US Pilot: Thanks To Espionage, Chinese Stealth Fighters Could Match The F-35

[Chinese-Dragon]

If you read the article, some of the events listed as contributors do go far beyond a natural famine, If you think that is incorrect, i was hoping for something that discredits the claims in Mr Dikötter book.

Sure, it was a famine caused by failed economic policy. Specifically the idea that farmers should stop farming, and instead make iron in their back yards, to massively boost China's industrial output.

The iron turned out to be pig iron. And since the farmers were not working in the fields, there was not enough food being produced. Which resulted in a famine.

The worst famine in our history, which Nehru saw and took advantage of in 1962.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

The worst famine in our history, which Nehru saw and took advantage of in 1962.

Slight correction. Nehru did not take advantage of it in 1962. He was in no position to do so.

 

[Donatello]

Interesting query... Considering China being at its peak now, China's expenditure on military with it's enormous wealth for 2010-2014 was 2.1%, 2.0%, 2..0% and 2.1%....
That is indeed ideal and very commendable...

From your noble thought process
More money= more cash to spend on military and other social sectors. Less money, same spending on defense, means less for social welfare. It's pretty simple, not that hard to figure out.

you might want to communicate that to your leaders to as pakistan at it's probably worst ever performing economy spent from 2010-2014 - 3.4%, 3.3%, 3.4% and 3.4% of it's GDP, more than China, the one with all the wealth!

Military expenditure (% of GDP) | Data | Table

Where did Pakistan get in this? In any case, a typical defense expenditure as % of GDP is 2%-4%, Countries like Israel will spend more, so will Pakistan because of constant operations and military expenditures. We have an active war ongoing. Once this is settled, the % can go down.

My original point was, if China wanted to spend more, it could easily do that. There is no shortage of money for them. You went on about i don't know what to beat about the bush.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

welcome to how pentagon secures funds.

this was routine during cold war too...we know how that turned out..

you have a point but I must say
no matter how much spying the Chinese do
they lack the intellect and knowledge base built over years of R&D
the method of making A bomb is out there and so are the books on MBBS but not everyone is father of Nuclear bomb and Medical science just because he can buy some books

the stolen secrets might help Chinese to some extent but they cant replicate 100% of the original.
if Russia and USA spy on each other then it might be different story because they are much closer to each other than the Chinese will ever be

 

[Cat Shannon]

you have a point but I must say
no matter how much spying the Chinese do
they lack the intellect and knowledge base built over years of R&D
the method of making A bomb is out there and so are the books on MBBS but not everyone is father of Nuclear bomb and Medical science just because he can buy some books

the stolen secrets might help Chinese to some extent but they cant replicate 100% of the original.
if Russia and USA spy on each other then it might be different story because they are much closer to each other than the Chinese will ever be

one of the major major advances china has made is in 3d printing, and they are still improving it to handle harder or sophistical material. this directly translates to their defence production too. but there are limitations with 3d printing. forging and casting may be slower but surer. still..

plus, when it was brought out that f35 data was stolen, designers went to work again, and that was one of the reasons with the second long delay. look at the advantage, f35 designers know exactly what data has been stolen. whose advantage it will turn out to be of ? that's the other side of the coin which chinese underplay.

 

[Cat Shannon]

The pilot made the comments because maybe he saw something? Here are the things needed for a stealth aircraft design:
1-Lots of money, China has it, so issues there

2-The mathematics pertaining to the structure/shape. Since USA did all the hardwork with those trapezoid and flat angles, you don't have to repeat it yourself. Newton presented calculus to us. You can do that all over again and arrive at the same result. Or simply use it the way it is meant to be used. Engineering is all about putting to use those equations. We don't give a shyt why an equation works the way it works. We need to know how and where to use it. So lots of stealth design literature is available. Hence, all the 'stealth' designs in operation (B2, F117,F22,F35) have similar geometry. Is it any surprise that the Russian T-50 and Chinese J-20 end up with the same? So that bulk of the work has already been cut short for you.

3-Electronics, which are jammers, weapons guidance, avionics FBW, radars etc, this is something where China lacks, but has made tremendous gains due to inputs from Russia (AESA, seekers etc) and PAKISTAN (F-16 blk15 cockpit design is masterpiece itself) Pakistan showed the China how west went about doing it's man machine interface, a department where even the Russians struggled. (Check the initial F-16 cockpit interface compared to a Mig29)

4-Engines. Low heat, high thrust, high reliability. This is the biggest challenge for China. Since metallurgy is extremely hard to copy and produce, they are stuck there, but eventually will get there. Check F-22's engines. Each engine is extremely powerful and reliable.

5-The usual finishing touches like reduce your electronic and radio leakage, RAM coating, metal spheres in special paint over the body etc etc


So out of the 5 main challenges i highlighted (Please add any that i missed) China needs to work on the Engines most. Rest of it, they are catching up very fast.

Now, do you know how i know this? Because Electrical/Electronic/Optics engineering is where China is funding the most research at it's academic institutes. Take a trip to any major Western university and you'll find Chinese students doing their post graduate and PhDs in subjects like these..........high temperature SiC sensors, Diamond science and Technology, Photonics.....etc. They will be taking back this knowledge to China. A lot of them are funded by their government. Guess where they will end up working? Yes, the state owned defense firms.


So it is not if China can build a F-35 level fighter, but when and how soon. BTW, F-35 is no where near F-22, otherwise F-22 would be up for exports as well.

ok, i'll try answering them point by point. point out how these points apply or not apply in case of the chinese stealth birds, in my opinion, here we go :

1. money means nothing if not putting that into R&D. nobody sells real stealth tech to any other country. so the money thing is only gonna be a feed into R&D. better salaries, better infrastructures etc etc...so in itself, it is not a key factor per se, my point.

2. true but the devil here is in the...yes, details. overall aerodynamics dictates similar structure, but exact angles, maybe grooves on them at certain angles to do few things, measurements, these are crucial to stealth. that's where prior understanding of the stealth comes in. if you're starting, you might be ok with a t-50 or a j-20 but, that product has to become a product by itself. and that will take time.

3. you agree chinese avionics is not up to the western mark. unfortunately russia is there between west and china. tech wise. that is precisely why china has to indulge in cyber stealing and hacking of sensitive data regarding the f-35. only the problem is when data has been stolen, they also tell what is gonna be on j20 and j31. it's the corollary. it will be very close if not almost a copy, chinese respect the reliability of western designs of weapons. plus they think like businessmen, they are gonna tout j31 as a poor man's f35. selling point being, see exact things, only no uncle sam, only the ccp. still point being it will be easy for a f35 to detect both j20 and j31 if they do not do extensive changes to any avionics data stolen from the f35 project. pentagon already knows what was stolen.

4. engines, yes. forget it, they haven't been able to successfully copy a flanker engine, and russians have wisened up. it will again has to be reverse engineered. even russia hasn't come up with a good engine for pakfa. engine is where the j20 and j31 will lack the key factors.

5. china is upto date with that stuff. mostly, that shouldn't be a problem, but real stealth doesn't come from coatings, it's a structural thing with the surface. everything fits in, a lighter structure like baked in surfaces of f-22 make the plane a lot more lighter allowing more weapon carrying, you know, the works..

china is working on it, but that hype, I simply don't buy because of technical reasons, right now, china is argueably behind both the f35 consortium and russia in that order.

it will take time, once those guys come back, they will need a bit of time to integrate that into a goal specific program. it will take time. thankfully, asia is not in mood of a real war for the next 10-15 years. not china. do read behind the propaganda. what it tells you is what you shouldn't believe.

 

[Donatello]

ok, i'll try answering them point by point. point out how these points apply or not apply in case of the chinese stealth birds, in my opinion, here we go :

1. money means nothing if not putting that into R&D. nobody sells real stealth tech to any other country. so the money thing is only gonna be a feed into R&D. better salaries, better infrastructures etc etc...so in itself, it is not a key factor per se, my point.

2. true but the devil here is in the...yes, details. overall aerodynamics dictates similar structure, but exact angles, maybe grooves on them at certain angles to do few things, measurements, these are crucial to stealth. that's where prior understanding of the stealth comes in. if you're starting, you might be ok with a t-50 or a j-20 but, that product has to become a product by itself. and that will take time.

3. you agree chinese avionics is not up to the western mark. unfortunately russia is there between west and china. tech wise. that is precisely why china has to indulge in cyber stealing and hacking of sensitive data regarding the f-35. only the problem is when data has been stolen, they also tell what is gonna be on j20 and j31. it's the corollary. it will be very close if not almost a copy, chinese respect the reliability of western designs of weapons. plus they think like businessmen, they are gonna tout j31 as a poor man's f35. selling point being, see exact things, only no uncle sam, only the ccp. still point being it will be easy for a f35 to detect both j20 and j31 if they do not do extensive changes to any avionics data stolen from the f35 project. pentagon already knows what was stolen.

4. engines, yes. forget it, they haven't been able to successfully copy a flanker engine, and russians have wisened up. it will again has to be reverse engineered. even russia hasn't come up with a good engine for pakfa. engine is where the j20 and j31 will lack the key factors.

5. china is upto date with that stuff. mostly, that shouldn't be a problem, but real stealth doesn't come from coatings, it's a structural thing with the surface. everything fits in, a lighter structure like baked in surfaces of f-22 make the plane a lot more lighter allowing more weapon carrying, you know, the works..

china is working on it, but that hype, I simply don't buy because of technical reasons, right now, china is argueably behind both the f35 consortium and russia in that order.

it will take time, once those guys come back, they will need a bit of time to integrate that into a goal specific program. it will take time. thankfully, asia is not in mood of a real war for the next 10-15 years. not china. do read behind the propaganda. what it tells you is what you shouldn't believe.

The Chinese are very smart and very mature and hence they know their limitations...... I laid the basics of a stealth design in my post. Engines is the biggest issue where China has problem, even Russia uses AL41 (a derivative of AL31) on it's Pak Fa/T50. Now look at the flying Russian prototype, those engines are not blended, like in F-22 or F117, That's not really stealth. Same with with J-20. Any capable AESA will pick up the engine, and that's all you need for targeting. So Russia and China are both at the same dilemma. F-22 got it's engine design specifically for it. So did F-35. Structures and electronics is where both Russia and China shouldn't have a problem. Last, with Russia's reserves and economy tanking, we will have to see another year how it affects their low RCS aircraft program. That is not the same case with China. They have roaring cash reserves. And due to strict censorship, we don't even know how much they are actually spending.

It will take time, i agree, but i am not being a optimist,in that China and Russia will both be fielding a Stealth fighter, ready for combat and production/export in the next 10 years (the same period in which China's nominal GDP is expected to cross US)
China revealed J-20 in 2010. They did it on purpose to show the world that they can do it. So they know something we don't.
Considering Russia's finances, i would not be surprised that Russia and China collaborated on engine development, since Russia is using the AL31 derivative in their T-50, and China is doing the same in their J-20 along with WS10. J-31 also uses a Russian engine, RD93/WS13.

Now, you do agree that Russia can build a good engine, right?, so if they collaborate with the Chinese, i don't see any reason why the engine issue would not be resolved.

 

[Cat Shannon]

The Chinese are very smart and very mature and hence they know their limitations...... I laid the basics of a stealth design in my post. Engines is the biggest issue where China has problem, even Russia uses AL41 (a derivative of AL31) on it's Pak Fa/T50. Now look at the flying Russian prototype, those engines are not blended, like in F-22 or F117, That's not really stealth. Same with with J-20. Any capable AESA will pick up the engine, and that's all you need for targeting. So Russia and China are both at the same dilemma. F-22 got it's engine design specifically for it. So did F-35. Structures and electronics is where both Russia and China shouldn't have a problem. Last, with Russia's reserves and economy tanking, we will have to see another year how it affects their low RCS aircraft program. That is not the same case with China. They have roaring cash reserves. And due to strict censorship, we don't even know how much they are actually spending.

It will take time, i agree, but i am not being a optimist,in that China and Russia will both be fielding a Stealth fighter, ready for combat and production/export in the next 10 years (the same period in which China's nominal GDP is expected to cross US)
China revealed J-20 in 2010. They did it on purpose to show the world that they can do it. So they know something we don't.
Considering Russia's finances, i would not be surprised that Russia and China collaborated on engine development, since Russia is using the AL31 derivative in their T-50, and China is doing the same in their J-20 along with WS10. J-31 also uses a Russian engine, RD93/WS13.

Now, you do agree that Russia can build a good engine, right?, so if they collaborate with the Chinese, i don't see any reason why the engine issue would not be resolved.

you are buying into the mental invincibility thing. individual brilliance is a hall mark of chinese and indians too. where they miserably fail is to put to a pointed, collective useful working product. like US, UK, France, Israel etc.

Russia won't collaborate with chinese on a 5th gen engine, nope. slim chances, russia will sell engines, not engine tech. plus, pakfa is partnered with india. what difference does it make if it chinese or indians. russia won't give away the tech to china, rather draw up a contract for 200 engines per year. that's how russia makes money too nowadays. any port in a storm.