US objects to China-Pakistan nuclear deal

[prototype]

Yet again the Deal with Iran shows how much grave the Power shortage problem is.During the strategik dialogue US did mentioned to help Pakistan deal with its power shortage problems. Further the Pakistan's cooperation in WOT and the impact of this War onto people of Pakistan cannot be sidelined.In the Afghan matrix and the future engagement of CARs by US Pakistan bears utmost importance for US. It cannot afford to loos Pakistan on that front as they already are planning to withdraw from Afghanistan in the coming years .
Add to this the Chinese strategic and Economic interest in going ahead with this deal.

u.s promised to help u over coming ur power shortage by providing u thermal power,but u never ever wanted it,u just wanted nuclear

 

[Malik Usman]

well dear you don't got my meaning

USA is confused how they carry relation with Pakistan in future

USA is thinking few factors

1 nuke power of Pakistan is nuke power is really safe
2 Taliban is getting closer day by day to Pakistan and they can get the power in future
3 Pakistan is getting fail in economy
4 Pakistan is not able to control extremist group inside Pakistan

and the most import china Pakistan relation


so i called usa is still confused about realtion

Do you really think that a country which can make Nukes and she dont' know how to safe them is it not a joke of the century. As for Taliban you guys realy don't have information, its not Afghanistan... its Pakistan and in Pakistan Taliban's are just less than 2% of whole population out of them mostly their command is killed by PakArmy.....

Even if i agree with you that Taliban will get Nukes, how they will blow them, just blowing air from mouth. Nukes are protected by Codes and to make Nukes you need 12 different technologies and in each technology you need a Person that must have Phd in that field.
Even if you will throw the Nuke from Plan or run the truck over it, it will now blow unless you have codes to activate it....
Its not India where top nuke scientists found dead on bank of river and where head of RAW was found the spy of American's who run with all documents to US and its not US where they found a plan of US flying with Nukes loaded on it and nobody was know......

If we can make Nukes we know how to protect them.....
So please neveragain make this propoganda that our Nukes can be stolen......

 

[TechLahore]

Come on tech for now US has the greater say in NSG..Austrlia and Japan will support them will full heart on this matter..The net result will most probably that NSG will oppose this move..it was US ,who single handedly made sure that NSG pass the waiver to India..dont underestimate the US now..they have some cards under the sleeves..

You are missing the point. Ok. The US will bring this up in the NSG and a few countries may support the US view. Then what? As several articles on this subject indicate, debate or opposition within the NSG cannot stop the transaction. And that is my point. If the US makes a big fuss about trying to stop something that ultimately isn't stopped, then the US looks weak and powerless.

I hope I have clarified my position now.

 

[TechLahore]

US is doing for south Asia benefit. Pakistan is going through one of it's worse time and all it could think of is "Nuclear deal" and why?? Just because India got one.

Pakistan needs energy more than anything else. These new reactors provide clean, renewable & cheap electricity. We are building numerous dams, investing in solar and wind farms, taking short term measures to bring up fossil fuel powered rental power plants, while in parallel, developing Thar coal reserves and installing units that can use this abundant source of coal to generate power.

Despite all these simultaneous projects, we are still a nation hungry from more electricity due to our population growth rate, which stands at about 1.6%/year (Adding more people than the population of New Zealand in less than 2 years) and the upward mobility of our masses which is increasing per capita energy consumption.

In the future, as we face a water shortage - along with much of the rest of the world - we will need electricity for desalination, extracting water from deeper wells and for powering more efficient water distribution infrastructure in our agricultural sector. We have a thoroughly legitimate claim to energy technology and nuclear power.

These reactors are essential for Pakistan, and any external interference in these projects is unwelcome, illogical and devoid of legitimacy.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

And i am in agreement with your power shortage problem...I in fact support Pakistani cause for the nuke deal even knowing that there is a mad rush to increase the number of nukes which has a destination printed on them ..guess what - INDIA....

Nuke deal will help in much needed powere generation and is good for job creations and bringing in prosperity...So nothing wrong with it...



Ans they should...After all Pakistan have bleeded a lot in WOT...



Here you are plane wrong...As said they have snubbed you before when you approached them directly....They have made it public that they will oppose nuke deal b/w China and Pak and yet if you guys want to believe something different then i can't help.....Its ironical than you showed me how much US needs Pakistan howeever fail to see the opposite side where Pakistan need US...So its all give and take and any change on status quo would be based on give and take of equal magnitude...don't you think so???



I am sorry that means nothing....China is yet to arrive on a global scenario where she can force other members to side with her.....I know she is gaining muscle but it is limited and at present the deal is pretty much on US mercy as far as NSG waiver is concerned....its an another topic if China portrays it as a bilateral agreement which is not binding to NSG commitments(something that China is persuing knowing very well that US will not allow NSG waiver)...In the end meeting is in a weektime...lets wait and watch

I personally think even if US does blocks it through NSG will China stop going ahead with it i dough it.And i guess the US wont jeopardize the deal as they got a huge stake in the reagion. They might use it for trade off with China but eventually they would let it go.

 

[deckingraj]

I personally think even if US does blocks it through NSG will China stop going ahead with it i dough it.And i guess the US wont jeopardize the deal as they got a huge stake in the reagion. They might use it for trade off with China but eventually they would let it go.

Umm may be true...However my best wishes are with Pakistan....We have enough nukes to annihilate each other so if this deal ends up helping masses in Pakistan then why not....

 

[DesiGuy]

The were plans that Pakistan was actively working on, which is illustrated by the Chasma plants that are being constructed and proposed.

Since it isn't 'bad' I fail to see what it 'shows' about GoP policies.

What it shows is that Pakistan did not believe that it would be able to convince the US to agree to an NSG exemption, especially since the AQ Khan affair came to light at that time.

Some country or the other is always going to be the 'first' to get an exemption or any other issue - since there are only 3 countries that are not NPT signatories, it is rather absurd to argue that just because one country got the deal, the others are copy cats and 'it shows something about their policies'.

indeed, not saying that copycat is bad, in fact i think all nations do that to some extent.
However, in this case, i am saying Pakistan raised nuclear deal issue DUE to India, otherwise they would have never raised anything even with china. the only thing i can make out of this, is that Pakistan government consider more important it's problems with India THAN it's benefit of it's own people, which again no surprises me.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

State Department spokesman Gordon DuGuid said the U.S. government "has reiterated to the Chinese government that the United States expects Beijing to cooperate with Pakistan in ways consistent with Chinese nonproliferation obligations."

BTW does US fears proliferation from Pakistan. Pakistan already has reactors which generate weapons grade Plutonium. India while being a non signatory of NPT can hev it then why not Pakistan when it needs it the most.

 

[foxbat]

If we were to talk about past deeds then Germany and Japan should not have been allowed to exist after World War 2 and Pakistan has not done something like that.

Incorrect comparison.

Japan and Germany gave up(were forced to) their military ambitions after being defeated in the WWII. For all practical purposes, 2 new countries emerged in their place.

The world today is still not convinced (may be incorrectly but that does not matter) that Pakistan / some of its establishment has given up its past policies of supporting terrorism for political gains in its neighborhood.

And there in lies the difference

 

[Nahraf]

Pakistan is facing minimum of 4,500 MW power shortage right now in 5 years it would be even higher. We have other nuclear installations to obtain nuclear weapons materials. We need these nuclear power plants for electricity. They will be built under IAEC supervision.

 

[DesiGuy]

@ TechLahore


Indeed, Pakistan needs these reactors, no doubt. Read my post#63.

I think Safety comes first before building any reactors or getting hands on nuclear deal. if a place not safe, than what's the benefit of building reactor there.

 

[Ras]

You are missing the point. Ok. The US will bring this up in the NSG and a few countries may support the US view. Then what? As several articles on this subject indicate, debate or opposition within the NSG cannot stop the transaction. And that is my point. If the US makes a big fuss about trying to stop something that ultimately isn't stopped, then the US looks weak and powerless.

I hope I have clarified my position now.

Any nuclear sale to a non-NPT member has to be cleared by consensus in the NSG.So if the US decides that they don't want to approve the deal then it is dead.Actually any member nation can do it as every nation has to agree.Of course China can say screw it all and do as she wishes but then that would be against what she agreed to when she joined the NSG.I doubt that will happen.

As for the deal itself..if it is any consolation to the Pakistani members the current US administration would never ever has approved the earlier US-India deal.Nuclear non-proliferation is the mantra of the leftists running the US govt today.
What can you say stupidity at it's best.What is the benefit in denying nuclear power generation to a country with nuclear weapons anyway?

 

[ambidex]

Pakistan needs energy more than anything else. These new reactors provide clean, renewable & cheap electricity. We are building numerous dams, investing in solar and wind farms, taking short term measures to bring up fossil fuel powered rental power plants, while in parallel, developing Thar coal reserves and installing units that can use this abundant source of coal to generate power.

Despite all these simultaneous projects, we are still a nation hungry from more electricity due to our population growth rate, which stands at about 1.6%/year (Adding more people than the population of New Zealand in less than 2 years) and the upward mobility of our masses which is increasing per capita energy consumption.

In the future, as we face a water shortage - along with much of the rest of the world - we will need electricity for desalination, extracting water from deeper wells and for powering more efficient water distribution infrastructure in our agricultural sector. We have a thoroughly legitimate claim to energy technology and nuclear power.

These reactors are essential for Pakistan, and any external interference in these projects is unwelcome, illogical and devoid of legitimacy.

America is objecting on this deal is not because China be able to earn some bucks they will not, but how China be able to place IAEA safeguards NTP checks and regulations on Pakistan. The legitimacy and recognition Pakistan seeking with any nuclear deal like India is not authentic until unless IAEA/NSG not giving waiver to Pakistan (lobbied by China).

This has become an issue of prestige for Pakistan since India was able convince USA for that nuclear deal.
Few months back i saw an old Indo-pak debate on a channel where ex pak general was out crying like a nipper for Indo-US nuclear deal. Interestingly he was saying in urdu (envy expression) that now Indian can make as many nukes she can, what to us. The video was a good observation for anyone to see how Pakistan has gone burnt for that deal and what they think primarily about such nuclear deals.

Hypocrisy of China is now evident who was hell bent on sabotaging our deal when all the stats were in favour of India who further unilateral declared not to test nuclear bombs again and convinced USA parliament for non proliferation.

What Pakistan has done so far convincing world is nothing but Dodgy statements.

Why it should be a big no no no..

1. Any military think tank even with half a brain can see how Pakistan/is has lost its conventional edge over India and now increasing its nuclear stock pile and boasting idiotically(from Generals, ministers to netizens) about its nuclear bomb.
2. Any military expert can tell how China has done horizontal and parallel proliferation running many extra miles for Pakistan with no genuine explanation.
3.How AQ Khan has made many pissed off in west is well documented.
4. Why Pakistan started its nuclear program is another reason for the same which now has found another excuse of clean energy.
5.Recently i read a thread title here with a laughing cartoon on it that Pakistan has more than 100 Nukes. So if two reactors can yield 100 nuke then 3 more will be able to yield 125 more for a nation who is at the verge of war with its heavy weight conventional rival India.
6.Pakistan's offencive posture towards 1/7 of the humanity living in India, lack of tactical nukes but WMD to deter population only, poor read of how many nukes they need and the numbers are growing.
7.Furthermore a challenge is bestowed upon Pakistanis to prove that nuclear energy investments are only feasible salvation to Power shortage in Pakistan. Prove it with stats or keep out this authoritarian blah blah from the thread.

Let me help, What are Pakistan's carbon emissions per capita?. Only ~3% of nuclear energy is generated in Pakistan by nuclear reactors rest is generated by other conventional means. So where is the balance? How much more energy will be generated and how many bombs will be made in next 25 years by nuclear resources in Pakistan is the question of the day.

 

[TechLahore]

^^ 1GW being added by these two plants alone will bring nuclear energy (existing operational reactors + new ones) to about 7-8% of total production. Given the massive advantages of nuclear energy, that's not bad. And we're not going to stop with these two, so it stands to reason that overall percentages will continue to go up in future.

As to whether the US can stop this deal, let's just wait and see. My feeling is that they will be utterly powerless to do anything at all to stop this transaction from moving forward. Pakistan is going to continue to invest in Nuclear energy and China will continue working with it. That has been the pattern thus far, it is also reflected in the situation on the ground, and is the announced intent of both governments for the future. It happened even when Pakistan was setting up the Khushab reactors - purely for weapons purposes - and when Pakistan was sanctioned pre 9/11. So it will most certainly continue in the current climate. Given history and the body of evidence, I think it is for the naysayers to prove that things will go off course...

DesiGuy: No more responses to you because your ridiculous line of reasoning "ooo, but is it safe?" is nothing more than a pathetic attempt to troll. I was going to spend time pointing out the fact that there have been massive lapses in the nuclear security of other states; an Indian nuclear scientist was abducted or went missing for days - God knows what info was extracted from him - and he was later found dead. There have been several instances of smuggling of radioactive materials in India. There are instances of loss of control of nukes in the US too, as well as proliferation from the US to Israel, and between South Africa and Israel. In fact the only proven case of proliferation leading to the creation of Nuclear weapons involves SA and Israel... but that is all in vain in response to a troll.

 

[foxbat]

As per my understanding, NSG can not stop the deal. However if consensus is not obtained in the NSG meeting, then other NSG members will not be able to supply pakistan with the fuel and technology around Nuclear technology. If China says screw it all and still goes ahead, the only downside for Pakistan will be the single nation dependence on China, which anyway exists today for Pakistan in a lot of other areas like Defence, Infrastructure etc.

It will be interesting to see how this goes down. From an India perspective, I really wouldnt care too much about this.

However when India US deal was being finalized, there were a lot of talks here about security of civilian nuclear facilities and so on. Wonder how it will apply to this arrangement