russian Federation and China are having thier reservations.

Republic of India and Republic of Turkey will be inducted into UNSC as both are having support of majority of nations.

Sure buddy, sure.

State of Emergency was declared in Ukraine during the crisis of Crimea, Donetsk, Lughask around 2013/2014.

War is already going on and even the violations of Minsk agreements have been registered.

State of Emergency? A few years ago there were strong frosts, and state of emergency was declared. When Ukraine will declare the war to somebody or at least will declare martial law - let me know. Then, some sense will appear in such discussion.

 

[Hindustani78]

State of Emergency? A few years ago there were strong frosts, and state of emergency was declared. When Ukraine will declare the war to somebody or at least will declare martial law - let me know. Then, some sense will appear in such discussion.

State of emergency was declared during the events in crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk.

Even now situation is not so good in Eastern Ukraine.

 

[LA se Karachi]

And why are you against the will of Crimean people? They are with the Motherland now, they are at home. Please, leave them alone.

Well, what about the will of the people in eastern Ukraine (or Chechnya/Dagestan)? Leave them alone too.

 

[vostok]

Well, what about the will of the people in eastern Ukraine (or Chechnya/Dagestan)? Leave them alone too.

People in eastern Ukraine want reunification with Russia, it was expressed in a referendum in 2014. And they always wanted. All the presidents of Ukraine, who were chosen legal, rather than after the coup won because they promised to return the Russian language its status and to integrate with Russia.

 

[LA se Karachi]

People in eastern Ukraine want reunification with Russia, it was expressed in a referendum in 2014.

Lol, there was no "referendum". Only some box stuffing that relatively few people (almost all of whom were separatists) participated in.

But since you like referendums (I do too), how about we hold an actual one administered by the UN (with observers from all around the world), in which the vast majority of the people living in those areas actually participate in. But only if you agree to ones in Crimea and Chechnya/Dagestan too, of course.

 

[vostok]

Lol, there was no "referendum". Only some box stuffing that relatively few people (almost all of whom were separatists) participated in.

But since you like referendums (I do too), how about we hold an actual one administered by the UN (with observers from all around the world), in which the vast majority of the people living in those areas actually participate in. But only if you agree to ones in Crimea and Chechnya/Dagestan too, of course.

I am surprised that you do not believe that about half of Ukraine do not support the European integration but support reunification with Russia.
If the United States was devided in 1991, it would not be surprise for me that a large part of the population of the breakaway republics would be willing for reunification.
The separatists are not in Donetsk or Lugansk separatists are in Kiev.
It is illegal power in Kiev that want to separate territory and people of Ukraine from Russia. Residents of eastern Ukraine on the contrary, want reunification with Motherland.

 

[LA se Karachi]

The separatists are not in Donetsk or Lugansk separatists are in Kiev.

Considering most of Ukraine is not Donetsk or Luhansk, only the pro-Russian militias there can be considered separatists.

It is illegal power in Kiev that want to separate territory and people of Ukraine from Russia. Residents of eastern Ukraine on the contrary, want reunification with Motherland.

The people of Ukraine decided to separate themselves from the Soviet Union (along with almost every other non-Russian ethnic group).

Just because some people in Ukraine support closer relations and more cooperation with Russia, does not mean that they want their country to be annexed by it. There's a big difference.

I am surprised that you do not believe that about half of Ukraine do not support the European integration but support reunification with Russia.

I'm surprised that you do. There are a few that do, but nowhere near half. There's a reason Russia only annexed Crimea.

If a referendum were to be held, likely the best Russia would do is gain the Russian ethnic areas. That is Crimea, the cities of Donetsk and Luhansk (and a few surrounding areas):

Whatever their political beliefs, at the end of the day, the almost all of the people are Ukrainian, not Russian:

I'm all for UN administered plebiscite to resolve the issue though. As long as you agree to one in Crimea and Chechnya/Dagestan too, of course.

 

[vostok]

Considering most of Ukraine is not Donetsk or Luhansk, only the pro-Russian militias there can be considered separatists.




The people of Ukraine decided to separate themselves from the Soviet Union (along with almost every other non-Russian ethnic group).

Just because some people in Ukraine support closer relations and more cooperation with Russia, does not mean that they want their country to be annexed by it. There's a big difference.




I'm surprised that you do. There are a few that do, but nowhere near half. There's a reason Russia only annexed Crimea.

If a referendum were to be held, likely the best Russia would do is gain the Russian ethnic areas. That is Crimea, the cities of Donetsk and Luhansk (and a few surrounding areas):

Whatever their political beliefs, at the end of the day, the almost all of the people are Ukrainian, not Russian:

I'm all for UN administered plebiscite to resolve the issue though. As long as you agree to one in Crimea and Chechnya/Dagestan too, of course.

You should understand that the Russian Federation also leave the Soviet Union, as well as the other republics. They had to sign a new Union Treaty - the Union of Independent States. However, thanks to Yeltsin and other traitors was created Commonwealth of Independent States - that is, the peoples of the former USSR have been deceived.
To understand the situation with pro-Russian sentiments, it is necessary to look beyond the ethnic card - they are pretty relative, as many Russian in Ukraine write nationality "Ukrainian", as many Ukrainians in Russia write nationality "Russian." Until Communism in 1917, Ukrainians were officially called "Little Russians", just as the Belarusians ("White Russian") are still called.
In 2014 in all the cities of Eastern Ukraine (the correct, pre-Communist name of this land - New Russia) meetings were held for reunification with Russia, in which hundreds of thousands of people (more than on the Maidan) participated.
Here are maps that will help you understand the situation.

And please do not think that you know history of Ukraine and the current situation better than I do.

 

[LA se Karachi]

You should understand that the Russian Federation also leave the Soviet Union, as well as the other republics. They had to sign a new Union Treaty - the Union of Independent States. However, thanks to Yeltsin and other traitors was created Commonwealth of Independent States - that is, the peoples of the former USSR have been deceived.

If you held a referendum in each former Soviet country, virtually none would choose to rejoin. That's the point.

To understand the situation with pro-Russian sentiments, it is necessary to look beyond the ethnic card - they are pretty relative, as many Russian in Ukraine write nationality "Ukrainian", as many Ukrainians in Russia write nationality "Russian." Until Communism in 1917, Ukrainians were officially called "Little Russians", just as the Belarusians ("White Russian") are still called.

Belarussians are bit different.

But, Ukranians did exist. They don't necessarily see things the same way you (and other expansionist Russians) do regarding their identity.

Here are maps that will help you understand the situation.

Relatively small polls and surveys (with no links to verify the details)?

Here's what the nationwide Ukrainian census in 2001 showed regarding people's self-identified native language:

In 2014 in all the cities of Eastern Ukraine (the correct, pre-Communist name of this land - New Russia) meetings were held for reunification with Russia, in which hundreds of thousands of people (more than on the Maidan) participated.

And please do not think that you know history of Ukraine and the current situation better than I do.

That doesn't mean a majority support a union with Russia. Hold a UN-administered plebiscite on the issue and prove me wrong. Until then, your words mean little. Again, there's a reason Russia only annexed Crimea.

 

[vostok]

If you held a referendum in each former Soviet country, virtually none would choose to rejoin. That's the point.




Belarussians are bit different.

But, Ukranians did exist. They don't necessarily see things the same way you (and other expansionist Russians) do regarding their identity.

View attachment 358138




Relatively small polls and surveys (with no links to verify the details)?

Here's what the nationwide Ukrainian census in 2001 showed regarding people's self-identified native language:


View attachment 358139






That doesn't mean a majority support a union with Russia. Hold a UN-administered plebiscite on the issue and prove me wrong. Until then, your words mean little. Again, there's a reason Russia only annexed Crimea.

The word "Ukraine" - means "border area", "periphery". So the Poles called the eastern outskirts of their lands when they capured South-Western Russia in 15-17 ct. Local residents called this land first just Rus', and later - Little Rus'.
Little Russia - which means that it is here that Russia has emerged as a state. Kiev in medieval chronicles called - the Mother of Russian Cities.
In official documents until 1917 Russianwere divided into Great Russians, and Little Russians and Belorussians. "Ukrainian" is it just a name on a territorial basis, just as "Siberian" or "Pomeranian".
New Russian province was made on the stepp territories, sized from Ottomans in late 18 ct.

Later Communists gifted this land to Ukrainian Soviet Republic. But local population remais prorussian till today.

Here on this map you can easily understand how Ukraine is divided into pro-Russian and pro-western part.
And another map of native languages for you.

My friend, on your map it is clearly written - "Little Russians" (In orignal Russian text on the left side of map)

 

[LA se Karachi]

The word "Ukraine" - means "border area", "periphery". So the Poles called the eastern outskirts of their lands when they capured South-Western Russia in 15-17 ct. Local residents called this land first just Rus', and later - Little Rus'.
Little Russia - which means that it is here that Russia has emerged as a state. Kiev in medieval chronicles called - the Mother of Russian Cities.
In official documents until 1917 Russianwere divided into Great Russians, and Little Russians and Belorussians. "Ukrainian" is it just a name on a territorial basis, just as "Siberian" or "Pomeranian".
New Russian province was made on the stepp territories, sized from Ottomans in late 18 ct.

I don't want to get sidetracked into a discussion about Ukrainian history. I'm sure it's a very interesting topic and that you know much about it. But, I posted that map to show that, regardless of what they were referred to, there was a distinction made between the people of present-day Ukraine and Russia. If they were exactly the same in every way and they had no unique identity whatsoever, there would have been no distinction made at all. None. That was my only point.

I only take issue with your assertion that "half of Ukraine" wants to join Russia. Some do, yes. But not "half".

But local population remais prorussian till today.

A new election has been held. Please use a current map. The pro-Russian opposition didn't do so well (even if we assume that the separatist controlled areas of Luhansk and Donetsk would have voted for it):

The Presidential election went even worse for the separatists. I find it interesting that so many of them voted for Poroshenko, even in the east:

Even Putin acknowledged both the election and its result:

"Vladimir Putin has given the strongest indication yet that Russia is defusing its policy towards Ukraine, saying that Moscow will "respect the choice of the Ukrainian people" and work with the country's government after a new president is elected on Sunday."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/23/russia-ukraine-vote-vladimir-putin-president


Just as importantly, voting for a pro-Russian party does not mean that those people favor joining Russia. Only that they favor closer ties and cooperation with the country.

Here on this map you can easily understand how Ukraine is divided into pro-Russian and pro-western part.
And another map of native languages for you.

You keep posting surveys and polls (without links). They're no replacement for a proper census. Here's what the census showed in regards to people's primary language:

Unsurprisingly, only in Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk are there a majority of people who identify that way. And as the map in my previous post showed, they make up an outright majority in few individual communities.

And just as importantly, simply speaking Russian does not mean that these people want to join Russia:

"In an audio clip from within Freeland’s essay, she highlights “one of the smartest and most effective things” Putin’s propaganda machine did was to frame the conflict in Ukraine as a civil war “between Russian-speaking Ukrainians and Ukrainian-speaking Ukrainians.” Freeland emphasizes that “that was never true.”

She explains that “while the linguistic factor is real, it is often oversimplified in several respects: Russian-speakers are by no means all pro-Putin or secessionist; Russian- and Ukrainian-speakers are geographically commingled; and virtually everyone in Ukraine has at least a passive understanding of both languages."

http://csweb.brookings.edu/content/research/essays/2015/myukraine.html


In 1991, the people of Ukraine voted for their own country, not Russia:

And until another vote is held, your words don't mean much. It seems that not too much has changed since then:

 

[vostok]

I don't want to get sidetracked into a discussion about Ukrainian history. I'm sure it's a very interesting topic and that you know much about it. But, I posted that map to show that, regardless of what they were referred to, there was a distinction made between the people of present-day Ukraine and Russia. If they were exactly the same in every way and they had no unique identity whatsoever, there would have been no distinction made at all. None. That was my only point.

I only take issue with your assertion that "half of Ukraine" wants to join Russia. Some do, yes. But not "half".




A new election has been held. Please use a current map. The pro-Russian opposition didn't do so well (even if we assume that the separatist controlled areas of Luhansk and Donetsk would have voted for it):

The Presidential election went even worse for the separatists. I find it interesting that so many of them voted for Poroshenko, even in the east:

Even Putin acknowledged both the election and its result:

"Vladimir Putin has given the strongest indication yet that Russia is defusing its policy towards Ukraine, saying that Moscow will "respect the choice of the Ukrainian people" and work with the country's government after a new president is elected on Sunday."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/23/russia-ukraine-vote-vladimir-putin-president


Just as importantly, voting for a pro-Russian party does not mean that those people favor joining Russia. Only that they favor closer ties and cooperation with the country.




You keep posting surveys and polls (without links). They're no replacement for a proper census. Here's what the census showed in regards to people's primary language:

Unsurprisingly, only in Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk are there a majority of people who identify that way. And as the map in my previous post showed, they make up an outright majority in few individual communities.

And just as importantly, simply speaking Russian does not mean that these people want to join Russia:

"In an audio clip from within Freeland’s essay, she highlights “one of the smartest and most effective things” Putin’s propaganda machine did was to frame the conflict in Ukraine as a civil war “between Russian-speaking Ukrainians and Ukrainian-speaking Ukrainians.” Freeland emphasizes that “that was never true.”

She explains that “while the linguistic factor is real, it is often oversimplified in several respects: Russian-speakers are by no means all pro-Putin or secessionist; Russian- and Ukrainian-speakers are geographically commingled; and virtually everyone in Ukraine has at least a passive understanding of both languages."

http://csweb.brookings.edu/content/research/essays/2015/myukraine.html


In 1991, the people of Ukraine voted for their own country, not Russia:

And until another vote is held, your words don't mean much. It seems that not too much has changed since then:

In the Ukraine, voters were also asked "Do you agree that Ukraine should be part of a Union of Soviet sovereign states on the basis on the Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine?"[23] The proposal was approved by 81.7% of voters.
A referendum on the future of the Soviet Union was held on 17 March 1991.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_referendum,_1991#Ukraine
The second referendum was about independence. But not about leaving the Soviet Union!
The independent states should soon sign a new Union Treaty. However, as you know, this has not happened.
For me it is enough if at first, Ukraine became a federal state and each federal entity itself will determine its internal policies its language, and develop its own economic ties. Western part could develop ties with Europe, Eastern part - with Russia. It is fair deal, is not it?
Elections after the coup - this is not an indicator at all, as the main opposition parties were banned - the Communist Party and the Party of Regions.

 

[LA se Karachi]

In the Ukraine, voters were also asked "Do you agree that Ukraine should be part of a Union of Soviet sovereign states on the basis on the Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine?"[23] The proposal was approved by 81.7% of voters.
A referendum on the future of the Soviet Union was held on 17 March 1991.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_referendum,_1991#Ukraine
The second referendum was about independence. But not about leaving the Soviet Union!

The Soviet Union no longer exists!

Ukraine later voted for the Ukrainian independence referendum some months later:

"Voters were asked "Do you support the Act of Declaration of Independence of Ukraine?"[2] The text of the Declaration was included as a preamble to the question. The referendum was called by the Parliament of Ukraine to confirm the Act of Independence, which was adopted by the Parliament on 24 August 1991.[3] Citizens of Ukraine expressed overwhelming support for independence. In the referendum, 31,891,742 registered voters (or 84.18% of the electorate) took part, and among them 28,804,071 (or 92.3%) voted "Yes".[2]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_independence_referendum,_1991


Voters ratified this document:


"Act of Declaration of Independence of Ukraine


In view of the mortal danger surrounding Ukraine in connection with the state coup in the USSR on August 19, 1991,

Continuing the thousand-year tradition of state development in Ukraine,

Proceeding from the right of a nation to self-determination in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations and other international legal documents, and

Implementing the Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine, the Verkhovna Rada of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic solemnly declares the Independence of Ukraine and the creation of an independent Ukrainian state – UKRAINE.

The territory of Ukraine is indivisible and inviolable.

From this day forward, the Constitution and laws of Ukraine only are valid on the territory of Ukraine.

This act comes into force upon its approval."

Elections after the coup - this is not an indicator at all, as the main opposition parties were banned - the Communist Party and the Party of Regions.

Both parties participated in the Presidential election, and Poroshenko won almost every part of the country. Dobkin (the Party of Regions candidate) couldn't even manage a win in the city he previously served as mayor (Kharkov), though he did better in the oblast:

In the parliamentary election, the Party of Regions was not banned, it chose not to participate on its own accord.

However, the pro-Russia Opposition Bloc did participate, with candidates who were mostly members of the Party of Regions. And while they were more successful than the actual Party of Regions in the Presidential election that was held some months before, they still suffered a heavy defeat:

Western part could develop ties with Europe, Eastern part - with Russia. It is fair deal, is not it?

Only if the people support it. However, they don't seem to support a union with Russia (outside of Donetsk city, Luhansk city and some surrounding areas), that's the issue:

 

[vostok]

The Soviet Union no longer exists!

Ukraine later voted for the Ukrainian independence referendum some months later:

"Voters were asked "Do you support the Act of Declaration of Independence of Ukraine?"[2] The text of the Declaration was included as a preamble to the question. The referendum was called by the Parliament of Ukraine to confirm the Act of Independence, which was adopted by the Parliament on 24 August 1991.[3] Citizens of Ukraine expressed overwhelming support for independence. In the referendum, 31,891,742 registered voters (or 84.18% of the electorate) took part, and among them 28,804,071 (or 92.3%) voted "Yes".[2]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_independence_referendum,_1991


Voters ratified this document:


"Act of Declaration of Independence of Ukraine


In view of the mortal danger surrounding Ukraine in connection with the state coup in the USSR on August 19, 1991,

Continuing the thousand-year tradition of state development in Ukraine,

Proceeding from the right of a nation to self-determination in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations and other international legal documents, and

Implementing the Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine, the Verkhovna Rada of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic solemnly declares the Independence of Ukraine and the creation of an independent Ukrainian state – UKRAINE.

The territory of Ukraine is indivisible and inviolable.

From this day forward, the Constitution and laws of Ukraine only are valid on the territory of Ukraine.

This act comes into force upon its approval."




Both parties participated in the Presidential election, and Poroshenko won almost every part of the country. Dobkin (the Party of Regions candidate) couldn't even manage a win in the city he previously served as mayor (Kharkov), though he did better in the oblast:

In the parliamentary election, the Party of Regions was not banned, it chose not to participate on its own accord.

However, the pro-Russia Opposition Bloc did participate, with candidates who were mostly members of the Party of Regions. And while they were more successful than the actual Party of Regions in the Presidential election that was held some months before, they still suffered a heavy defeat:

View attachment 358575




Only if the people support it. However, they don't seem to support a union with Russia (outside of Donetsk city, Luhansk city and some surrounding areas), that's the issue:

View attachment 358571

Carefully read the text again - there is no mention of withdrawal from the USSR. Nowhere does it say that independence = exit from the USSR. The European Union, as you know, is also a union of independent states. And we had to sing the new Union treaty in 1991-1993 but people were decived.
Residents of all republics wanted independence, but none of them wanted to leave the Union (exept Baltica states). This is clearly seen by the results of the referendum March 17, 1991-year.
Results
Votes %

Yes 113,512,812 77.85%

No 32,303,977 22.15%
Valid votes 145,816,789 98.14%
Invalid or blank votes 2,757,817 1.86%
Total votes 148,574,606 100.00%
Registered voters/turnout 185,647,355 80.03%

Ukraine[edit]
Main article: Ukrainian sovereignty referendum, 1991
In the Ukraine, voters were also asked "Do you agree that Ukraine should be part of a Union of Soviet sovereign states on the basis on the Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine?"[23] The proposal was approved by 81.7% of voters.[23]

Choice Votes %
For 25,224,687 81.7
Against 5,655,701 18.3
Invalid/blank votes 584,703 –
Total 31,465,091 100
Registered voters/turnout 37,689,767 83.5
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_referendum,_1991
To understand how strong pro-Russian sentiments in the east of Ukraine, it is necessary to look at the vote in 2010, 2007, 2012 and so on.