US sold old F-16’s at higher rates, says Mukhtar

[Irfan Baloch]

How is that possible?

they dont have the VISA maybe

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I would never make a statement like that if I knew how to fly.

I too, would never make a statement like that altough I dont know how to fly

To notorious re PAFS upgrade of F16s

Your comment re APG68 radar says it all. An old mechancial scanning radar cannot be compared to a modern Aesa like APG79/80 or even a Bars Pesa Radar on the Su30mki.

As for The Typhoons & Rafael they come with brand new radars and jammers worth $millons each..

The 18 x F16/52 are good planes that PAF will have. But nothing that will worry pilots in a Typhoon Rafael or su30 mki/su35.

you missed out LCA

 

[Rank]

@ indans

dont post your funn jokes on everythread... get a side... go and post funny jokes in funny section (Indian Military) atleast read topic name properly

"US sold old F-16’s at higher rates"

Nothing like/compare to PAKFA/Su30Mki/LCA and yaa forget to mention super duper F18 from last 2 years...

 

[BATMAN]

I'm not sure you understand how IFF equipment works. BOTH aircraft require an encrypted "Code of the day" for the IFF interrogation to return "friendly." For your scenario to play out, we'd have to know the IFF code (changeable via software by ground personnel) of the Pakistani system, AND give it to the enemy. All you need to do is keep the code a secret. PAF aircraft return friendly, others don't.

Again, it doesn't work that way. IFF is a digital burst that has nothing to do with a typical X-band signal. IFF (excepting NCTR) is separate from raw radar returns.

ANY signal emitted by any system is liable to be detected, triangulated upon, or attacked via HARM or similar weapons. Don't transmit anything. It's called EMCON. As for a movie... it's a movie. Star Wars was a movie too.

If we sold secrets to India (the obvious "enemy" in this scenario) on some mythical secret to defeat an AIM120, then there goes our entire fleet of fighters. There is no secret digital signal, no turn off switch, no software "backdoor" to U.S. weapons. If there was, it would only be a matter of time before some country discovered it, and there goes the entire worldwide market for U.S. arms.

Companies like Lockheed, Raytheon, Boeing, want their products to be world class. That is how more are sold.

@StormForce: That "old" mechanical radar on the F-15 has a 100:0 kill ratio. There's nothing wrong with mechanically-scanned radars. They will be effective for decades.

Hi, I didn't knew about the daily code system of IFF. Thanks for the info. i hope it is compatible with non western a/c and ground based mobile radars.
Malaysia has faced same issue with it's f-18 which can only fire missiles when US permits!
In past Pakistan had faced IFF problems with F-16 but in opposite way i.e. F-16 failed to identify a friendly a/c.

I know, technology today is only limited to one's imagination.
So is the innovation in signal transmission, format and encryption.
For example.... normal frequency from radar may have been carrying encrypted digital data signal, detectable by satellites above! PAF will never notice they are being spied.

Now again... let's talk about decoy counter measure and forget ECM; due to in-built characteristics some design of chaffs will be more effective against AIM120 than others and i expect US to know it more because they built the radar of AIM.
If our enemies manage to get this info out of LHM or directly from US govt. than it leaves us at disadvantage.

 

[Chogy]

Think of IFF as a military-grade, encrypted transponder system, of the same sort as flown on Boeings and Airbus transports for civilians.

A simplification... On the ground, the PAF commander decides "The code today will be jd68nh57543jh874" The secret message goes out. This code is loaded into a software box that transfers the code to all PAF systems that use IFF. Another guy has a box the size of a bread toaster that tests the system using actual IFF methods. He interrogates the airframe, and checks to make sure the code is installed properly.

Now, all aircraft with "jd68nh57543jh874" will return friendly. The problem with fratricide will never go away, however, even with IFF, as there are many things that can go wrong. It usually works, but sometimes it doesn't. Then, the pilot must rely on other means to ID his target.

Chaff is very old technology. It is like one of those silver mylar balloons, cut into tiny strips anywhere from 1cm to 10 cm long. Each length creates a miniature dipole antenna for a particular frequency. The thing about chaff... it is old technology. Radars today use doppler (velocity) return as a major part of their logic. When chaff is deployed, it slows instantly to zero knots, and is immediately rejected as ground clutter. It is a very weak countermeasure for aircraft (better for ships), IMO, and it is easier to design chaff-rejection logic for an AIM-120 than flare rejection logic for an IR missile.

Again, Hughes/Raytheon wants their missile to perform. It is in their interest to do so. Everyone will then want it. If their engineers knew of some way it could be deceived, then they would add logic to patch that method. That doesn't mean it is 100% guaranteed; nothing is. But known or imagined methods to spoof it were considered and worked on for years, and it sees continued upgrades.

 

[VCheng]

IFF is only one aspect.

Any aircraft that relies on the accuracy of GPS signals is potentially subject to a whole set of different possible manipulations, especially during a combat scenario.

 

[Tshering22]

i think we should cancel the further f-16 deal and buy the current j-10A about 30 and wait for the j-10B..and then after 2015 we upgrade the old j-10A to j-10B standard..

---------- Post added at 01:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:13 AM ----------

J-10 and f-16 are almost the same..

and i think j-10 is more advance then f-16

Then at this rate, you're making the same mistake of putting all eggs in one basket. I am not saying that Chinese are unreliable or anything. But till the time you get the fleet of your own jets ready, it is best that you keep your inventory diverse. And since your doctrine is about single engines, you could consider the new Gripens.

Gripens may have some American stuff but the other European alternatives don't suit you. It is a very versatile fighter and still will make you largely independent. So till you get this J-10B version ready for PAF in 2015, getting Gripen over additional F-16s will be a better choice. Gripen is 1/3rd US-made but at least remaining 2/3rd is not.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Chaff is very old technology. It is like one of those silver mylar balloons, cut into tiny strips anywhere from 1cm to 10 cm long. Each length creates a miniature dipole antenna for a particular frequency. The thing about chaff... it is old technology. Radars today use doppler (velocity) return as a major part of their logic. When chaff is deployed, it slows instantly to zero knots, and is immediately rejected as ground clutter. It is a very weak countermeasure for aircraft (better for ships), IMO, and it is easier to design chaff-rejection logic for an AIM-120 than flare rejection logic for an IR missile.

Again, Hughes/Raytheon wants their missile to perform. It is in their interest to do so. Everyone will then want it. If their engineers knew of some way it could be deceived, then they would add logic to patch that method. That doesn't mean it is 100% guaranteed; nothing is. But known or imagined methods to spoof it were considered and worked on for years, and it sees continued upgrades.

Industrial and military espionage springs to mind. All the possible sources and resources must be applied by adversaries to sniff from professionals, workers, web, loose talk etc to an idea or hint and better one’s side

 

[HAIDER]

If you guys remember few years back PAF refused to take the delivery of F16, it was the code issue. Special code to disengaged the system if NATO plane comes in range. Later issue was resolve, When PAF Chief of that time left without taking new batch of F16 delivery.

 

[Chogy]

Special code to disengaged the system if NATO plane comes in range.

Oh for **** sake... there is no magic code. Do you think NATO airplanes have a box that transmits continuously? Nice way to get shot by a Russian anti-radiation missile.

 

[Vassnti]

I don't know much about Mukhtar but this is the article


Federal Minister for Defence Chaudhry Ahmed Mukhtar has said that the United States sold old F-16’s to Pakistan at higher rates.
.

No one seems to have questiotned the motive for the statement. Yes it could just be the ritual piss in the Americans faces that seems to be performed daily for local consumption.

When a politician ( on the buyingside ) starts talking up the price of a major arms deal i wonder if he is just making room in the price paid for a nice slice of the top for him self?

 

[HAIDER]

Oh for **** sake... there is no magic code. Do you think NATO airplanes have a box that transmits continuously? Nice way to get shot by a Russian anti-radiation missile.

Code of radar jam, just in case of any NATO F16 confrontation.....why Chief wants to abolish the code......that's question ..

 

[Super Falcon]

we should stop buying F 16s and go for J 10 all out for future but sir our armed forces and pilititions are nuts they are thinking for last 5 years on J 10 yet nothing happened on that too

 

[Last Hope]

Look at the positive side, US sold Pakistan F16s, a truely legendary Jet.

We have developed our AirForce.

We do have the jet that many countries dont!

 

[Last Hope]

we should stop buying F 16s and go for J 10 all out for future but sir our armed forces and pilititions are nuts they are thinking for last 5 years on J 10 yet nothing happened on that too

TAKEN FROM WIKIPEDIA

Initial 36 FC-20 ordered, to be delivered by 2015 [7][8][9][10] after improvements are made to meet PAF requirements.[11][12] Upgrades to radar and avionics reported to be required by PAF in 2007.[13] FC-20 believed to be a version of the upgraded J-10B, incorporating an IRST, diverterless supersonic intake, new radar and modified vertical stabiliser fin.[14] Contract believed to have been signed in November 2009, delivery of dozens more aircraft likely, possibly up to a total of 150 FC-20.[15]

List of aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia