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***** USA This is the Wrong Time to Physically Confront China Now *****

Willing to escalate to a new military conflict/war with China now?

  • Yes, it is worth the risk now

    Votes: 20 32.3%
  • No, but in the near future, yes

    Votes: 9 14.5%
  • No, we should resolve this peacefully and diplomatically instead and work together on global issues

    Votes: 19 30.6%
  • No, we should concede to China's sovereignty and work together on global issues

    Votes: 14 22.6%

  • Total voters
    62
China tried that in 79. Didn't end up well for China. So I don't think a smart China would confront Vietnam on land. The sea is a totally different story.

In fact, Vietnam did suffer more casualty than China back in 1979.

And PLA had managed to decimate over 100000 Vietcong militia who disguised as the civilians.

Talking about the 1979 war, most Viet members would go apesh1t crazy when people mentioning about it, so they are obviously more butthurt than the Chinese members.
 
Let us not underestimate the Taiwanese anti air and anti ship capabilities. They have a vast number of Sky Sword units enough to impose air denial on the PLAAF. They also have a vast number of Hsiung Feng IIs....enough to keep the PLAN East Sea Fleet away and not dare come within 100 miles of Taiwanese maritime zone.

Taiwan is no joke on her own right. Forcefully seizing this island would result in strategic failure for any would be aggressor , or impose a bloody pyrrhic victory (if that's even possible).
Mister, Taiwanese has been upvaluated by you, Taiwanese may claps gaily but, what you mentioned above, Hsiong Feng 2i is an symlified harpoon but doubtless it is an inferior subsonic Anti-ship missile. Besides its warhead is fractionally exceeded YJ-83( gradually out of date), it has NOTHING could be praised. More importantly they have no ample launch units to conduct an saturated offense, let alone at war, connection jammared, radar destroyed previously,no order, they are a cluster of pussy. Now we have DDG 052D, our fleets are protected by s-400 s-300 Hq-9 , all their flying units would be shot down immediately.
Their Sam units are a huge joke, their one missile is even more expensive them what they will intercept, Those BM, will render those radar sites and airport silos into useless, Taiwanese , just shoot your PAC-3 happily.
We don't want to invade one of our special administration districts, but I abhor Taiwan is under charge of any traitor, NO MERCY to them, no mercy.
 
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When a guy like you say "my USA" will make a lot of real USA people feel ashamed and make foreigners feel ridiculous. You are just a person that holds a USA passport but not a real USA citizens. That's why you will not consider USA's benefits as what you have the oblige to defend. Luckily at least KAL-EN is a true American.
Yes, I am a natural citizen here in the US. But I am not a freaken anti-China warhawk like you in order to prove your patriotism. Your definition of a true American is so twisted and perverse for perpetuating warfare all the way to the other side of the world to this day. Unbelievable...
 
No I am a pure Vietnamese. I read many of your posts. You always support China but your flags are USA. You are definitely a real Chinese.
no people is fool enough to believe that USA want to make a war with China right now. They are just protecting USA's benefits. You are a Chinese so you will never understand what John Kerry has said.
Anyway, as I know Chinese live around the world for hundred years but most of them only consider themselves as Chinese. That's why I think most of Americans also don't consider you as American.
Yes, I am a natural citizen here in the US. But I am not a freaken anti-China warhawk like you in order to prove your patriotism. Your definition of a true American is so twisted and perverse for perpetuating warfare all the way to the other side of the world to this day. Unbelievable...
 
No I am a pure Vietnamese. I read many of your posts. You always support China but your flags are USA. You are definitely a real Chinese.
no people is fool enough to believe that USA want to make a war with China right now. They are just protecting USA's benefits. You are a Chinese so you will never understand what John Kerry has said.
Anyway, as I know Chinese live around the world for hundred years but most of them only consider themselves as Chinese. That's why I think most of Americans also don't consider you as American.
Show your flags in the profile please. I don't know why you kept your flags and your avatar blank...
 
Show your flags in the profile please. I don't know why you kept your flags and your avatar blank...
When I joined this forum years ago, I already chose two of my flags as VN. The forum updated and made my flags disappear.
 
When I joined this forum years ago, I already chose two of my flags as VN. The forum updated and made my flags disappear.
You will have to recreate your profile then. Good luck!
 
It is always nice to cook up scenarios where other people die in massive numbers, unless most of you armchair warriors or self appointed strategists are promised a place in a nuclear bunker, you will be wiped off the face of this planet along with billions.
US wont confront China directly, but in directly sure using countries around China. Americans are fully aware of regional rivalries and is gearing to exploit them as to the max, but direct confrontation highly unlikely.
After all the who-ha against Russia in Ukraine, what have US done so far other than sanctions, and it seems its NATO partners are still interested in doing business with Russia. A far immediate concern is middle east which is a ticking supernova, if this one goes everyone and everything goes.


US is not confronting China,China is confronting the US and many of its neighbours.The US and its allies are simply defending themselves against agression.
Yes please enlighten me which are those neighbours you talk of that china is messing with. Last time I checked world map US of A was located in North American continent, yet have bases on every continent and messing in affairs of every country on the planet.
 
Mister, Taiwanese has been upvaluated by you, Taiwanese may claps gaily but, what you mentioned above, Hsiong Feng 2i is an symlified harpoon but doubtless it is an inferior subsonic Anti-ship missile. Besides its warhead is fractionally exceeded YJ-83( gradually out of date), it has NOTHING could be praised. More importantly they have no ample launch units to conduct an saturated offense, let alone at war, connection jammared, radar destroyed previously,no order, they are a cluster of pussy. Now we have DDG 052D, our fleets are protected by s-400 s-300 Hq-9 , all their flying units would be shot down immediately.
Their Sam units are a huge joke, their one missile is even more expensive them what they will intercept, Those BM, will render those radar sites and airport silos into useless, Taiwanese , just shoot your PAC-3 happily.
We don't want to invade one of our special administration districts, but I abhor Taiwan is under charge of any traitor, NO MERCY to them, no mercy.


Ni Hao Ma @HRM YANG ,

Thanks for your analysis. Let me give an objective evaluation of the ROC military capability so we can best analyze the situation on ground.

The Republic of China’s armed forces number approximately 290,000, with 130,000 in the army, 45,000 in the navy and marine corps, and approximately 80,000 in the air force. Traditionally the army has been the dominant service, but that has shifted over the years. Taiwan’s military doctrine states that as much of any fighting that occurs should take place as far from population centers as possible. The army is only relevant once the enemy lands on the island, while the navy and air force can range over the strait.

The Republic of China Navy (RoCN) has transitioned from the most neglected arm of the Taiwanese military to the most important. The RoCN alone can defeat an invasion fleet at sea. Sinking amphibious transports not only takes a large ground force out of action, but also permanently degrades the enemy’s amphibious capability.

The RoCN has 26 large surface combatants, all of which have a potent anti-ship capability. The largest ships in the fleet are the four Kee Lung-class guided-missile destroyers, formerly the U.S. Kidd class destoyers.

At about10,000 tons, each destroyersports two Mk.26 twin surface to air missile (SAM) launch systems armed with Standard SM-2 Block IIIA surface-to-air missiles, two Mk. 45 127mm guns, four Harpoon Block II anti-ship missiles and has a helicopter flight deck and hangar.

The remaining large surface vessels are a mixture of American and French designs.

The eight Cheung Kung class of guided missile frigates are a modified version of the long-hull Oliver Hazard Perry class. The class is armed with a Mk.13 missile launcher forward, capable of firing SM-1MR surface-to-air and Harpoon anti-ship missiles, and a 76mm Oto Melara gun amidships.

The frigates also carry 8 Hsiung Feng II anti-ship missiles, giving the small ships a powerful anti-ship capability. Each carries an S-70 Thunderhawk helicopter, an export variant of the SH-60B Seahawk.

Taiwan has eight frigates of the former U.S. Knox class destroyers, now the Chi Yang class. The ships mount the original armament of one Mk. 45 127mm gun and one ASROC launcher. The Chi Yang class has also been retrofitted with ten SM-1MR surface-to-air missiles in external canister launchers. The ships each carry one MD-500 ASW helicopter.

Rounding out large surface combatants are the Kang Ting-class frigates. A modification of the La Fayette design, the Kang Ting frigates mount one 76mm gun and a navalized Chaparral missile launcher for air defense. 8 Hsiung Feng anti-ship missiles are carried, and typically one S-70 Thunderhawk helicopter.
Taiwan has made a significant investment in small, fast missile patrol craft designed to take on much larger Chinese surface and amphibious ships. Twelve missile patrol combatants of the Jing Chiang class were built — each 680 tons fully loaded — with a 76mm gun and mine-laying racks.

There are also 34 smaller ships of the 150 ton Kung Hua VI project. Ships of both classes are each equipped with 4 Hsiung Feng anti-ship missiles. This diminutive fleet collectively weighs just over 13,000 tons but altogether packs a total of 184 anti-ship missiles.

Now what about ROC's Air Denial Capability? Oh its impressive !


The Republic of China Air Force (RoCAF) is optimized for air superiority. China could not successfully invade without seizing air superiority, and as a result Taiwan’s air force is seen as one of the primary deterrents to Chinese military action. Taiwan’s fighters were state of the art in the 1990s, when most of the aircraft were purchased. Time and China’s air power buildup have eroded their technological edge — opening up the possibility that China could successfully contest air superiority over the island.

The RoCAF currently has 146 F-16 A/B Block 20 multirole fighters, armed with AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles. It also operates 55 Mirage 2000 multirole fighters, armed with Magic air-to-air missiles. Rounding out Taiwan’s main fighter inventory are 126 Ching-kuo Indigenous Fighters, armed with locally developed Sky Sword II air-to-air missiles.

The air force also operates the nationwide air defense network, with 11 early warning sites overall. Main air defense is provided by Taiwan’s indigenously produced TIEN KUNG II surface-to-air missiles. Radar guided, Tien Kung II has a range of 125 miles and is deployed at six bases, four on Taiwan and two on nearby island groups.

Each base includes 80 missiles in underground silos and two target illumination radars. A range of 125 miles means Tien Kung missiles could theoretically engage targets over the mainland.

It is always nice to cook up scenarios where other people die in massive numbers, unless most of you armchair warriors or self appointed strategists are promised a place in a nuclear bunker, you will be wiped of the face of this planet along with billions.
US wont confront China directly, but in directly sure using countries around China. Americans are fully aware of regional rivalries and is gearing to exploit them as to the max, but direct confrontation highly unlikely.
After all the who-ha against Russia in Ukraine, what have US done so far other than sanctions, and it seems its NATO partners are still interested in doing business with Russia. A far immediate concern is middle east which is a ticking supernova, if this one goes everyone and everything goes.


I think it is important for all relevant members here, my friend, to evade in generalizing what they think the United States may or may not do. It was the height of arrogance that the Imperial Military Command of the Japanese Empire thought that the United States would be unable to penetrate the Japanese Empire's Vast Territorial Defense , specifically its island defense strategy in the Pacific. Japanese commanders, then of course, believed that the United States would sue for peace after being forced to take Japanese-held islands in the Pacific. Lo and behold the Imperial Military Command did not believe or comprehend that the United States would utilize an assymetric warfare doctrine known as 'Island Hopping', specifically bypassing largely well defended and well fortified island fortifications such as Rabaul, Taiwan etc. The United States were also capable of launching the largest naval invasion to retake territory (The Philippines) from the 14th Area Imperial Japanese Army Command.

At the time, the Philippines was occupied by the 14th Area Imperial Japanese Army , with a force of over 450,000 battle hardened soldiers, a division of Imperial Guards, several divisions of Rikusentai (Imperial Naval Marines). The United States had mobilized the 8th and 6th United States Armies to retake the Philippines, supported by the several Divisions of United States Marine Corp --- totalling an invasion force of over 1,200,000. Their Pacific Fleet had engaged the Combined Imperial Fleet and fought with us in the largest naval battle known in the history of man. In the Battle of Leyte Gulf, Battle of Lingayen Gulf, Battle of Surigao Straits.

It is foolish, my friend, in trying to predict what the United States is willing to do when push comes to shove. A mistake that had been a costly one for the Japanese Empire, The German Third Reich, and the Fascist Italy.

Never , Ever, Ever, underestimate the American Resolve. And I say this out of sincere respect.

@SvenSvensonov @Transhumanist ---- your input? Thoughts ?
 
It's not 1940 anymore, @Nihonjin1051

Please stop glorifying America, it's nauseating. Thousands of years of history show the Chinese have more resolve than anyone else, or else we'd have vanished like Rome did.


The United States can be said as the re-manifastation of Rome. By all measures, she is a Republic like Rome, she is Multicultural like Rome, she is a Hegemon like Rome, a democracy like Rome. No power on earth , bar none, has this much global clout as the United States.

The United States is not something that should be ignored, my Taiwanese friend. By ignoring and pretending that the United States does not exist will not remove her existence. Remember the mistake of the Ming Dynasty (and to an extent the Tokugawa Bakufu) in closing the doors to the west, pretending that the foreign powers were ignorable , abominable inferior peoples and worthy of ignoring. Lo and behold in the 200 years of such closed door policy, the West conquered the world , Asia-specifically.

The Americans have a ravenous military culture, and a military command that can wreck havoc if ever unleashed. Shakespeare said it best, 'Let loose the dogs of war'. Well that's what will happen in a war with the United States.
 
The US called China's reclamations on its many islands in the South China Sea " Great Wall of Sands" "illegal" as it does not conform to the International Law of the Sea.

It further alleged that China's action is tantamount to potentially obstruction of “freedom of navigation in an area that is critical to world trade”.
...
Here, in this article (link is below), "Beijing’s South China Sea expansion: The salami slices back!", on Asia Times Online, Peter Lee correctly throws his tantum at the US by calling the US argument "the U.S. is trying to build a” Great Wall of Bullsh*t” in the South China Sea, by invoking “freedom of navigation in an area that is critical to world trade” as a pretext for U.S. intervention". Besides, the US acts so hypocritically by quoting ILOS ever so often from a position where it is not even a signatory to such clause in the UN.

In another article on The Great Debate, Reuter News US Edition "Why a forceful U.S. response to China’s artificial island-building won’t float" by William Johnson, a retired U.S. Air Force Officer and a retired Foreign Service Officer, he again called the US actions "misguided", "flawed justification" and "hollow".

This was the real reason for US to so wantonly trying to hoodwink the world over:

" American military planners’ real concern is that the Chinese will use the newly constructed islands — which certainly include a runway large enough to handle military aircraft, and may include facilities to dock military vessels — to extend the scope of their Anti-Access Area Denial (A2AD) strategy. Military installations in the South China Sea would provide platforms for land, air and sea-launched weapon systems sufficient to raise the cost of U.S. military actions in the region to prohibitive levels".

Now, the world awaits China to lay bare such obnoxious US hubris by calling it bluff. China should continue with what is deemed in its best national interest regardless and when push comes to shove, just deal a humiliating blow to the US.
China should roar back: I am ready, how about you, Uncle Sam?

***

Beijing’s South China Sea expansion: The salami slices back!
 
Ni Hao Ma @HRM YANG ,

Thanks for your analysis. Let me give an objective evaluation of the ROC military capability so we can best analyze the situation on ground.

The Republic of China’s armed forces number approximately 290,000, with 130,000 in the army, 45,000 in the navy and marine corps, and approximately 80,000 in the air force. Traditionally the army has been the dominant service, but that has shifted over the years. Taiwan’s military doctrine states that as much of any fighting that occurs should take place as far from population centers as possible. The army is only relevant once the enemy lands on the island, while the navy and air force can range over the strait.

The Republic of China Navy (RoCN) has transitioned from the most neglected arm of the Taiwanese military to the most important. The RoCN alone can defeat an invasion fleet at sea. Sinking amphibious transports not only takes a large ground force out of action, but also permanently degrades the enemy’s amphibious capability.

The RoCN has 26 large surface combatants, all of which have a potent anti-ship capability. The largest ships in the fleet are the four Kee Lung-class guided-missile destroyers, formerly the U.S. Kidd class destoyers.

At about10,000 tons, each destroyersports two Mk.26 twin surface to air missile (SAM) launch systems armed with Standard SM-2 Block IIIA surface-to-air missiles, two Mk. 45 127mm guns, four Harpoon Block II anti-ship missiles and has a helicopter flight deck and hangar.

The remaining large surface vessels are a mixture of American and French designs.

The eight Cheung Kung class of guided missile frigates are a modified version of the long-hull Oliver Hazard Perry class. The class is armed with a Mk.13 missile launcher forward, capable of firing SM-1MR surface-to-air and Harpoon anti-ship missiles, and a 76mm Oto Melara gun amidships.

The frigates also carry 8 Hsiung Feng II anti-ship missiles, giving the small ships a powerful anti-ship capability. Each carries an S-70 Thunderhawk helicopter, an export variant of the SH-60B Seahawk.

Taiwan has eight frigates of the former U.S. Knox class destroyers, now the Chi Yang class. The ships mount the original armament of one Mk. 45 127mm gun and one ASROC launcher. The Chi Yang class has also been retrofitted with ten SM-1MR surface-to-air missiles in external canister launchers. The ships each carry one MD-500 ASW helicopter.

Rounding out large surface combatants are the Kang Ting-class frigates. A modification of the La Fayette design, the Kang Ting frigates mount one 76mm gun and a navalized Chaparral missile launcher for air defense. 8 Hsiung Feng anti-ship missiles are carried, and typically one S-70 Thunderhawk helicopter.
Taiwan has made a significant investment in small, fast missile patrol craft designed to take on much larger Chinese surface and amphibious ships. Twelve missile patrol combatants of the Jing Chiang class were built — each 680 tons fully loaded — with a 76mm gun and mine-laying racks.

There are also 34 smaller ships of the 150 ton Kung Hua VI project. Ships of both classes are each equipped with 4 Hsiung Feng anti-ship missiles. This diminutive fleet collectively weighs just over 13,000 tons but altogether packs a total of 184 anti-ship missiles.

Now what about ROC's Air Denial Capability? Oh its impressive !


The Republic of China Air Force (RoCAF) is optimized for air superiority. China could not successfully invade without seizing air superiority, and as a result Taiwan’s air force is seen as one of the primary deterrents to Chinese military action. Taiwan’s fighters were state of the art in the 1990s, when most of the aircraft were purchased. Time and China’s air power buildup have eroded their technological edge — opening up the possibility that China could successfully contest air superiority over the island.

The RoCAF currently has 146 F-16 A/B Block 20 multirole fighters, armed with AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles. It also operates 55 Mirage 2000 multirole fighters, armed with Magic air-to-air missiles. Rounding out Taiwan’s main fighter inventory are 126 Ching-kuo Indigenous Fighters, armed with locally developed Sky Sword II air-to-air missiles.

The air force also operates the nationwide air defense network, with 11 early warning sites overall. Main air defense is provided by Taiwan’s indigenously produced TIEN KUNG II surface-to-air missiles. Radar guided, Tien Kung II has a range of 125 miles and is deployed at six bases, four on Taiwan and two on nearby island groups.

Each base includes 80 missiles in underground silos and two target illumination radars. A range of 125 miles means Tien Kung missiles could theoretically engage targets over the mainland.




I think it is important for all relevant members here, my friend, to evade in generalizing what they think the United States may or may not do. It was the height of arrogance that the Imperial Military Command of the Japanese Empire thought that the United States would be unable to penetrate the Japanese Empire's Vast Territorial Defense , specifically its island defense strategy in the Pacific. Japanese commanders, then of course, believed that the United States would sue for peace after being forced to take Japanese-held islands in the Pacific. Lo and behold the Imperial Military Command did not believe or comprehend that the United States would utilize an assymetric warfare doctrine known as 'Island Hopping', specifically bypassing largely well defended and well fortified island fortifications such as Rabaul, Taiwan etc. The United States were also capable of launching the largest naval invasion to retake territory (The Philippines) from the 14th Area Imperial Japanese Army Command.

At the time, the Philippines was occupied by the 14th Area Imperial Japanese Army , with a force of over 450,000 battle hardened soldiers, a division of Imperial Guards, several divisions of Rikusentai (Imperial Naval Marines). The United States had mobilized the 8th and 6th United States Armies to retake the Philippines, supported by the several Divisions of United States Marine Corp --- totalling an invasion force of over 1,200,000. Their Pacific Fleet had engaged the Combined Imperial Fleet and fought with us in the largest naval battle known in the history of man. In the Battle of Leyte Gulf, Battle of Lingayen Gulf, Battle of Surigao Straits.

It is foolish, my friend, in trying to predict what the United States is willing to do when push comes to shove. A mistake that had been a costly one for the Japanese Empire, The German Third Reich, and the Fascist Italy.

Never , Ever, Ever, underestimate the American Resolve. And I say this out of sincere respect.

@SvenSvensonov @Transhumanist ---- your input? Thoughts ?

Lets look at it.
Your argument on state of Taiwan is pretty spot on, but whats surprising is to me is that for a island not to have an effective Navy, when it can be effectively surrounded from all sides. Imagine if England or Japan also had weak navies where would they end up. PRC considers Taiwan a huge vulnerability which lies in the underbelly of China and it must be giving Chinese strategists and Generals nightmares for decades now. Chinese will be ready for a war that might cause casualties to achieve their objectives, but is Taiwan ready or to put it more appropriately capable of taking such massive hits.

On the part of underestimating US war machine, I never said that. It would be foolish to think that US is too weak a war, American military is really good at kicking *** and they have proved this time and time again but they are really shitty at handling the post war mess. The fact that US economy thrives on war and its massive ability to support its military in case of a war is not lost on me. But I would also point it in WWII, US mainland saw now direct impacts of war on mainland, as Europe, Asia and some parts of Africa witnessed. But in todays world no country in the world would be spared and any conflict would be truly global.
Americans are no fools, they are not all cowboys as many like to believe, Obamas pessimistic approach to Irans nuclear crisis even in face of strong Israel and its lobby in US is clear evidence of that. Some in US might like to confront China directly as soon as possible, but the current global situation and also that of US might now allow for any such adventurism.

The United States can be said as the re-manifastation of Rome. By all measures, she is a Republic like Rome, she is Multicultural like Rome, she is a Hegemon like Rome, a democracy like Rome. No power on earth , bar none, has this much global clout as the United States.

The United States is not something that should be ignored, my Taiwanese friend. By ignoring and pretending that the United States does not exist will not remove her existence. Remember the mistake of the Ming Dynasty (and to an extent the Tokugawa Bakufu) in closing the doors to the west, pretending that the foreign powers were ignorable , abominable inferior peoples and worthy of ignoring. Lo and behold in the 200 years of such closed door policy, the West conquered the world , Asia-specifically.

The Americans have a ravenous military culture, and a military command that can wreck havoc if ever unleashed. Shakespeare said it best, 'Let loose the dogs of war'. Well that's what will happen in a war with the United States.

Than let us not forget today Rome is nothing but reduced to few old buildings and an extinct language spoken by few people for academic purpose only. Every empire sooner or later will come down, its only a matter of time. Its highly unlikely that American Empire will exist even 1/10th of time as Roman Empire did. The history repeats itself, every empire thinks its different from the one before but its not. All shall meet the same fate.
 

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