V K Saraswat's reply to NAK Browne: Indigenous development takes time

[Screambowl]

The Eurojet 200 already has a 3D TVC version under development, for Rafales M88 TVC seems to be an option for the future too, so that is not a big dealbreaker, but also not the most important feature anyway.

I think as per the shown design, the fuselage resembles a lot to FGFA. So it will be redesigned smaller FGFA fuselage and by the time AMCA is finalized the Eurojet 200 thrust vector control will be a proven technology.

 

[sancho]

I think as per the shown design, the fuselage resembles a lot to FGFA. So it will be redesigned smaller FGFA fuselage and by the time AMCA is finalized the Eurojet 200 thrust vector control will be a proven technology.

Actually they are pretty different designs, FGFA has a lift body design with the engines seperated, more similar to the YF-23, AMCA is by design very different.
Also the EF TVC will only be matured if somebody funds it, which is not the case so far and since they never offered a co-developed engine, unlike the French, I don't expect us to go for that engine either.

AMCA prototypes, possibly GE 414
AMCA final versions Kaveri - foreign partner (most likely Snecma)

 

[longewala]

Of course mistakes were made in some DRDO projects - especially LCA - one must not forget that even projects like rafale or Eurofighter, which were made by countries with decades of experience and with budgets 10 times that of the LCA, took upto 20 years to reach induction. It took a bit longer for LCA - which really started in 1990, so about 25-27 years depending on how long it takes for LCA mk2 IOC.

There were a few genuine reasons for this.
1. Inexperience in project management - ideally, radar and engine development should have been de-coupled from the project. but at the same time, this is understandable as in 1990 India still couldn't trust the West with key components such as these, considering that the US had denied such technology to India in the past.
2. Sanctions after the nuclear test, which delayed the project by years.
3. Revision in the specs, the LCA is no longer just a modest upgrade on the mig-21, it is effectively a 50-year jump over the only other aircraft program india has developed, the Marut.

In any case, it was better to have at least tried. Look at it this way - if we were happy with an all-metal, Mig-21 like airframe, lack of full FBW, an obsolete Russian engine and a Chinese radar, and if we were happy to hastily indcut the plane without even a proper IOC / FOC process (which means years of testing and documentation), then the LCA would have been ready by 2005. Is that really what we should be happy with?

 

[Screambowl]

Actually they are pretty different designs, FGFA has a lift body design with the engines seperated, more similar to the YF-23, AMCA is by design very different.
Also the EF TVC will only be matured if somebody funds it, which is not the case so far and since they never offered a co-developed engine, unlike the French, I don't expect us to go for that engine either.

AMCA prototypes, possibly GE 414
AMCA final versions Kaveri - foreign partner (most likely Snecma)

AMCA is smaller I believe yes difference is there but if you see the edges and the angles and the wing shape, they are quite similar. For example you look at the flap aileron area of FgFa and AMCA, they are quite similar, dimensions could be different, tail and canopy seems to be twin sisters. But that is not yet the final AMCA design.

AMCA

FGFA would be some what like Pak Fa

 

[IND151]

Depends on version of course and I was talking about the latest that is used in MK1.




The Eurojet 200 already has a 3D TVC version under development, for Rafales M88 TVC seems to be an option for the future too, so that is not a big dealbreaker, but also not the most important feature anyway.




Self reliance has nothing to do with developing it alone, but with developing things according to our needs and requirements! Any indigenous project will be developed according to our needs and requirements, no matter how much partners we have during the development stage. Take Dhruv as an example, designed with German help, engine and avionics with French and Israeli help and still the first step for India to be self reliant and so far still the most successful indigenous project.

Do you agree with the other points in my post(in blue)?

 

[sancho]

AMCA is smaller I believe yes difference is there but if you see the edges and the angles and the wing shape, they are quite similar.

Of course the angles are similar, they have to be with any stealth fighter, but that doesn't mean the general design is similar too:

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/822/frontca.jpg

Do you agree with the other points in my post(in blue)?

You can't develop AMCA for less than a 5th generation, because the base will be a stealth design, even if it lacks other 5th gen capabilities, see F35.

 

[IND151]

Of course the angles are similar, they have to be with any stealth fighter, but that doesn't mean the general design is similar too:

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/822/frontca.jpg


You can't develop AMCA for less than a 5th generation, because the base will be a stealth design, even if it lacks other 5th gen capabilities, see F35.

I mean the design can be stealthy but other things like radar and engine will be not like that typical 5th fighters use. First AMCAs can use PESA or MSA radar and 4.5 gen fighter engine like RD-33MK3.

 

[ANPP]

I mean the design can be stealthy but other things like radar and engine will be not like that typical 5th fighters use. First AMCAs can use PESA or MSA radar and 4.5 gen fighter engine like RD-33MK3.

........I dont think that AMCA will ever face condition like that........LCA mk2 will be fitted with AESA radar, so AMCA will also be ( by that time AESA will not remain so much blunder, i guess).

Well on engine phase...............well it may be with TV or without TV but much more important thing for me is that it should have lower/least IR signature & that will grantee for 5 gen engine.......while most probably Kaveri will integrate in AMCA ( if it will develop by time) & it is using core of M88 ( it have least IR signature among all 4++ gen fighter) so it will be much easier to reduce IR........hope DRDO will alsso able to reduce radar sign of engine, rather than concerning on thrust vector....

 

[Screambowl]

Of course the angles are similar, they have to be with any stealth fighter, but that doesn't mean the general design is similar too:

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/822/frontca.jpg

yes because that is the typical F-22 design and the proven one to reduce RCS, but the materials and RAM coating will be learnt from FGFA because EU is still working on this technology. So the fuselage technology will come from Russia.

 

[Screambowl]

Of course the angles are similar, they have to be with any stealth fighter, but that doesn't mean the general design is similar too:

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/822/frontca.jpg

yes because that is the typical F-22 design and the proven one to reduce RCS, but the materials and RAM coating will be learnt from FGFA because EU is still working on this technology. So the fuselage technology will come from Russia.

 

[sancho]

I mean the design can be stealthy but other things like radar and engine will be not like that typical 5th fighters use. First AMCAs can use PESA or MSA radar and 4.5 gen fighter engine like RD-33MK3.

Why should we develop a PESA radar for AMCA, when we already develop an AESA for LCA? Not going to happen.

yes because that is the typical F-22 design and the proven one to reduce RCS, but the materials and RAM coating will be learnt from FGFA because EU is still working on this technology. So the fuselage technology will come from Russia.

No, that's common stealth design as angled shapings are the core of any stealth design, be it F22, J20 or Pak Fa, while it is obvious that all 3 fighters have a different design as a whole.

 

[S-DUCT]

@sancho
Sir,any comment on these statements from signature expert from ADE Sc 'D'
"My first question was the target RCS for which he said "no numbers". I then asked him if he could tell me the umber of zeros before the decimal for which said "There are a few zeros and that's all i can say right now"

"Then the most significant revelation in my opinion came when i asked him about the RAM. He said they have already got a few kinds of paints and have demonstrated it to the users on service aircrafts and he said the reduction was of the order of 15dB"

 

[Manas]

Here we have thankless forces stuffed with imported maal hardly cares indigenous development and govt run defense R&D which as efficient /inefficient as any other govt department . I wont venture into corruption in procurement and other ancillary issues.

 

[sancho]

@sancho
Sir,any comment on these statements from signature expert from ADE Sc 'D'
"My first question was the target RCS for which he said "no numbers". I then asked him if he could tell me the umber of zeros before the decimal for which said "There are a few zeros and that's all i can say right now"

"Then the most significant revelation in my opinion came when i asked him about the RAM. He said they have already got a few kinds of paints and have demonstrated it to the users on service aircrafts and he said the reduction was of the order of 15dB"

Just Sancho is enough, donno where this sir comes from all the sudden in the last few days.

If I'm not wrong that were a discussion of a member of BR about, but forgot about which fighter. The comments are not surprising, we know that we already have some know how in coatings and combined with the composites and small size of LCA for example, we should be pretty competetive in this field with modern fighters, but I wouldn't take any comment on a forum as the reality.

 

[S-DUCT]

Just Sancho is enough, donno where this sir comes from all the sudden in the last few days.

If I'm not wrong that were a discussion of a member of BR about, but forgot about which fighter. The comments are not surprising, we know that we already have some know how in coatings and combined with the composites and small size of LCA for example, we should be pretty competetive in this field with modern fighters, but I wouldn't take any comment on a forum as the reality.

1)Why RAM coatings in both f-35 and mig-29k looks drastically different,f-35 coating looks very advanced.
2)Can we expect RAM coatings on FGFA,AMCA to that like of F-22/35?