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US ship involved in accident.

We should not be surprised -- on this forum -- that people who have never served in the military is making definitive pronouncements, based upon personal ignorance, on what happened in their childish zeal to place fault on the US before the conclusion of any investigation.

We got people whose closest experience to anything 'nautical' is when they were babes playing with toy ships and rubber duckies in the bath tubs, but here they are, telling everybody they know what crews does in which vessel.
 
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The US Frit was partly to blame and is at fault, no doubt. A few facts need to be mentioned.

-ACX was on autopilot and had their AIS turned on but the crew was said to be asleep.
-the US Frit had their AIS turned off in busy water traffic. This is not a normal thing to do.

Given this fact, there is no way the ACX's AIS system can detect and alarm the crew of impending collision. Don't expect the US to accept their fault. It's an embarrassment that a high-tech ship with much more maneuverability than a moving ACX cannot avoid this collision. I see a case of negligent on the US Fritz in miscalculating the speed and direction of ACX was going.
 
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And geez, why is it so difficult.

A.) Pilot House and Look Out should NEVER left empty, you cannot all go to sleep when the ship is in motion. If everyone is sleeping when the ship is in motion, then REGARDLESS of which party at fault, the Cargo ship action is to blame.

Was everyone on the Destroyer asleep too since they didn't see/detect the cargo ship?

the first course divergence on the track is the moment of collision

Mostly not going to happen considered that it was Crystal bow hitting Fitzgerald, Crystal is 30,000 ton dry (if they were empty) and 70,000 ton if they are loaded, Crystal would have push Fitzgerald thru the momentum where they were travelling, that mean Crystal would not steer right or starboard side (where the Fitzgerald is going) upon collision, instead, upon collision, Crystal should be going straight ahead and push smaller Fitzgerald out of the way. Or both ship was lodged together and it would go where Crystal is going until both have stopped and both ship untangle.

It was not a head-on but rather a side collision. at the point of the first divergence(seen on Crystal's GPS), the Destroyer is north and impacted with the cargo ship at south. From the damage photos it makes sense. Destroyer going SE, and cargo ship going E. Destroyer impact with cargo ship, autopilot on cargo ship make it go SE-ward.[assuming the collision happened when the cargo ship take the first SE turn on the GPS track from the pretty straight path heading east before.]


For what you said to happen, Fitzgerald have to be able to push the 30,000-70,000 tons Crystal to her starboard, or the Crystal have to be going starboard under her own power.

Action taken by autopilot after impact.


the loop back is when the Crystal turns around to go check on the Fitz

Then the Crystal would be caught trying to leave the scene without stopping, because it take Crystal 33 minutes to turn around, even if nobody is in the pilot house (which it should not be), it would not take them 33 minutes to reach the pilot house if there are no damage or fire on the bridge.

If that is the case, then ACX crystal would have to answer yet another question, why it took them 33 minutes to start turning back and more than 1 hours to get back to the scene.

Big cargo ship takes forever to stop. sailors on the Crystal are not high skilled professional, like the ones on the Destroyer. Ships impacted, sailors woke up no knowing what exactly happened, confused, toke a while to decide what to do, stop autopilot, loop back to accident point and check out what happened. all that took time.


Again, you do know if EVERYONE WAS ASLEEP, that would mean the ACX Crystal crew admit their guilt, mean it is ACX Crystal action to blame, right? They are not supposed to be all asleep at that point. That is some serious negligent here.

Again, was everyone also asleep on the destroyer? Ship(cargo ship) on starboard side have right of way, ship(destroyer) on port side should be the one first to take action to avoid collision. So, why was the Destroyer sailing so close to the cargo ship(reason, they didn't see/detected the mega size Cargo ship with professional sailors, AIS, world's most advance radar/detection/avoidance system)? If the people on the Destroyer saw/detected the autopilot cargo ship then why didn't they follow the navigational rules to take avoidance action?
 
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Was everyone on the Destroyer asleep too since they didn't see/detect the cargo ship?

The destroyer is not asleep, the circumstance is still under investigation, so as to why the ships crashes and why the US destroyer does not noticed, that is unanswerable question, but the OOD have to be on deck if the Captain was asleep, and there would be a skeleton crew on-board.

But it is a straight up violation if the Crystal crew is all asleep, that's a direct violation of rule 5 of IMO convention to prevent collision, so if this is the case, the whatever the US Ship does or does not do will not be a matter under navigation rules, the look out can be asleep or not watching the sea, but as long as they posted enough man to man the watch station, the destroyer can not be at fault. Because by law, Crystal have to have crew on Pilot House and Watch Station.


It was not a head-on but rather a side collision. at the point of the first divergence(seen on Crystal's GPS), the Destroyer is north and impacted with the cargo ship at south. From the damage photos it makes sense. Destroyer going SE, and cargo ship going E. Destroyer impact with cargo ship, autopilot on cargo ship make it go SE-ward.[assuming the collision happened when the cargo ship take the first SE turn on the GPS track from the pretty straight path heading east before.

Umm..no

At 1627 UTC, the first diversion, the Crystal is heading 070 (Heading NE) and change her heading to 088 at 1630 (Heading East), the only way it can hit the destroyer (if the collision time is 1630 as you and some one suggested) We do not know where the destroyer is heading, but After the crash, regardless of where the destroyer is heading the 30,000 - 70,000 tons cargo ship would have continue on course at 088 or slightly veer off course from the collision if the autopilot was not disengage, but not going all the way to 135 degree, a 8900 tons destroyer cannot push a cargo ship that far using her starboard.

If a crash like this happen, the cargoship would not have change course because of its inert mass, you are talking about a destroyer using her side to put to 30,000 to 70,000 tons ship (likely 70,000 tons because it was departing and should be fully loaded) for up to almost 50 degree in 3 minutes?? (from 088 to 135), I don't know about you but I don't think the engine on the destroyer are capable of that.....


Action taken by autopilot after impact.

Autopilot will not deviate from the course, if the autopilot was set to 070 or 088, they will make small adjustment (+/- 5 degree) but if you are talking about a 47 degree turn, unless it was input in before (a Way Point Turn) it is impossible for Iron Fist to correct itself that much, doing that much Iron Fist would have disengage.

According to my cousin, who had been at sea for 12 years with the USCG, modern Autopilot have both Gyro mode and Nav mode, Nav mode is a "Way-Point Navigation mode" using GPS assist to navigate a given course, gyro mode is like cruise control where t use the gyro function to keep the ship on course, unless it was prior input, a 47 degree turn would have the autopilot to leave the gyro mode and disengage the auto pilot, in short, autopilot would very highly likely to be disengaged after a crash, unless A.) A crash is not noticeable, B.) The autopilot malfunction

In fact, the action seems like someone at the pilot house and making manually.

Big cargo ship takes forever to stop. sailors on the Crystal are not high skilled professional, like the ones on the Destroyer. Ships impacted, sailors woke up no knowing what exactly happened, confused, toke a while to decide what to do, stop autopilot, loop back to accident point and check out what happened. all that took time.

I am not talking about to stop the ship in that paragraph, I am talking about preparing to stop. Meaning the ship started decelerating. It took the crew 16 minutes to start decelerate, meaning nothing was input at the pilot house in that 16 minutes, if they disengage the autopilot and helmsman would immediately put the ship on reverse, the speed will constantly decrease. This has not been done until 1652, according to AIS when the ships speed decrease from 14 to 12.9 then to 12.2 then to 12.3...and so on. BEfore 1452, ship is at almost constant speep, which include both acceleration and deceleration.

It took 22 minutes for the pilot of the ship to do something??


Again, was everyone also asleep on the destroyer? Ship(cargo ship) on starboard side have right of way, ship(destroyer) on port side should be the one first to take action to avoid collision. So, why was the Destroyer sailing so close to the cargo ship(reason, they didn't see/detected the mega size Cargo ship with professional sailors, AIS, world's most advance radar/detection/avoidance system)? If the people on the Destroyer saw/detected the autopilot cargo ship then why didn't they follow the navigational rules to take avoidance action?

Again, there are no "RIGHT OF WAY" in nautical term, everyone are supposed to watch where they are going (Read Rule 17 on IMO Convention to Prevent Collision). If the Destroyer does not stop or fail to stop, then the Cargo Ship, as a stand in, have the equal responsibility to stop.

Just because the Cargo Ship may be in a stand on position (from Starboard) and the destroyer is on a give way (port) position, that does not mean the Cargo Ship can just sit there and do nothing. There are rules that precede some rules, Rule 5 preceded Rule 15 which mean regardless on who's stand in and who's give way, if you do not post look out and everybody went to bed while the ship is in motion, then it will be your fault it crash on something.

I crashed and totalled a parked car 4 years ago because I was talking to my wife and got distracted and I did not look at the road for a few second, the car was parked illegally (on the side of a highway where you should not be park at that time) and the car I hit should not have been there, but in the end, who do you think have to paid for both car? I did, and I got a negligence driving charge, because I was supposed to look at the road, the car park illegally is not the problem in this case.

Beside, we don't even know if the destroyer had actually did try to avoid the cargoship by turning, if the destroyer turn, they may or may not be enough to dodge the cargoship, but they did yield.

Another point is we don't even if the US ship is actually at Give Way when both crashed.

How about the US Destroyer is to travel opposite to the cargo ship (so at heading 240 or 250)? With minimal distant which both ship would pass without incident? And then The cargo ship turn starboard at a sudden and hit the Destroyer at 1630? This can explain why the look out did not see it and why there are no collision alarm (collision alarm on the destroyer is automated) and why the Captain of the was still locked in his quarter?

Or how about the cargo ship is overtaken the Destroyer at their starboard and over compensate and hit the destroyer at their starboard? Again, it would have no notice this way.

US Ship MUST BE CREWED, I don't know what you know about the Navy and the Military, but regulation in the Military is a bit more discipline than in merchant navy, all NAVY Ship have to be manned at all time, it's funny to say the Navy ship crew is all asleep. They do have 4 watch crew rotation you know?
 
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The US Frit was partly to blame and is at fault, no doubt. A few facts need to be mentioned.

-ACX was on autopilot and had their AIS turned on but the crew was said to be asleep.
-the US Frit had their AIS turned off in busy water traffic. This is not a normal thing to do.

Given this fact, there is no way the ACX's AIS system can detect and alarm the crew of impending collision. Don't expect the US to accept their fault. It's an embarrassment that a high-tech ship with much more maneuverability than a moving ACX cannot avoid this collision. I see a case of negligent on the US Fritz in miscalculating the speed and direction of ACX was going.

You do not need to turn on AIS or Radar during voyage, as per IMO Navigation and Convention to Prevent Collision, however, you are required to put look out on your ship and pilot house when your ship are in motion. In fact, in most busy shipping way, you are not allow to transit without pilot or captain in the pilot house, you cannot transit thru suez canal and panama canal with Auto Pilot mode only.

AIS and Radar, on the other hand, are routinely turn off, especially on a warship, in warship, there is a condition called EMCON (EMission CONtrol) where it require the ship to transit with Mk 1 Eyeball and all navigation aid and radar or sonar turn off to limit EM Emission and avoid detection.

Also AIS does not detect anything, AIS is Automatic Identification System, which ID your ship and route, in case if your ship sink they will know where to find the wreckage, it act like Blackbox on the aircraft. It does not detect other ship, you can however, log on any AIS tracking site to monitor traffic that way, but primary collision avoidance are still done by Radar and Look Out.

And warship usually sail with their AIS off to begin with and AIS is not required to turn on by Warship, because it would be stupid for the nature of Warship (Would you want everyone know you were there when you are in operation?). AIS are required on Warship, but not required to turn on, AIS also not required to turn on Commercial Shipping except they are larger than 300 tons or passenger craft.

This is not about how high tech the ship is, nor how easy they can move away, if the Cargo Ship did not post look out and all crew were asleep transiting that busy Shipping Lane, this is basically gross negligent. You cannot set sail without a look out, especially within busy shipping lane.
 
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The USS Fitzgerald, a U.S. Navy Arleigh Burke class destroyer, collided with the shipping vessel ACX Crystal about 55 miles south of Yokosuka, Japan at 2:30AM local time. The Fitzgerald is badly damaged, with the starboard side of the ship's forward superstructure, right below its bridge and SPY-1 phased array radars, punched completely in. The ship is not moving under its own power and has been taking on water. It is unclear at this time if lives were lost or serious injuries occurred asa result on the mishap but that is likely to be the case.



The US Navy has requested support from the Japanese Coast Guard to assist the stricken ship. The condition of the Philippine flagged merchant vessel remains unknown at this time.

The Fitzgerald is forward-based in Japan and has been very active in region as of late, participating in large-scale exercises with two US aircraft carriers, a Japanese helicopter carrier and an array of other surface combatants near North Korean waters earlier in the month.

For More Details:-
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...-damaged-after-collision-with-merchant-vessel
From https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/litt...iles-for-next-deployment.405352/#post-9582804

A few initial thoughts:
1. "Ouch!"
2. "Well, there goes someone's command and career..."
3. "How could this happen?"
4. "That's gonna cost some to fix..."
5. "Sturdy vessels, them all-steel Arleigh Burkes!"
ddg-51-passive.gif

arleigh-burke-class-destroyer-deck-plans-spruance-class-destroyer-lrg-11d22cb2fd116677.jpg


such weak ship consider what will happen if missile strike it
What an uninformed BS reply.

It goes pretty fast near land...must be faster at sea.
Gross Tonnage: 29060
Deadweight: 39565 t
Length Overall x Breadth Extreme: 222.6m × 30.1m
Year Built: 2008
Draught 8m
Speed recorded (Max / Average) 15.8 / 15.0 knots

Read more at http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais...360611/vessel:ACX_CRYSTAL#YmdLGsYo17JEIZJ8.99

Speed: 25.3 knots (46.9 km/h; 29.1 mph)
Capacity: 2,858 teu containers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_ACX_Crystal
 
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From https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/litt...iles-for-next-deployment.405352/#post-9582804

A few initial thoughts:
1. "Ouch!"
2. "Well, there goes someone's command and career..."
3. "How could this happen?"
4. "That's gonna cost some to fix..."
5. "Sturdy vessels, them all-steel Arleigh Burkes!"
ddg-51-passive.gif

arleigh-burke-class-destroyer-deck-plans-spruance-class-destroyer-lrg-11d22cb2fd116677.jpg



What an uninformed BS reply.


Gross Tonnage: 29060
Deadweight: 39565 t
Length Overall x Breadth Extreme: 222.6m × 30.1m
Year Built: 2008
Draught 8m
Speed recorded (Max / Average) 15.8 / 15.0 knots

Read more at http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais...360611/vessel:ACX_CRYSTAL#YmdLGsYo17JEIZJ8.99

Speed: 25.3 knots (46.9 km/h; 29.1 mph)
Capacity: 2,858 teu containers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_ACX_Crystal
u.s problem is that it overstates its weapon capabilities to increase its value to earn money.how can a ship radar which is unable to detect such big cargo ship can detect enemies incoming missiles aircrafts and attack boats .these question u.s should answer otherwise statistics given by them has no value
 
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u.s problem is that it overstates its weapon capabilities to increase its value to earn money.how can a ship radar which is unable to detect such big cargo ship can detect enemies incoming missiles aircrafts and attack boats .these question u.s should answer otherwise statistics given by them has no value
None of this [overstating] happened in this case. I fail to see how your remark is relevant, not to mention that you've not taken note of any of JHunagry's very well informed posts and detailed explanations. Do not blame the US for your own failure to comprehend.
 
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Don't expect the US to accept their fault. It's an embarrassment that a high-tech ship with much more maneuverability than a moving ACX cannot avoid this collision. I see a case of negligent on the US Fritz in miscalculating the speed and direction of ACX was going.

US militarymen will not bite the hand that feeds them.
US militarymen have no interest in reviewing the facts. US militarymen are only desperately trying to defend US Navy.
 
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Perhaps they were speeding like the Titanic...there can be no excuses in this mishap...
 
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US Navy is lying. Collision occurred at 1:30am. Crystal was on auto pilot and all crew was asleep. After collision the crew made a U turn to find out what they hit. At 2:20am Crystal return to the site of the collusion and reported they had hit the US ship.
Not necessarily. It may simply be that the sequence of events wasn't clear yet at that time.

You posted this Monday. Yesterday (Wednesday 21st), the US Naval Institute (USNI) reported the following:
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According to the current operational theory of Japanese investigators, the deadly collision between USS Fitzgerald (DDG-62) and the Philippine-flagged merchant ship ACX Crystal knocked out the destroyer’s communications for an hour, while the four-times-larger merchant ship was unaware of what it hit until it doubled back and found the damaged warship, two sources familiar with the ongoing Japanese investigation told USNI News on Wednesday.

Investigators now think Crystal was transiting to Tokyo on autopilot with an inattentive or asleep crew when the merchant vessel struck a glancing blow on the destroyer’s starboard side at about 1:30 AM local time on Friday. When the crew of Crystal realized they had hit something, the ship performed a U-turn in the shipping lane and sped back to the initial site of the collision at 18 knots, discovered Fitzgerald, and radioed a distress call to authorities at about 2:30 AM. U.S. Navy officials initially said the collision occurred at around the time of the distress call at 2:30 AM.
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Above the waterline, the flared bow of Crystal caved in several spaces in the superstructure, including the stateroom of commanding officer Cmdr. Bryce Benson.

The impact not only ripped a hole in the steel superstructure in the stateroom but also shifted the contents and shape of the steel so Benson was “squeezed out the hull and was outside the skin of the ship,” a sailor familiar with the damage to the ship told USNI News. “He’s lucky to be alive.”

Fitzgerald sailors had to bend back the door of the stateroom to pluck Benson from the side of the ship and bring him inside. He and two other sailors were later evacuated from the ship via a Japanese helicopter to a Navy hospital at Yokosuka.
...
“Three compartments were severely damaged,” Aucoin said at the Saturday press conference.
“One machinery room and two berthing areas — berthing areas for 116 of the crew.”

The seven sailors who died aboard were sealed in the berthing area behind a watertight door as the ship’s company fought to keep the ship afloat, according to a description of events the Navy told the family of Fire Controlman 1st Class Gary Leo Rehm Jr., according to The Associated Press.
It’s yet unclear if the ship’s watch had time to sound the collision alarm or call general quarters before Crystal hit the destroyer.

In addition to the damage to the spaces, the collision knocked out Fitzgeralds communications for the better part of an hour. At about the same time the crew was able to reactivate their backup Iridium satellite communications to radio for help, Crystal arrived on the scene and called in its own distress call, the sailor told USNI News.
U.S. Navy investigators are being tight-lipped about details of the investigation, even inside the service. However, information USNI News learned from the Japan Coast Guard investigation indicates Fitzgerald was operating normally when the collision occurred, raising questions more questions regarding why Benson wasn’t on the bridge when a contact was so close to the destroyer.

On Monday, U.S 7th Fleet began a flag officer-led Judge Advocate General Manual (JAGMAN) investigation to determine the facts of the collision, as well as a separate U.S. Navy safety investigation. The U.S. Coast Guard will take lead in a maritime casualty investigation.

As for the ship, five days after collision active damage control efforts are ongoing to prevent further damage to the hull. The force of Crystal’s impact combined with the flood not only dented but twisted the ship’s hull. Crews are continuing to pump water in and out of the ship to keep Fitzgerald stable.
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https://news.usni.org/2017/06/21/in...for-an-hour-before-distress-call-reached-help

The United States Naval Institute (USNI), based in Annapolis, Maryland, is a private, non-profit (EIN:52-0643040), professional military association that seeks to offer independent, nonpartisan forums for debate of national defense and security issues. In addition to publishing magazines and books, the Naval Institute holds several annual conferences.
  • Established in 1873, the Naval Institute currently has about 50,000 members, mostly active and retired personnel of the United States Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard. The organization also has members in over 90 countries.
  • The organization has no official or funding ties to the United States Naval Academy or the U.S. Navy, although it is based on the grounds of the Naval Academy through permission granted by a 1936 Act of Congress.
  • The Naval Institute's mission is “to provide an independent forum for those who dare to read, think, speak, and write to advance the professional, literary, and scientific understanding of sea power and other issues critical to global security.”
  • The organization's vision is to “give voice to those who seek the finest Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard.”
  • Its chair is former NATO Supreme Allied Commander Europe James G. Stavridis, a retired Navy admiral. Its CEO is Peter H. Daly, a retired Navy vice admiral.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Naval_Institute
 
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US militarymen will not bite the hand that feeds them.
US militarymen have no interest in reviewing the facts. US militarymen are only desperately trying to defend US Navy.
Or perhaps it is just you that:
will not bite the hand that feeds you.
has no interest in reviewing the facts.
is only desperately trying to put the US Navy in a bad light.
 
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Or perhaps it is just you that:
will not bite the hand that feeds you.
has no interest in reviewing the facts.
is only desperately trying to put the US Navy in a bad light.

Or perhaps it is just you that:
will not bite the hand that feeds you.
has no interest in reviewing the facts.
is only desperately trying to put the US Navy in a good light

It’s a statement of fact that:
US militarymen will not bite the hand that feeds them.
US militarymen have no interest in reviewing the facts.
US militarymen are only desperately trying to defend US Navy.

Do you know what happened to Edward Snowden after he revealed the truth about US eavesdropping ?
He had to flee USA and received death threats from US apparatchiks. All because he said the truth about "USA".
 
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It’s a statement of fact that:
US militarymen will not bite the hand that feeds them.
US militarymen have no interest in reviewing the facts.
US militarymen are only desperately trying to defend US Navy.
Only if you equate your OPINION with FACT

Do you know what happened to Edward Snowden after he revealed the truth about US eavesdropping ?
He had to flee USA and received death threats from US apparatchiks. All because he said the truth about "USA".
Sure, try to change topic. For lack of substantive reply.
 
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