Upgrade of Pakistans Bell AH-1F Cobra helicopters

[HAIDER]

Washington, USA - The statement by the US joint chiefs of staff Admiral Mike Mullen
(WAPA) - The United States is committed to supporting the upgrade of Pakistan’s Bell AH-1F Cobra helicopters but the deal is being slowed down by complications associated with the Pentagons’ foreign military sales says the chairman of the US joint chiefs of staff Admiral Mike Mullen.

Mr Mullen says that while Pakistan has made public criticisms of US preparedness to assist with strengthening its counter insurgency capabilities for use in its frontier provinces with Afghanistan, there is no intention to slow down hardware deliveries.

Pakistan lodged an FMS (Full Management Systems) application in September 2008 for the refurbishment and upgrade of eight AH-1F aircraft. The deal is forecast by the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency to cost up to 115 million dollars.

The proposed package would also include warranties, system integration, spare and repairs parts, support equipment, personnel training and training equipment, technical publications and contractor engineering and logistics support services.

The US has been working with the Pakistani military since 2004 to redevelop its army aviation units, with this including the sale of 26 Bell 412 helicopters and the modernisation of existing AH-1F aircraft. Pakistan introduced 20 AH-1s into service in 1985. (Avionews)
(050) 090506180539-1104020 (World Aeronautical Press Agency - 2009-05-06 06:05 pm)
Avionews

 

[blain2]

The biggest problem is that Cobra is no longer in production. Its being shoved down Pakistan's throat because Apache is not being allowed to be sold to Pakistan. This whole effort would be much more effective if Pakistan had Apaches with their higher resolution sights and range of their Hellfires against the Taliban.

 

[A1Kaid]

Great news, the modernization of our Army aviation particularly AH-1F cobra helos will be a great improvement. Improving our counter-insurgency capabilities, and our capability to provide ground troops protection.

Nice to see the US offering a good deal here.

"Pakistan lodged an FMS (Full Management Systems) application in September 2008 for the refurbishment and upgrade of eight AH-1F aircraft. The deal is forecast by the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency to cost up to 115 million dollars.

The proposed package would also include warranties, system integration, spare and repairs parts, support equipment, personnel training and training equipment, technical publications and contractor engineering and logistics support services."

Though I prefer Pakistan acquiring the Apache helicopter, if we truly seek modernization of our army aviation...

 

[BoggedDown]

I am damn sick and tried of PA begging cobras/apaches from USA beside constant refusal or dilly dally from USA. This has been the single most crippling deficiency for PA to pursue militants in FATA and swat successfully. These discussions are going on since Pakistan joined WOT but in vain, USA does not want to give apaches to Pakistan and cobras are already out of product and difficult to maintain. Why can not PA look for other alternatives like from european Tiger / Augusta 129 or Chinese variants. Is there any shame left in PA high ups for constanat refusals. from USA. This is really mind boggling....

 

[HAIDER]

In next few years it will be hell to maintained these helos,only refurb parts or non. As far as integration of new system, I think Bell is not integrating any thing in these helo anymore. Pakistan need huge number of attack helos, if US refuse then go to Russian ones. But problem its free of cost. Plus it comes like this..
View attachment d0c56c9766a19b1992611903f65a60fc.jpg
Well,its time for Pak to look for joint venture, either with Turkey or China. But Pak pilots has years of trust on US machinery. It will take time to adopt anything else.

 

[Contrarian]

The biggest problem is that Cobra is no longer in production. Its being shoved down Pakistan's throat because Apache is not being allowed to be sold to Pakistan. This whole effort would be much more effective if Pakistan had Apaches with their higher resolution sights and range of their Hellfires against the Taliban.

Does PA need these choppers for fighting insurgents or the armoured columns of tanks?

Greater resolution or greater range is not really needed against an insurgent force, especially as your pounding them with heavy guns already.

 

[ejaz007]

I think we need to look at non US attack helicopters.

 

[XYON]

I think that Pakistan should go for the Mi-35 HIND (Night Attack) Helicopters from Russia.

Mi-35PN

Not only these helicopters are very effective in hot and high conditions (experience from Afghanistan during USSR days) but they also have a certain horror affinity to their appearance which can very well douse the spirit of the most stoutest of battle hardened criminal like the Uzbeks, Tajiks and other nationalities in the Taliban folds. This can be done by convincing the Russian President Medeyev and the PM Putin that this war on terror against the Taliban is in their interest too since most of the foreign fighters are coming from ex-USSR states in Central Asia.

 

[Blackpearl]

Does PA need these choppers for fighting insurgents or the armoured columns of tanks?

Greater resolution or greater range is not really needed against an insurgent force, especially as your pounding them with heavy guns already.

Cobra helicopter as a medium anti tank plateform, bridge the gap between a light recconisance/attack helo like Kiowa, and heavy anti tank helo like Appache, when seen from US Army perspective. While out of service from US Army, Cobra most optimally serves Pak Army, for anti tank role. I think, when Army is selecting any new attack helicopter, the main concern will still remain on doctrine oriented to Threat from East. The insurgency is here today, but will nit be tomorrow, however, the basic consideration will remain to counter any enemy armour column.

 

[blain2]

Does PA need these choppers for fighting insurgents or the armoured columns of tanks?

Greater resolution or greater range is not really needed against an insurgent force, especially as your pounding them with heavy guns already.

Malay,

Notwithstanding Indian concerns, which are misplaced, the higher the resolution and greater range the better the ability of the PA to avoid collateral damage and conduct more pinpoint strikes. The FLIR/Longbow on the Apache provides exceptional SA on the ground.

In terms of armoured columns, Cobras are still a threat with RF guided TOWs instead of wired TOWs. Given any induction of Apache in the PA, the numbers would be too small to make a difference in the Indo-Pak scenario.

 

[Arsalan]

well the upgrades of cobras are good for the time being but ultimately we will have to replace them in about 5 yeasr time!

apache is not an option,

for me the turkist T129 a version of french mastung A129 is the best option!
the south african Denel AH-2 Rooivalk is also good!!

we must try not to relay on US! it is lesson from the past!!
the turkish helo is a best option, what do you guys think??

 

[HAIDER]

So, its matter of time Pak will receive few dozen Cobra, but process sounds little slow. here is the link.

Earlier on Wednesday, during a White House meeting with President Zardari, Obama remarked that he thought they agreed that Pakistan needed more help. Congress has, meanwhile, questioned whether Pakistan will effectively use the billions in economic and military assistance President Obama has requested.
To aid in the attacks, the dispatch said the Pentagon is speeding spare parts, ammunition and other equipment for Pakistan’s fleet of ageing Cobra attack helicopters. An earlier Pakistani request for more Cobras, to add to its existing fleet of two to three dozen, has been slowed, officials said, by the fact that the helicopters are no longer in production and aircraft must be located and refurbished.
6 more brigades being sent to Swat | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

 

[Arsalan]

some news and specs of the turkish T129

Turkey announced on 30 March 2007 that it had decided to negotiate with AgustaWestland to purchase 51 (+40 optional) A129 helicopters.[3][4][5] Based on the A129 International, they will be assembled in Turkey by TAI as the T129. The deal is reported to be worth $3 Billion. The final contract was signed on September 7, 2007

On 22 June 2008, the agreement between TUSAS Aerospace Industries and AgustaWestland formally entered into force. It has now been confirmed that the T129 will be a 100% Turkish built platform. Under the agreement, TAI will develop an indigenous mission computer, avionics, weapons systems, self-protection suites and the helmet-mounting cuing systems. TUSAS Engine Industries Inc (TEI) will manufacture the LHTEC CTS800-4N engines under licence. Under the agreement, Turkey has full marketing and intellectual property rights for the T129 platform. There are also no restrictions imposed on Turkey for the export or transfer of the platform to third countries (excluding Italy and the United Kingdom).

The T129 has several key improvements over the original A129 in line with the requirements of the Turkish Army:

The T129 will carry 12 Roketsan developed UMTAS anti-tank missiles (Turkish indigenous development similar to Hellfire II);
More powerful LHTEC T800 (CTS800-4) engines have increased the maximum hovering altitude by 20%;
Two launchers for Stinger AA missiles (a total of 4 can be carried) have been added to the exterior sides of the pylons;
Mast radar, similar to that used in the Apache Longbow. The mast radar for TUC-1 will be based on IAI/ELTA's (Israel) surveillance and targeting radar with SAR and ISAR capability. The radar can identify land and sea targets from at least 30 kilometres. The Mast Radar for TUC-2 will be an indigenous development. On 16 July 2007, TÜBİTAK (Turkish State Research Organization), METEKSAN Savunma Sanayii A.Ş and Bilkent University formed a consortium for the development of an advanced millimetre wave radar, similar to the Longbow and the IAI/ELTA radars. It is planned that the radar will enter service in mid-2009.
According to Savunma ve Havacılık (Defence and Aerospace) magazine, the 51 T-129 attack helicopters will be assigned as follows:

One helicopter will be kept by the Turkish Ministry of Defense and will be used as a test-bed for systems development.
The remaining 50 helicopters will be delivered to the Turkish Army. 40 more T-129 helicopters (optional) will be produced if necessary.
The 50 T-129 helicopters will be in two different configurations, TUC-1 and TUC-2 (TUC: Turkish Configuration.)
The first 30 out of 50 will be TUC-1, while the following 20 will be TUC-2.

T-129 TUC-1 (the first 30 units) will have:
Indigenous mission computer
Indigenous EW and countermeasures
Aselsan AselFLIR-300
Foreign helmet-mounted cueing system (either Elbit or Thales)
Foreign missile (either Hellfire II or Spike ER)
T-129 TUC-2 (the following 20 units) will have:
Indigenous mission computer
Indigenous EW and countermeasures
Aselsan AselFLIR-300
Aselsan AVCI helmet-mounted cueing system
Roketsan UMTAS missile
Roketsan Cirit Laser guided 2.75"

though a bit off topic but i was forced to post my opinion for PA future attack helicopter as many members were talking about apache as an option!

anyways fellows, what do you have to say about the helicopter

regards!

 

[Arsalan]

some news and specs of the turkish T129

Turkey announced on 30 March 2007 that it had decided to negotiate with AgustaWestland to purchase 51 (+40 optional) A129 helicopters.[3][4][5] Based on the A129 International, they will be assembled in Turkey by TAI as the T129. The deal is reported to be worth $3 Billion. The final contract was signed on September 7, 2007

On 22 June 2008, the agreement between TUSAS Aerospace Industries and AgustaWestland formally entered into force. It has now been confirmed that the T129 will be a 100% Turkish built platform. Under the agreement, TAI will develop an indigenous mission computer, avionics, weapons systems, self-protection suites and the helmet-mounting cuing systems. TUSAS Engine Industries Inc (TEI) will manufacture the LHTEC CTS800-4N engines under licence. Under the agreement, Turkey has full marketing and intellectual property rights for the T129 platform. There are also no restrictions imposed on Turkey for the export or transfer of the platform to third countries (excluding Italy and the United Kingdom).

The T129 has several key improvements over the original A129 in line with the requirements of the Turkish Army:

The T129 will carry 12 Roketsan developed UMTAS anti-tank missiles (Turkish indigenous development similar to Hellfire II);
More powerful LHTEC T800 (CTS800-4) engines have increased the maximum hovering altitude by 20%;
Two launchers for Stinger AA missiles (a total of 4 can be carried) have been added to the exterior sides of the pylons;
Mast radar, similar to that used in the Apache Longbow. The mast radar for TUC-1 will be based on IAI/ELTA's (Israel) surveillance and targeting radar with SAR and ISAR capability. The radar can identify land and sea targets from at least 30 kilometres. The Mast Radar for TUC-2 will be an indigenous development. On 16 July 2007, TÜBİTAK (Turkish State Research Organization), METEKSAN Savunma Sanayii A.Ş and Bilkent University formed a consortium for the development of an advanced millimetre wave radar, similar to the Longbow and the IAI/ELTA radars. It is planned that the radar will enter service in mid-2009.
According to Savunma ve Havacılık (Defence and Aerospace) magazine, the 51 T-129 attack helicopters will be assigned as follows:

One helicopter will be kept by the Turkish Ministry of Defense and will be used as a test-bed for systems development.
The remaining 50 helicopters will be delivered to the Turkish Army. 40 more T-129 helicopters (optional) will be produced if necessary.
The 50 T-129 helicopters will be in two different configurations, TUC-1 and TUC-2 (TUC: Turkish Configuration.)
The first 30 out of 50 will be TUC-1, while the following 20 will be TUC-2.

T-129 TUC-1 (the first 30 units) will have:
Indigenous mission computer
Indigenous EW and countermeasures
Aselsan AselFLIR-300
Foreign helmet-mounted cueing system (either Elbit or Thales)
Foreign missile (either Hellfire II or Spike ER)
T-129 TUC-2 (the following 20 units) will have:
Indigenous mission computer
Indigenous EW and countermeasures
Aselsan AselFLIR-300
Aselsan AVCI helmet-mounted cueing system
Roketsan UMTAS missile
Roketsan Cirit Laser guided 2.75"

though a bit off topic but i was forced to post my opinion for PA future attack helicopter as many members were talking about apache as an option!

anyways fellows, what do you have to say about the helicopter

regards!

 

[Blackpearl]

well the upgrades of cobras are good for the time being but ultimately we will have to replace them in about 5 yeasr time!

apache is not an option,

for me the turkist T129 a version of french mastung A129 is the best option!
the south african Denel AH-2 Rooivalk is also good!!

we must try not to relay on US! it is lesson from the past!!
the turkish helo is a best option, what do you guys think??

I agree, Augusta 129 is good.
As a matter of fact, if we still rely on USA, it can only give us Re-Furb Cobras, which are old F models. There are no upgrades available for F models. USA has upgraded J models (twin engine version) to W/Z models.