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US (CIA) removed Imran Khan govt: Former British Ambassador

Saaen to Saaen, Saeen ka kutta bhi Saeen.

Pehle CIA/WH the, ab state dept bhi khud hi regime changes krne lg gya he?

@Bleek


Don't you know? USA is innocent until proven guilty. (Even then the burden of proof is impossibly high). For the rest of the world, the opposite is true.
Fun fact, did you know that during the cold War the CIA ran operations without the knowledge or approval of the white house? That legacy of US governmental departments not cooperating with the white house isn't new.

When Trump ordered the withdrawal of troops from Syria, the Pentagon used a loophole to officially declare a complete withdrawal while still keeping a large presence of troops there.
 
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IMO we gotta move past IK and PTI.

Let's say his government wasn't ousted. Heck, let's say he got re-elected. Even in that scenario, all of the underlying problems plaguing Pakistan would've continued to exist. The rot would've lingered, only to flare up another (albeit later) day. But we would've gotten to this point regardless.

What we're doing now by constantly vocalizing for IK/PTI is that we're arguing for marginally better "would have been" scenarios. We need to expand our vision and now work for fundamental changes.

Ultimately, IK had to play by rules in a game that didn't benefit Pakistanis. The moment he apparently broke those rules, he got kicked out. So, instead of complaining about how the game went, we should focus on stopping that actual game. If IK can buckle the first time (to rule initially), he'll do it again and waste our time.

We have a web made up of generals, politicians, judges, and top bureaucrats (plus their layers of underlings) who've sucked Pakistan dry. They've run a system that will never let any real change take root. Like, they're so deeht they won't even listen to the IMF.

Now, we have to critically examine what it'll take to dismantle this web once and for all. Even if people hit the streets Arab Spring style, that in itself doesn't result in real change. Real change happens when the "energy" is linked to a vision and credible leadership to succeed the old guard at every level, be it military, judiciary, political, or bureaucracy. From the American Revolution to the French to the Prussians to the Soviets to Madinah had this structural changeover.

Unfortunately in Pakistan, we don't have a true opposing leadership that is both equipped and recognized to supplant the current establishment. Basically, we've got too many sides who want to talk about the problem and complain, but too few who are either willing or able to do anything.
 
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The history of regime change by Americans is full of documented facts in which military generals have been collaborator of choice.

Uh, which regime change by CIA has been a favour upon the victim gaining him immense support and popularity and face saving guaranteeing he wins the next election 😂😂

It’s hilarious that Pakistanis think CIA is so stupid that they would pull level 99999 idiotic stupid crap we saw VONC last year, IK couldn’t have asked for a better thing than that. Bruh, CIA found where we were hiding Osama Bin Laden, and then flew him away while our country was sleeping 😂😂

If CIA wanted regime change, IK would’ve died from cocaine overdose or something like that 😂😂 Something believable and something that will make people hate the victim.

But then self projection is strong in Pakistanis, they think CIA is amateur hour
 
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Not quite the smoking gun, but I would be VERY interested in the books that come out 20/30 years from now relating to Pakistan.
 
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Be it State Department or CIA, there is one factor common in this regime change - the local collaborator. The history of regime change by Americans is full of documented facts in which military generals have been collaborator of choice. The second choice is religious entities or corrupt politicians. But the path is always created by military generals.

We have seen enough of evidence even in history of Pakistan where these two main collaborators have facilitated instability in the country.

Dont believe me? Read this book. American regime change operations start from 1893 and continue to this day.

I'm not gonna comment on Pakisran in particular, not yet anyway as it's not the right time.

However, it is true that local collaborators are almost always necessary for regime changes. In many cases fake "governments in exile" were created as justification for launching coups, invasions, regime changes. Two famous examples of this are 1) Iran's Shah who was brought back into power by the British and the CIA after his initial removal. 2) an attempt by the Soviets to invade Finland by declaring the government illegitimate and creating their own "government in exile".

This has always been a loophole exploited by imperial powers to justify themselves in the international community to decrease the incoming backlash.

Not quite the smoking gun, but I would be VERY interested in the books that come out 20/30 years from now relating to Pakistan.
Already have my money saved up for the inevitable pre-order deluxe editions with 200 extra pages of hardcore geopolitics that come with free stem cells to gain a few more years of life and cool LED anti-UV ray goggle-gas masks combo to fight off the pollution and nuclear radiation.
 
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Did I say that at all? Of course he is entitled to give his opinion, but it is up to the intellect of the reader to accord it its significance.

(And just how you are able to compare his resources with mine over the InterWebz is beyond me. :D)

(And what is even more remarkable is that you can predict what the CIA will do in a few years. Impressive indeed! :lol: )
Well your comment was clearly a personal jab, implying that he's merely a low-life social media campaigner married to a poor uzbek, therefore his opinion holds no weight whatsoever.

Give the man a little more deserving credit, he is an ex- ambassador of a Super Power with probably more education and experience working with internal agencies than most of the armchairs here.

Not quite the smoking gun, but I would be VERY interested in the books that come out 20/30 years from now relating to Pakistan.
I'm sure those books will mention pakistani dimwit generals by name who sold the country for pennies.
 
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Well your comment was clearly a personal jab, implying that

Absolutely not. I did not imply anything other than what I said clearly. What you misunderstood is not my problem, but yours, showing a low-life and poor mentality, to be sure.

Not quite the smoking gun, but I would be VERY interested in the books that come out 20/30 years from now relating to Pakistan.

I would be interested too, if I am around then. But, like with any historical accounts, two things must be kept in mind.

The first is that history is only the victor's version of events.

The second is that retrospectoscopic vision is always 20/20, and one must not judge past events with the norms, knowledge and wisdom of a later time period, something that is very difficult to do fairly.

Basically, we've got too many sides who want to talk about the problem and complain, but too few who are either willing or able to do anything.

Basically, that is why any substantive changes are unlikely to be forthcoming anytime soon.
 
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Not according to @VCheng This man claims that anything "anti-American" vis a vis Pakistan is by default a lie.
They all talk. They have leakage like we do. Yes, the Americans set the professional standards, but it doesn’t mean there’s scandals and leakage here and there.
 
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Fun fact, did you know that during the cold War the CIA ran operations without the knowledge or approval of the white house? That legacy of US governmental departments not cooperating with the white house isn't new.

When Trump ordered the withdrawal of troops from Syria, the Pentagon used a loophole to officially declare a complete withdrawal while still keeping a large presence of troops there.
CIA was caught spying on US Senate intelligence committee
 
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IMO we gotta move past IK and PTI.

Let's say his government wasn't ousted. Heck, let's say he got re-elected. Even in that scenario, all of the underlying problems plaguing Pakistan would've continued to exist. The rot would've lingered, only to flare up another (albeit later) day. But we would've gotten to this point regardless.

What we're doing now by constantly vocalizing for IK/PTI is that we're arguing for marginally better "would have been" scenarios. We need to expand our vision and now work for fundamental changes.

Ultimately, IK had to play by rules in a game that didn't benefit Pakistanis. The moment he apparently broke those rules, he got kicked out. So, instead of complaining about how the game went, we should focus on stopping that actual game. If IK can buckle the first time (to rule initially), he'll do it again and waste our time.

We have a web made up of generals, politicians, judges, and top bureaucrats (plus their layers of underlings) who've sucked Pakistan dry. They've run a system that will never let any real change take root. Like, they're so deeht they won't even listen to the IMF.

Now, we have to critically examine what it'll take to dismantle this web once and for all. Even if people hit the streets Arab Spring style, that in itself doesn't result in real change. Real change happens when the "energy" is linked to a vision and credible leadership to succeed the old guard at every level, be it military, judiciary, political, or bureaucracy. From the American Revolution to the French to the Prussians to the Soviets to Madinah had this structural changeover.

Unfortunately in Pakistan, we don't have a true opposing leadership that is both equipped and recognized to supplant the current establishment. Basically, we've got too many sides who want to talk about the problem and complain, but too few who are either willing or able to do anything.
Pakistan's literal dismemberment could not dismantle this web and has only strengthened it at the cost of Pakistanis. Pakistan's future is nothing more than what you see with failed central african states, with warlords at helm.
 
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I'm not gonna comment on Pakisran in particular, not yet anyway as it's not the right time.

However, it is true that local collaborators are almost always necessary for regime changes. In many cases fake "governments in exile" were created as justification for launching coups, invasions, regime changes. Two famous examples of this are 1) Iran's Shah who was brought back into power by the British and the CIA after his initial removal. 2) an attempt by the Soviets to invade Finland by declaring the government illegitimate and creating their own "government in exile".

This has always been a loophole exploited by imperial powers to justify themselves in the international community to decrease the incoming backlash.


Already have my money saved up for the inevitable pre-order deluxe editions with 200 extra pages of hardcore geopolitics that come with free stem cells to gain a few more years of life and cool LED anti-UV ray goggle-gas masks combo to fight off the pollution and nuclear radiation.

Please don't take me the wrong way.
I watched a lot of speeches from Adolf Hitler and read his book. One grievance he's had was in regards to these governments in exile, people who we've never heard or seen before who are almost immediately thrust on us to accept as our legitimate leaders.
 
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Please don't take me the wrong way.
I watched a lot of speeches from Adolf Hitler and read his book. One grievance he's had was in regards to these governments in exile, people who we've never heard or seen before who are almost immediately thrust on us to accept as our legitimate leaders.
Which is funny, because he played the same games as other imperial powers. He supported opposition groups across the globe so they could take power and in turn supply the Reich with fresh troops and resources.
 
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Which is funny, because he played the same games as other imperial powers. He supported opposition groups across the globe so they could take power and in turn supply the Reich with fresh troops and resources.

That is true as well. But also it was to limit London's hold as well, as the majority of exile governments were in London.

I guess you can't hate the game but only the players.
 
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