US ship involved in accident.

[war&peace]

This is really bizarre incident. Naval ships are equipped with multiple sensors to monitor the sea.

 

[F-22Raptor]

All 7 missing sailors have been found dead in flooded compartments. Heads will roll.

 

[jhungary]

All 7 missing sailors have been found dead in flooded compartments. Heads will roll.

yes, the captain will have to answer to this even if it was not at fault, because for a Naval Captain, the ship's crew is under his command, and if an accident is avoidable and even it was not at fault, he will still be on hook for command failure resulting death or serious injury to person or persons under his/her command

We need more information to assign blame, but I can see the Captain career is all but over.

This is really bizarre incident. Naval ships are equipped with multiple sensors to monitor the sea.

Read post #23

you are not required to turn on the surface radar when you are transiting the high seas, the naval ship could have been on EMCON, where they may only posted look out.

Even if the radar is turned on, and they spot the ship, they cannot know that is on collision course until both ship's communicate to each other. Either by radio contact, signal or blast horn. If not, the only thing the Navy ship can do is to sink the cargo ship using harpoon.....with a radar lock

Also, it's appear that ACX Crystal change course within 30 minutes before the collision. According to online Marine Traffic monitor, Crystal make a U-Turn on 1729 UTC. (approximately 20 minutes before the collision)

 

[gambit]

This is the same question I asked my cousin, who is a CPO in the United States Coast Guard with 11 years of USCG service and her answer is as follow.

Hope that help

Your answer is too long. Requires too much attention. Takes people out of their comfort zone, that of making the US responsible for everything bad.

 

[Tom99]

No........What you said is merging traffic, not crossing traffics.

eh, no.

check this:

https://www.boat-ed.com/nasbla_nav_...ve-Way-and-Stand-On-Vessels/182099_700071100/

Now, look at the diagram there and then look at the damage on the boats from the photos.

The U.S. Navy destroyer USS Fitzgerald is the Give-Way Vessel while the Container ship is the Stand-On Vessel.

The Crossing Rule:

• Give-Way Vessel - If you are the Give-Way vessel, you must act as if the "stand-on" vessel has the right to keep going the way it is going. It is your responsibility to signal your intentions to the stand-on vessel, and it is your responsibility to maneuver your boat around the other in a safe manner. Also known as a "Burdened" vessel, as it has the burden of.
• Stand-On Vessel - If you are the Stand-On vessel, it is your responsibility to acknowledge the intended actions of the give-way vessel. You must also maintain your current course and speed until the give-way vessel passes, or you enter a dangerous situation.

From Navigation Center of U.S. Department of Homeland Security.
https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesContent#rule15

Rule 15 - Crossing Situation

(a) When two power-driven vessels are crossing so as to involve risk of collision, the vessel which has the other on her own starboard side shall keep out of the way and shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid crossing ahead of the other vessel.

Rule 16 - Action by Give-way Vessel

Every vessel which is directed to keep out of the way of another vessel shall, so far as possible, take early and substantial action to keep well clear.

Rule 17- Action by Stand-on Vessel (a) (i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and speed.

 

[jhungary]

Your answer is too long. Requires too much attention. Takes people out of their comfort zone, that of making the US responsible for everything bad.

lol.......Alright, I am going to summarize what do we know so far.

-USS Fitzgerald (DDG-62) and AC Crystal involved in this collision
-USS Fitzgerald was damaged on the Starboard (Right) Side, Crystal damaged on Bow
-BBC report ACX Crystal changed course appox. 20 minutes prior to collision

-Captain of USS Fitzgerald was likely in his stateroom during the collision (Suggesting no collision warning was sounded)
- 7 Sailor was killed in the incident. All drown in their berth (Again suggest no collision warning was sounded)
- No one injured in ACX Crystal

eh, no.

check this:

https://www.boat-ed.com/nasbla_nav_...ve-Way-and-Stand-On-Vessels/182099_700071100/

Now, look at the diagram there and then look at the damage on the boats from the photos.

The U.S. Navy destroyer USS Fitzgerald is the Give-Way Vessel while the Container ship is the Stand-On Vessel.

The Crossing Rule:

• Give-Way Vessel - If you are the Give-Way vessel, you must act as if the "stand-on" vessel has the right to keep going the way it is going. It is your responsibility to signal your intentions to the stand-on vessel, and it is your responsibility to maneuver your boat around the other in a safe manner. Also known as a "Burdened" vessel, as it has the burden of.
• Stand-On Vessel - If you are the Stand-On vessel, it is your responsibility to acknowledge the intended actions of the give-way vessel. You must also maintain your current course and speed until the give-way vessel passes, or you enter a dangerous situation.

That was void by Rule 2 and 17 from IMO International for Preventing Collision.

http://www.mar.ist.utl.pt/mventura/Projecto-Navios-I/IMO-Conventions (copies)/COLREG-1972.pdf

(a). Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.
(b). In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

Rule 17

Action by stand-on vessel (a).
(i). Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way the other shall keep her course and speed.
(ii). The latter vessel may however take action to avoid collision by her manoeuvre alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules.
(b). When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision.
(c). A power-driven vessel which takes action in a crossing situation in accordance with subparagraph (a)(ii) of this Rule to avoid collision with another power-driven vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, not alter course to port for a vessel on her own port side.
(d). This Rule does not relieve the give-way vessel of her obligation to keep out of the way.

That mean give way vessel may not be the one that need to change course, if the action was not enough to prevent collision, the "stand-on" still require to change course if that happen, which essentially mean both give way and stand on vessel both have the responsibility to change course to avoid collision. There are no "Right-Of-Way" to any vessel, be that give way or stand on.

Beside, ACX Crystal did alter the course and put themselves in the collision course with USS Fitzgerald, it did a 180 degree turn 15 to 20 minutes prior to collision

Which mean it is the ACX Crystal responsibility to keep clear of all traffic when she turn around. She put herself on course to collision even tho doing so will put them at "Stand-On" or privileged position.

If I suddenly U-Turn and hit you, would that be your fault for not yield to my you turn? Even if that happened in from of a give way sign?

 

[kris]

According to Maritime Record

http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais...mmsi:548789000/imo:9360611/vessel:ACX_CRYSTAL

the USS Fitzgerald is a 9,600 tons ship, ACX Crystal have an empty weight of 29,060 tons and fully loaded dead weight almost 40,000 tons, it was 3- 4 times weight than the USS Fitzgerald, the Fitzgerald is actually quite strong to survive a crash like that. The force of 20,000 tons (if the ACX Crystal is empty) at 10 second contact at 16.8 knots would mean 30 millions newton of force in case you don't know, it's equal to a ~0.3kt Nuclear Bomb. Which is greater than any missile power in the world (Bar nuclear missile)

Calculate the N/s here

http://calculator.tutorvista.com/impact-force-calculator.html

And a hit like that and the ship is still under power itself is saying something..

It's not a head on collision
Not all the momentum will be transferred

 

[jhungary]

It's not a head on collision
Not all the momentum will be transferred

no, that's why I use 20,000 tons (the net different between an Empty Crystal and empty Fitzgerald (29,060 - 9000 tons) if a head on collision, the tonnage would have been the weight of Crystal combine with Fitzgerald.

 

[Tom99]

Which mean it is the ACX Crystal responsibility to keep clear of all traffic when she turn around. She put herself on course to collision even tho doing so will put them at "Stand-On" or privileged position.

If I suddenly U-Turn and hit you, would that be your fault for not yield to my you turn? Even if that happened in from of a give way sign?
...
Beside, it turn out ACX Crystal did alter the course and put themselves in the collision course with USS Fitzgerald, it did a 180 degree turn 15 to 20 minutes prior to collision

Yes, it would still be my fault if I collided with you after you made your U-Turn 20 minutes ago because I am not following the navigational rules.

 

[jhungary]

Yes, it would still be my fault if I collided with you after you made your U-Turn 20 minutes ago because I am not following the navigational rules.

Dude, 20 minutes in car is different than 20 minutes on a ship especially a cargoship....

In nautical law, a safe distant is 6 nautical mile. Which is where your lights can be seen by other vessel. For ACX Crystal is travelling at 14.6 knots, which mean it did 14.6 nautical mile in a hours, 20 minutes would mean the distant between the two ship is at 4.8 nautical mile (possibly shorter assume Fritzgerald is going slower or equal in speed).

Which mean the cargo ship should not be turning around if he had know the Fitzgerald is behind her within 6 nautical mile, and she turning around and put herself on the collision course, it would be the Cargoship fault.

 

[ashok321]

 

[KAL-EL]

Your answer is too long. Requires too much attention. Takes people out of their comfort zone, that of making the US responsible for everything bad.

In particular the typical hyper nationalist types here that specialize in the echo chamber circle-jerk.

 

[AndrewJin]

wow, powerful Trump spirit!

 

[Tom99]

Dude, 20 minutes in car is different than 20 minutes on a ship especially a cargoship....

In nautical law, a safe distant is 6 nautical mile. Which is where your lights can be seen by other vessel. For ACX Crystal is travelling at 14.6 knots, which mean it did 14.6 nautical mile in a hours, 20 minutes would mean the distant between the two ship is at 4.8 nautical mile (possibly shorter assume Fritzgerald is going slower or equal in speed).

Which mean the cargo ship should not be turning around if he had know the Fitzgerald is behind her within 6 nautical mile, and she turning around and put herself on the collision course, it would be the Cargoship fault.

I don't have any information regarding the path the Destroyer ship have taken or how far apart they were at any given time before the collision. Since you have the facts, can you please link them?

Even if you say the distance between the two ships is 4.8 Nm at that critical time, the agile Destroyer still should have plenty of time to follow and obey the navigational rules therefore avoided the container ship.

 

[jhungary]

I don't have any information regarding the path the Destroyer ship have taken or how far apart they were at any given time before the collision. Since you have the facts, can you please link them?

Even if you say the distance between the two ships is 4.8 Nm at that critical time, the agile Destroyer still should have plenty of time to follow and obey the navigational rules therefore avoided the container ship.

It wouldn't have.

Considering the Destroyer also travel at her own speed (Whatever her speed was) when the cargoship turn around, the destroy would have half the time (7- 10 minutes) or less to notice the change and change its course or stop and avoid the collision. 7 to 10 minutes may not be able to stop the ship.

A destroyer may not be able to notice the ship have change course as well (depends on how and the relative position of both ship) in the time the Crystal is turning around, unless Crystal contact Fitzgerald before making a turn, the Fitzgerald would have to wait until at least Crystal to complete its turn before the crew from the Fitzgerald know Crystal have turn a 180.

In reality, because Crystal would have to slow to turn around and Most Likely the Fitzgerald would continue it course at the same speed, you are talking about a time frame significantly smaller than 7 to 10 minutes for Fitzgerald to prepare to change course.

That is the reason why the master of a vessel need to know where the other ship is before changing course. That is the same reason why light are visible 6 nautical miles out. They should be able to see Fitzgerald and her light and they should have wait until the ship pass before turning around.