Actually, it's been pretty evident for quite some time that Pakistan is in contact with the Haqqanis. The charge however was that the ISI was directly involved in the Kabul attacks, & as of yet, there is no evidence for it. So the US loses that as leverage to make Pakistan take action against the Haqqanis. Kayani is having these emergency meetings to come up with a strategy post Kabul attacks just like the US does all the time in the Senate, Congress etc. Doesn't show any complicity.
US & Pakistan Dispute and Tensions over Haqqani group
- Thread starter Respect4Respect01
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Actually, it's been pretty evident for quite some time that Pakistan is in contact with the Haqqanis. The charge however was that the ISI was directly involved in the Kabul attacks, & as of yet, there is no evidence for it. So the US loses that as leverage to make Pakistan take action against the Haqqanis. Kayani is having these emergency meetings to come up with a strategy post Kabul attacks just like the US does all the time in the Senate, Congress etc. Doesn't show any complicity.
Patrician
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According to latest media reports, the proof was presented to Shuja Pasha when he and Mike Mullen met in the US recently.
I hope you do not log in on PDF or internet in general looking to get 'proof' of stuff that intelligence agencies partake in.
If you do, nobody can help you. If you don't, you have to take some of what is coming out in the media at its face value.
BTW, you still have to provide me the 'proof' of your 95-97/5-3% statement yesterday, remember.
Or you accept that you were lying?
VCheng
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I respect your opinion, but I'd rather wait for the Pakistani response first before opining any further myself.
deckingraj
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See even if there are any proofs they will not come in public domain. We all know that US needs Pakistan in WOT...Pakistan needs US for various reason but let's not get into it...
With all that in place when such a strong statement comes out from the top officials in US complemented by so much activities in Pakistan political domain then rest assured proofs or no proofs something unprecedented is cooking...Your PM cancelled his visit to US because he could not get time with Obama. Reports are pouring in that your foreign minister is also being called back...These are clear signs of some unprecedented pressure from US...
That would be too naive a statement to make. What will happen only time will tell but looking at the activities one can logically conclude things are serious. I agree with VCheng that either Pakistan will change the policy or will face the consequences. It is for Pakistan to decide which option is the least expensive.
Rafael
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America's Shambles in Afghanistan!
Brian Cloughley
In the course of research for a paper on US-Pakistan relations I came across a speech given by President Obama in March this year, titled A New Strategy for Afghanistan and Pakistan. It was interesting and quite informative, if misguided and engagingly ingenuous, but the riveting sentence that leapt from the page to my astonished eyes was the declaration that The United States of America did not choose to fight a war in Afghanistan.
Its a bit like being told Hitler didnt cause World War Two, or reading a newspaper headline like Republican Politician Tells Truth or Netanyahu Says Arabs are Human But the Obama assertion was even more bizarre.
Nobody grabbed Americas collective nose and ordered it to send special forces to go to Afghanistans Tora Bora region on 7 October 2001, along with a few dozen British colleagues and a now-rich bunch of raggy baggy Afghan warlords who took millions of CIA dollars in enormous shrink-wrapped bundles and then sat down on their money and did nothing until they sent the cash to Dubai and Geneva, courtesy of the corrupt Kabul Bank. The prime mover in that farce (for such it was, alas, in spite of instances of exceptionally courageous conduct by US and British soldiers; I have had a first-hand description of the operation, but alas cant recount it because of the UKs Official Secrets Act), was the White House. The pathetic Blair of Britain followed in his usual fashion, desperate to have bonding photographs taken alongside the grinning Bush.
It was most certainly the United States of America that chose to invade Afghanistan. And it was the United States that manipulated the United Nations Security Council into a Resolution that seemed to give justification for its unwinnable war.
Two researchers in the British House of Commons have produced a paper titled The Legal Basis for the Invasion of Afghanistan. These analysts are not bleeding-heart liberals; they are intelligent, independent assessors of fact. And they wrote : The military campaign in Afghanistan was not specifically mandated by the UN there was no specific Security Council Resolution authorising the invasion but was widely (although not universally) perceived to be a legitimate form of self-defence under the UN Charter.
The whole thing was a con-job. And dozens of nations were summoned to give it a slimy veneer of quasi-legitimacy. They were all duped or chose to be manoeuvred into committing blood, young lives and treasure to the preposterously named Operation Enduring Freedom.
While writing this piece I went to the website icasualties and saw that yet more young foreign soldiers had been killed. Boys of 19 and 20 are dying in Afghanistan for . . . for what? There are no names of Afghan soldiers, of course, because they dont matter to the West any more than the deaths of Pakistani soldiers matter to Western politicians and generals who demand that Pakistan must do more to combat terrorism. What they mean is that even more soldiers of the Pakistan army and Frontier Corps should sacrifice their lives in order to make things easier for the West to claim that things are improving in its Afghan catastrophe.
Had there been no invasion of Afghanistan by foreign troops, Pakistan would not be in the dreadful situation in which it now finds itself. The fanatics came over the border and found sanctuary amid the lawless, savage, but culturally hospitable Pushtun tribes, which at that very time were being encouraged, with signs of modest success, to join mainstream Pakistan. But the displaced militants began energetic campaigns of propaganda and hatred, and then wreaked havoc by brainwashing home-grown barbarians to develop their own brand of evil mayhem.
Pakistan had no suicide bombings until 1995 when an Egyptian citizen tried to drive a bomb-truck into his embassy in Islamabad. There were no other attacks until 2005, when there were two, by sectarian religious fanatics. But then the foreigners war in Afghanistan really got going, and in 2007 there were over fifty suicide attacks in Pakistan, most of which directly targeted military forces. Since then its been a hideous growth industry. Last year fifty bombings killed over 1100 people, and so far this year the score is 500 dead innocents.
Thank you, Operation Enduring Freedom. And thank you, too, America, for the deaths of over 3,000 soldiers of the Pakistan army and Frontier Corps, because none of them would have been killed were it not for your war in Afghanistan.
Kabuls US-endorsed and fraudulently elected government and its supporting foreign military forces whine about Pakistan being unable to control movement of militants to and from Afghanistan, and certainly it is impossible to do this as the US well knows but wont admit. Across its own fenced and heavily patrolled border with Mexico, which costs an annual 6 billion dollars to maintain and has over 20,000 border agents, pass hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants and thousands of tons of drugs every year.
Ignoring its own backyard cross-border shambles, the US demands that Pakistan commit its soldiers to invade its border Tribal Agency, North Waziristan to fight militants who undoubtedly cross the border to Afghanistan to fight there.
This operation or, rather, long series of operations, because it would take years if mounted, would require some 60,000 soldiers, of whom a thousand would be killed in a two-year campaign were that all the time it would take. There would be at least 3,000 Pakistan army and Frontier Corps soldiers wounded, with hundreds of them maimed for life. There would be thousands of widows, orphans and grieving parents and families.
The aim of the US and its dwindling number of international supporters in Afghanistan is not intended to further stability in Pakistan because a North Waziristan military operation would mightily increase the numbers of suicide and other attacks throughout the country. Their objective is to make it easier for them to claim that their war in Afghanistan is going well, as part of President Obamas New Strategy for Afghanistan and Pakistan. Thousands of civilians would have to flee from their homes in Waziristan. The social and economic cost would be immense throughout the country.
Does Pakistan think this is a price worth paying?
***
The US Chairman of the Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Mullen, stated unequivocally on September 22 that Pakistans government and armed forces use violent extremism as an instrument of policy, and were responsible for the recent attack on the US embassy in Kabul, as well as the 28 June attack against the Inter-Continental Hotel in Kabul and a host of other smaller but effective operations.
Now Mullen isnt the sharpest knife in the box, and has made many fatuous statements ever since he got into a position in which he thought that he could get headlines by making fantastic statements; but even for him, this was a lulu. He has also declared that the government and intelligence service and army of Pakistan have killed, or want to kill, American citizens. He has announced that Pakistan jeopardises not only the prospect of our strategic partnership, but also Pakistans opportunity to be a respected nation with legitimate regional influence.
He has utterly destroyed any tiny lingering trust between America and Pakistan.
Then, amazingly, on the one hand he declares that Pakistan is an international pariah and not to be regarded as reliable on any account, and then says With Pakistans help we have disrupted al-Qaeda and its senior leadership in the border regions and degraded its ability to plan and conduct terror attacks. This is so illogical and off-the-planet as to make one wonder if he had had a bevy of Scotches before he went in to the legislators Committee to which he testified.
And Ill tell Mullen something he doesnt know: Yes, Pakistans intelligence agency does have liaison with extremists. The Directorate of Inter Services Intelligence maintains contact with all sorts of loony, barbaric and evil organisations. Just as does the CIA. It does so, because it knows the people of these groups are ruthless, powerful and extremely dangerous and it wants to have a handle on what they do, and, if possible, engage them in negotiations on behalf of government. Just like the CIA did with, for example, Libyas lunatic and murderous Gadaffi.
Mullens wacky pronouncements have pushed US credibility in Pakistan to an even further low, which might have been expected, given what his boss, defence secretary Panetta, has been spouting.
The US is threatening to invade Pakistan rather than endorse ongoing and extremely delicate negotiations with tribal and other fanatics in its western regions. The intention was made clear when Panetta, referring to Pakistans supposed support of militant operations in Afghanistan, declared that Were not going to allow these types of attacks to go on.
Ive got news for Mullen and Panetta. If they imagine the Pakistan Army will be a pushover like the Iraqis, they have another think coming. If US forces attempt an incursion into Pakistan in North Waziristan or anywhere else they will meet reaction not only from the tribes and militants but from a proud and professional army which will not accept flagrant violation of national sovereignty. I know the Pakistan Army, and I state flatly that man-for-man it will hammer any opponent, no matter if the skies are horizon-filled with US bombers.
Does America think this is a price worth paying?
Brian Cloughley
In the course of research for a paper on US-Pakistan relations I came across a speech given by President Obama in March this year, titled A New Strategy for Afghanistan and Pakistan. It was interesting and quite informative, if misguided and engagingly ingenuous, but the riveting sentence that leapt from the page to my astonished eyes was the declaration that The United States of America did not choose to fight a war in Afghanistan.
Its a bit like being told Hitler didnt cause World War Two, or reading a newspaper headline like Republican Politician Tells Truth or Netanyahu Says Arabs are Human But the Obama assertion was even more bizarre.
Nobody grabbed Americas collective nose and ordered it to send special forces to go to Afghanistans Tora Bora region on 7 October 2001, along with a few dozen British colleagues and a now-rich bunch of raggy baggy Afghan warlords who took millions of CIA dollars in enormous shrink-wrapped bundles and then sat down on their money and did nothing until they sent the cash to Dubai and Geneva, courtesy of the corrupt Kabul Bank. The prime mover in that farce (for such it was, alas, in spite of instances of exceptionally courageous conduct by US and British soldiers; I have had a first-hand description of the operation, but alas cant recount it because of the UKs Official Secrets Act), was the White House. The pathetic Blair of Britain followed in his usual fashion, desperate to have bonding photographs taken alongside the grinning Bush.
It was most certainly the United States of America that chose to invade Afghanistan. And it was the United States that manipulated the United Nations Security Council into a Resolution that seemed to give justification for its unwinnable war.
Two researchers in the British House of Commons have produced a paper titled The Legal Basis for the Invasion of Afghanistan. These analysts are not bleeding-heart liberals; they are intelligent, independent assessors of fact. And they wrote : The military campaign in Afghanistan was not specifically mandated by the UN there was no specific Security Council Resolution authorising the invasion but was widely (although not universally) perceived to be a legitimate form of self-defence under the UN Charter.
The whole thing was a con-job. And dozens of nations were summoned to give it a slimy veneer of quasi-legitimacy. They were all duped or chose to be manoeuvred into committing blood, young lives and treasure to the preposterously named Operation Enduring Freedom.
While writing this piece I went to the website icasualties and saw that yet more young foreign soldiers had been killed. Boys of 19 and 20 are dying in Afghanistan for . . . for what? There are no names of Afghan soldiers, of course, because they dont matter to the West any more than the deaths of Pakistani soldiers matter to Western politicians and generals who demand that Pakistan must do more to combat terrorism. What they mean is that even more soldiers of the Pakistan army and Frontier Corps should sacrifice their lives in order to make things easier for the West to claim that things are improving in its Afghan catastrophe.
Had there been no invasion of Afghanistan by foreign troops, Pakistan would not be in the dreadful situation in which it now finds itself. The fanatics came over the border and found sanctuary amid the lawless, savage, but culturally hospitable Pushtun tribes, which at that very time were being encouraged, with signs of modest success, to join mainstream Pakistan. But the displaced militants began energetic campaigns of propaganda and hatred, and then wreaked havoc by brainwashing home-grown barbarians to develop their own brand of evil mayhem.
Pakistan had no suicide bombings until 1995 when an Egyptian citizen tried to drive a bomb-truck into his embassy in Islamabad. There were no other attacks until 2005, when there were two, by sectarian religious fanatics. But then the foreigners war in Afghanistan really got going, and in 2007 there were over fifty suicide attacks in Pakistan, most of which directly targeted military forces. Since then its been a hideous growth industry. Last year fifty bombings killed over 1100 people, and so far this year the score is 500 dead innocents.
Thank you, Operation Enduring Freedom. And thank you, too, America, for the deaths of over 3,000 soldiers of the Pakistan army and Frontier Corps, because none of them would have been killed were it not for your war in Afghanistan.
Kabuls US-endorsed and fraudulently elected government and its supporting foreign military forces whine about Pakistan being unable to control movement of militants to and from Afghanistan, and certainly it is impossible to do this as the US well knows but wont admit. Across its own fenced and heavily patrolled border with Mexico, which costs an annual 6 billion dollars to maintain and has over 20,000 border agents, pass hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants and thousands of tons of drugs every year.
Ignoring its own backyard cross-border shambles, the US demands that Pakistan commit its soldiers to invade its border Tribal Agency, North Waziristan to fight militants who undoubtedly cross the border to Afghanistan to fight there.
This operation or, rather, long series of operations, because it would take years if mounted, would require some 60,000 soldiers, of whom a thousand would be killed in a two-year campaign were that all the time it would take. There would be at least 3,000 Pakistan army and Frontier Corps soldiers wounded, with hundreds of them maimed for life. There would be thousands of widows, orphans and grieving parents and families.
The aim of the US and its dwindling number of international supporters in Afghanistan is not intended to further stability in Pakistan because a North Waziristan military operation would mightily increase the numbers of suicide and other attacks throughout the country. Their objective is to make it easier for them to claim that their war in Afghanistan is going well, as part of President Obamas New Strategy for Afghanistan and Pakistan. Thousands of civilians would have to flee from their homes in Waziristan. The social and economic cost would be immense throughout the country.
Does Pakistan think this is a price worth paying?
***
The US Chairman of the Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Mullen, stated unequivocally on September 22 that Pakistans government and armed forces use violent extremism as an instrument of policy, and were responsible for the recent attack on the US embassy in Kabul, as well as the 28 June attack against the Inter-Continental Hotel in Kabul and a host of other smaller but effective operations.
Now Mullen isnt the sharpest knife in the box, and has made many fatuous statements ever since he got into a position in which he thought that he could get headlines by making fantastic statements; but even for him, this was a lulu. He has also declared that the government and intelligence service and army of Pakistan have killed, or want to kill, American citizens. He has announced that Pakistan jeopardises not only the prospect of our strategic partnership, but also Pakistans opportunity to be a respected nation with legitimate regional influence.
He has utterly destroyed any tiny lingering trust between America and Pakistan.
Then, amazingly, on the one hand he declares that Pakistan is an international pariah and not to be regarded as reliable on any account, and then says With Pakistans help we have disrupted al-Qaeda and its senior leadership in the border regions and degraded its ability to plan and conduct terror attacks. This is so illogical and off-the-planet as to make one wonder if he had had a bevy of Scotches before he went in to the legislators Committee to which he testified.
And Ill tell Mullen something he doesnt know: Yes, Pakistans intelligence agency does have liaison with extremists. The Directorate of Inter Services Intelligence maintains contact with all sorts of loony, barbaric and evil organisations. Just as does the CIA. It does so, because it knows the people of these groups are ruthless, powerful and extremely dangerous and it wants to have a handle on what they do, and, if possible, engage them in negotiations on behalf of government. Just like the CIA did with, for example, Libyas lunatic and murderous Gadaffi.
Mullens wacky pronouncements have pushed US credibility in Pakistan to an even further low, which might have been expected, given what his boss, defence secretary Panetta, has been spouting.
The US is threatening to invade Pakistan rather than endorse ongoing and extremely delicate negotiations with tribal and other fanatics in its western regions. The intention was made clear when Panetta, referring to Pakistans supposed support of militant operations in Afghanistan, declared that Were not going to allow these types of attacks to go on.
Ive got news for Mullen and Panetta. If they imagine the Pakistan Army will be a pushover like the Iraqis, they have another think coming. If US forces attempt an incursion into Pakistan in North Waziristan or anywhere else they will meet reaction not only from the tribes and militants but from a proud and professional army which will not accept flagrant violation of national sovereignty. I know the Pakistan Army, and I state flatly that man-for-man it will hammer any opponent, no matter if the skies are horizon-filled with US bombers.
Does America think this is a price worth paying?
pak-marine
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Hina Rabbani Khar called back from US visit
Published: September 25, 2011
ISLAMABAD: As tension prevails between the United States and Pakistan, Prime Minister Syed Yousaf Raza Gilani summoned Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar back to Islamabad on Sunday for the All Parties Conference (APC).
Khar’s presence is said to be vital during the APC as she was one of the few members of the civilian leadership to have been directly approached by US officials regarding allegations of Pakistan running a proxy war in Afghanistan via the Haqqani network.
According to the Pakistan embassy in the United States, Khar will be cutting her trip short and likely flying back to Pakistan tonight. She will meet both Gilani and President Zardari on arrival, say sources.
Gilani on Sunday contacted leaders of various political parties to develop a consensus over the US allegations against Pakistani security institutions via the APC.
(Read more: Pakistan not responsible for security of US forces, says PM)
Sources said that the government has decided to take all the political parties on board before drafting a strategy over the allegations by the US that Pakistan was complicit with the Haqqani network responsible for last week’s attack on the US embassy and a Nato headquarters in Kabul.
Gilani contacted Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N) chief Mian Nawaz Sharif, Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) chief Altaf Hussain and Awami National Party (ANP) chief Asfandayar Wali .
(Read: US-Pak matters: Gilani takes all politicians on board)
On Sunday, Pakistan’s military leadership also unanimously rejected the allegations leveled against Pakistani security institutions by the United States.
The six hour long emergency Corps Commanders meeting chaired by Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani concluded in Rawalpindi on Sunday. Sources said no formal declaration of the meeting will be issued.
Chairman joint chiefs of staff committee (CJCSC) General Khalid Shamim Wynne expressed concern over the recent statements made by the US, and said that Pak-US relations need to be improved
---------- Post added at 08:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:08 PM ----------
its getting tensed FM called back , Gilani calling all politicians ... what cooking ?
Published: September 25, 2011
ISLAMABAD: As tension prevails between the United States and Pakistan, Prime Minister Syed Yousaf Raza Gilani summoned Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar back to Islamabad on Sunday for the All Parties Conference (APC).
Khar’s presence is said to be vital during the APC as she was one of the few members of the civilian leadership to have been directly approached by US officials regarding allegations of Pakistan running a proxy war in Afghanistan via the Haqqani network.
According to the Pakistan embassy in the United States, Khar will be cutting her trip short and likely flying back to Pakistan tonight. She will meet both Gilani and President Zardari on arrival, say sources.
Gilani on Sunday contacted leaders of various political parties to develop a consensus over the US allegations against Pakistani security institutions via the APC.
(Read more: Pakistan not responsible for security of US forces, says PM)
Sources said that the government has decided to take all the political parties on board before drafting a strategy over the allegations by the US that Pakistan was complicit with the Haqqani network responsible for last week’s attack on the US embassy and a Nato headquarters in Kabul.
Gilani contacted Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N) chief Mian Nawaz Sharif, Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) chief Altaf Hussain and Awami National Party (ANP) chief Asfandayar Wali .
(Read: US-Pak matters: Gilani takes all politicians on board)
On Sunday, Pakistan’s military leadership also unanimously rejected the allegations leveled against Pakistani security institutions by the United States.
The six hour long emergency Corps Commanders meeting chaired by Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani concluded in Rawalpindi on Sunday. Sources said no formal declaration of the meeting will be issued.
Chairman joint chiefs of staff committee (CJCSC) General Khalid Shamim Wynne expressed concern over the recent statements made by the US, and said that Pak-US relations need to be improved
---------- Post added at 08:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:08 PM ----------
its getting tensed FM called back , Gilani calling all politicians ... what cooking ?
strong statement from the top, right? here is another strong statement that came from as high atop as you'd get in american politcal system. January 2011, President of the United States Mr. Obama spoke on Raymond Davis case and declared him a diplomat who must be granted diplomatic immunity. You know what followed in the days latter of Mr. Obama's statement? RD was proved to be a CIA contractor who was in Pakistasn illegally and no diplomat.
So we know how "truthful" the american officials can get when things aren't going their way. Their lies aren't hidden from the world as much as some people would prefer to ignore them. And of course their biggest lie of WMD in Iraq which is now pinned on Iraqis for deceiving the Americans into believing they had WMD - dont wanna go off-topic here on this-
Their previous lies show how trustworthy the word is that come out of the mouths of highest American officials when their interest is involved. They can go to extreme ends to make it appear to be truthful. Majority of the world sees it as is, too. However, you guys being a confrontational neighbor will choose to believe any negative word which maligns Pakistan.
I did, check out the posts after that, or check President Camacho.
all speculation, no proof, no evidence. just believing the word of mullen on this 'cuz after all it's coming from the highest rank of the american forces, so it must have some truth to it, right. just like how Obama lied and declared RD a diplomat, he turned out be a CIA contractor.
Patrician
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There's no post by either you or any other poster that shows (gives a link i.e.) a Pakistani official claiming that 95-97% of those killed in drone strikes have been terrorists.
Please stop lying.
I've given detailed statistics from credible local agencies & media outlets, it doesn't matter what a Pakistani official says.
Patrician
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It does, for a change.
Pakistani national assembly has passed a resolution saying a majority of those killed in drone strikes are innocent civilians.
Popular Pakistani politician Imran Khan regularly claims that drones mostly kill civilians. He has even held a very successful dharna on the same issue.
Now either you are lying or the members of your national assembly and Imran Khan are lying.
Which one is it?
Excellent read. I was about to post it, but thank you for posting.
VCheng
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You are entitled to your opinion, just as I am to mine. We will see what is correct soon enough.
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