US plans to sell M777 howitzers to India; deal to involve 'Make in India' component

[Abingdonboy]

Obviously these will be used against Pakistan. The Indian answer will be the limp argument its against China. By saying that, they dont want to admit us worthy of being an opponent as to them it diminishes their perceived 'world power' status.
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Nope, they are specifically ear marked for the Indian Army's Eastern Command's Mountain Strike Corps (MSC)- Headquatered in Panagarh West Bengal. Once again, Pakistanis trying to create a false narrative of Indian "obsession" with Pakistan.

Pakistan too should do the cry baby stuff that India did on purchase of merely 8 F-16s.

Once more, false equivalency- India is paying for these in full, not having this deal subsidised by aid money hence there is no scope for Pakistan to object.

 

[waz]

Am expecting more from US after their betrayal over 8 f16s to Pakistan... Hopefully more fdi will flow in with armed drones...

How did the US "betray" India? Pakistan is an ally and the US sold it weapons. If you feel so strongly about it, why don't you stop all your present defence deals with them?
Strange post.

 

[Abingdonboy]

How did the US "betray" India? Pakistan is an ally and the US sold it weapons. If you feel so strongly about it, why don't you stop all your present defence deals with them?
Strange post.

*Naive.

 

[ravinderpalrulez]

NEW DELHI: India may finally exorcise its Bofors ghost of 30 years. After several years of hard-nosed negotiations, which also saw the proposed deal being stalled for a couple of years, the US government on Monday finally submitted an over $700 million offer for India to acquire 145 M-777 ultra-light howitzers..
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Sources said the Pentagon's "letter of offer and acceptance (LoA)", submitted to the Indian defence ministry under the American foreign military sales (FMS) programme, is now likely to lead to a government-to-government contract within 180 days..
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"We are also at an advanced stage of mutually deciding the Indian partners in the deal, who will establish the AIT (assembly, integration and testing) facility here. While the first lot will be delivered directly, the bulk of the 145 howitzers (manufactured by BAE Systems) will be assembled in India over three years," said a ministry source..
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The contract will entail a 30% offset clause, under which around $210 million will be invested back into India. The LoA for the M-777s comes at a time when India is incensed with the US decision to sell another eight F-16 fighters to Pakistan for $700 million.
But that is unlikely to impede the howitzer deal, with US having overtaken Russia, Israel and France to turn India's largest arms supplier over the last four years. Just since 2007, US has bagged Indian arms deals worth over $13 billion..
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It was almost a decade ago that the 1.18-million strong Army had first demanded the induction of 155mm/39-calibre light-weight howitzers, which could be airlifted swiftly to "threatened highaltitude areas" along the 4,057-km LAC with China..
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The air-mobile M-777s, partly made of titanium, have a strike range of over 25-km. They will help the Army somewhat address the stark military asymmetry with China, which has the infrastructure in place to swiftly mobilise troops and equipment to outnumber Indian forces 3:1along the LAC..
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The ultra-light howitzers are meant to equip the new 17 Mountain Strike Corps, which is to be fully raised with 90,274 troops at a cost of Rs 64,678 crore by 2021..
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The Army has not been able to induct even one modern 155mm howitzer for over 30 years now because of recurring scandals, which began with the Swedish Bofors in the mid-1980s and was then followed by South African Denel, Israeli Soltam and Singapore Technology Kinetic's (STK) in later years. The M-777 is set to break the jinx.
Source- toi

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Dhanush broke that. L&T/Samsung is shortlisted, so the K9 'Vajra' will also probably beat this deal.

 

[Maarkhoor]

NEW DELHI: India may finally exorcise its Bofors ghost of 30 years. After several years of hard-nosed negotiations, which also saw the proposed deal being stalled for a couple of years, the US government on Monday finally submitted an over $700 million offer for India to acquire 145 M-777 ultra-light howitzers.

Sources said the Pentagon's "letter of offer and acceptance (LoA)", submitted to the Indian defence ministry under the American foreign military sales (FMS) programme, is now likely to lead to a government-to-government contract within 180 days.

"We are also at an advanced stage of mutually deciding the Indian partners in the deal, who will establish the AIT (assembly, integration and testing) facility here. While the first lot will be delivered directly, the bulk of the 145 howitzers (manufactured by BAE Systems) will be assembled in India over three years," said a ministry source.

The contract will entail a 30% offset clause, under which around $210 million will be invested back into India. The LoA for the M-777s comes at a time when India is incensed with the US decision to sell another eight F-16 fighters to Pakistan for $700 million.

But that is unlikely to impede the howitzer deal, with US having overtaken Russia, Israel and France to turn India's largest arms supplier over the last four years. Just since 2007, US has bagged Indian arms deals worth over $13 billion.It was almost a decade ago that the 1.18-million strong Army had first demanded the induction of 155mm/39-calibre light-weight howitzers, which could be airlifted swiftly to "threatened highaltitude areas" along the 4,057-km LAC with China.

he air-mobile M-777s, partly made of titanium, have a strike range of over 25-km. They will help the Army somewhat address the stark military asymmetry with China, which has the infrastructure in place to swiftly mobilise troops and equipment to outnumber Indian forces 3:1along the LAC.


The ultra-light howitzers are meant to equip the new 17 Mountain Strike Corps, which is to be fully raised with 90,274 troops at a cost of Rs 64,678 crore by 2021.

The Army has not been able to induct even one modern 155mm howitzer for over 30 years now because of recurring scandals, which began with the Swedish Bofors in the mid-1980s and was then followed by South African Denel, Israeli Soltam and Singapore Technology Kinetic's (STK) in later years. The M-777 is set to break the jinx.


Mega US howitzer deal to break Bofors jinx - Times of India

 

[Great Sachin]

NEW DELHI: The US has finalised a proposal to sell M777 ultra-light howitzers to India under a direct government-to-government deal, with Washington expected to send a formal 'Letter of Acceptance' this week. The light artillery gun deal, worth over $700 million, will also involve a significant 'Make in India' component with Mahindra expected to bag a major share of the work contract.


Read more at:
US plans to sell M777 howitzers to India; deal to involve 'Make in India' component - The Economic Times

 

[Water Car Engineer]

So lets see

New aerospace plant by TATA, initially for Airbus transports - check

New plant for assembly and testing of armored systems by L&T, initially for K9 "Vajras" - check

New plant for assembly and testing of artillery systems by Mahindra, initially for M777- check

Construction of talwar frigates by Reliance shipyard - check

Yeeeeeeeessssssss

 

[Great Sachin]

More to follow....

 

[Penguin]

Once more, false equivalency- India is paying for these in full, not having this deal subsidised by aid money hence there is no scope for Pakistan to object.

Both India and Pakistan use FMS. Note Foreign Military Sale does not automatically imply that the acquisition is paid for from country national funds. DSCA notification speak only of 'estimated cost'. One needs to check how the sale is financed e.g. if an FMS deal is coupled to FMF. The FMS announcements to not reveal this. In addition there may be transfer of excess defence articles, where not the unit but the transfer is paid by the recipient. (see e.g. USS McInerney > PNS Alamgir, USS Trenton > INS Jalashwa)

Foreign Military Sales (FMS).
Under FMS the US Government and a foreign government enter into a government-to-government sales agreement. May be funded by country national funds or US Government funds.
Foreign Military Sales (FMS) | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency

Foreign Military Financing (FMF)
FMF enables eligible partner nations to purchase U.S. defense articles, services, and training through either FMS or , for a limited number of countries, through Direct Commercial Contracts (DCC) channels. FMF is a source of financing and may be provided to a partner nation on either a grant (non-repayable) or direct loan basis.
Foreign Military Financing (FMF) | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency

Excess Defense Articles (EDA)
Transfers excess defense equipment to foreign governments or international organizations. Typically used for modernization of partner forces. Excess defense articles provided to partner nation at a reduced price (based on the condition of the equipment) or as a grant. Partner nations pay for packing, crating, handling, and transportation (PCH&T), as well as refurbishment if applicable – EDA is “as is, where is”.
Excess Defense Articles (EDA) | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency

 

[Abingdonboy]

Both India and Pakistan use FMS. Note Foreign Military Sale does not automatically imply that the acquisition is paid for from country national funds. DSCA notification speak only of 'estimated cost'. One needs to check how the sale is financed e.g. if an FMS deal is coupled to FMF. The FMS announcements to not reveal this. In addition there may be transfer of excess defence articles, where not the unit but the transfer is paid by the recipient. (see e.g. USS McInerney > PNS Alamgir, USS Trenton > INS Jalashwa)

The F-16s are being subsidised by the FMF ie military aid, India doesn't take military aid from the US and all of its recent purchases- C-17, C-130J-30, AH-64E, CH-47F, P-8I, Harpoon and the M777 have been paid for in full by India.

The FMF element is what India is objecting to as the F-16s are being proposed to counter insurgency but clearly are aimed at India. It is the FMF element that will face issues from the US Congress in the coming days:

Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Bob Corker notified the Obama administration that he would not approve using U.S. funds to pay for the planes through the foreign military financing (FMF) program.
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"I may reconsider my blanket hold on U.S. FMF assistance should the Pakistanis make progress on addressing my significant concerns about their support for the Haqqani network, but for now, if they wish to purchase this military equipment, they will do so without a subsidy from the American taxpayer," he wrote.

U.S. OKs sale of 8 Lockheed F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan - Pentagon| Reuters


So yes, it is is false equivalency- India is paying for its purchases upfront- no question asked, Pakistan is trying to get its conventional weapons ostensibly to be used against India through the fallacy of needing them to fight terrorism. Thus the Indian government has every right to object.

 

[Penguin]

Still, It was rather blatantly stated here in this thread that Pakistan would taste the M777 (post #30).

But no hair of my back.


As for India not receiving US military aid, India is placed at 47 out of a list of 193 countries that got US Military aid 1946-2012, receiving $897 million in military assistance. And economic aid potentially frees up money for other uses.
India biggest recipient of US economic assistance over 66-year period: USAID - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

 

[Abingdonboy]

Still, It was rather blatantly stated here in this thread that Pakistan would taste the M777 (post #30).

But no hair of my back.


As for India not receiving US military aid, India is placed at 47 out of a list of 193 countries that got US Military aid 1946-2012, receiving $897 million in military assistance. And economic aid potentially frees up money for other uses.
India biggest recipient of US economic assistance over 66-year period: USAID - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

No military aid was given to India, economic - not military and it certainly doesn't happen today so why split hairs?

 

[raktaka]

No military aid was given to India, economic - not military and it certainly doesn't happen today so why split hairs?

He is talking about the aid provided in 1962 during our war with China Kennedy was the president back then.

 

[Penguin]

He is talking about the aid provided in 1962 during our war with China Kennedy was the president back then.

I'm not talking about anything, Dawn is.

There would be little benefit to a truck mounted M777 as its primary benefit is being light weight and thus air-mobile. The M777 is made from a high degree of lightweight materials such as titanium but this also makes it comparable expensive. For MGS/SPG, longer barrels are used for greater range.

The M777 needs a towing vehicle. The particular towing vehicle I referred to can also load, carry and unload the whle gun . You can probably ma better road speed with the portee than with a traditional towing combination. Airmobility is not lost (as opposed to a 155m fixed onto a truck chassis).