Unwanted Fighter : MIG-35

[MiG-21]

The source says clearly, expected final delivery around 2011 / 2012, but they wasn't inducted yet. Neither IRKUT, nor any Indian source confirmed that so far, especially the earlier always reports that. Not to mention that if there were any serious issues about HALs MKI production, MoD would have ordered Super 30s via Irkut again and didn't added the 40 to HALs productionline.

Deliveries started from 2009! Please Read Carefully.
It is now mid 2012. The deliveries got completed before 2012, lot of time for inducting all 40. That info was given by the Defence minister to the parliament, not made up by some illiterate desi journos. HAL has only delivered between 60-70 fighters till date out of 140. The Super-30s too will most probably be semi and fully knocked down kits provided by Irkut.
If you still don't believe the above link, straight from the CAG's mouth - http://cdasecbad.ap.nic.in/sankalan... Comptroller and Auditor General of India.pdf

I'm surprised fellow Indians know this little about India's Premier fighter.

AESA radars take 3m2 targets as the base, not like older puls doppler radars and the same applies to Zhuk AE, you just need to read to see that
55Kgs for an increase of 68mm compared to Zhuk ME, the one they promised with 200Km has must have a way bigger diameter and therefor way higher weight. As mentioned, it was reported that they had changed the diameter in the prototypes several times because of weight issues.

No no no. I'm not going to tutor you on Range RCS equation. Google it and calculate it yourself. The link I gave specifically mentioned 148km, not 130km! and 52 km extra from that. Take the equation and leave the new RCS as X, and substitute 130km, 148km and 3m2 in the respective places. Finally get the magic number 5, as the new RCS. Repeat the same for 160km.

The 275kgs 200km radar which they are talking about is infact this very same radar.

Because more M2Ks were too costly and we had no other options, today we have money and are inducting 4 different types of fighters. Simply logic + offical statements from MoD and IAF about its, that's why speculating about additional fighter types doesn't really makes sense.

Money is a limited resource, especially for a developing country like India.

If you still won't believe that HAL won't screw up inspite of all the links I gave before, will you believe CAG's?

140 Su-30MKI jets to be manufactured by HAL at a total cost of $4,809 million(Rs 22,122.78 crore). So the average cost of the HAL manufactured fighter is $34.35 million. But that's not the whole story. Rs 22,122.78 crore for 140 aircraft in 2000 had to be revised to Rs 39,224.09 crore in July 2005. The cost is now estimated to be more than Rs 45,000 crore. For exchange rate of 46 Rupees for every U.S dollar that translates to $4809 million, $8527 million & $9783 million respectively. So price of each HAL manufactured Su-30MKI has increased from $34.35 million in 2000, to $61 million in 2005, to finally $70 million currently, according to CAG's(Comptroller and Auditor General of India) estimation. Also now the exchange rate is over 50Rs. Do the math.

The Telegraph - Calcutta : Nation

You do know that we will have Su 30s soon right? They will have the same composite/RAM changes as the Migs and don't need external fuel tanks unlike the Mig, which translates to a similar RCS as Migs with external payloads.

Lets see how far they can reduce it. Besides didn't it cost near 3 digit million dollar figures?
MiG-29K's RCS is now between 1-1.5m2, if regular MiG-29 RCS is taken to be 5m2. It is fair to expect MiG-35 with more composites may/will be lower than that.

 

[GR!FF!N]

Lets see how far they can reduce it. Besides didn't it cost near 3 digit million dollar figures?
MiG-29K's RCS is now between 1-1.5m2, if regular MiG-29 RCS is taken to be 5m2. It is fair to expect MiG-35 with more composites may/will be lower than that.

are you sure about that???its almost the range of rafale,Su-35 and eurofighter's rcs range..i doubt Mig-29 is so stealthy.

 

[MiG-21]

are you sure about that???its almost the range of rafale,Su-35 and eurofighter's rcs range..i doubt Mig-29 is so stealthy.

Here you go-
"Due to special coatings Mig-29K radar reflecting surface is 4-5 times smaller than of basic MiG-29."
RAC MiG Official site

RCS of a Basic MiG-29 is said to be 5m2. 4-5 times reduction means RCS becomes somewhere between 1m2 - 1.25m2

 

[MilSpec]

Back then precision strike, today BVR and deep strike!

Durng Kargil, PAF was in clear disadvantage not only to Mig 29, but also to Mig 21s and Su 30Ks that we had, because all these Russian fighters were BVR capable, but PAFs fighters weren't. However, that didn't changed the war, because the Mig 27s with dumb bombs, that were escorted by Mig 29s, failed to strike the targets propperly and were even shot down. Su 30 and Mig 29 wasn't able to do precision strikes either, but then the LGBs were integrated to Mirage and Jags and just a few hits won the war!

Similarly, IAF has no cruise missile strike capability today, MKI will changed that with Brahmos, but it has several limitations (numbers, weight, size, RCS), that's why the procurement of Scalp or other stand off weapons for Mirage 2000 and Rafale would give IAF an deep strike alternative to MKI and Brahmos => a tactical advantage!
In air combats Rafale (or EF) offers not only a tactical advantage, but a tactical edge! With features like a low signatures, Supercruise, high tech missile combos and long range passive detection, they offer capabilities which are not available in south or even east Asia today. They are simply more modern and comes with latest capabilities and are not only a slightly upgraded cold war fighter like the Mig.



Not at all, because PAF getting high numbers of a twin engine fighter that is expensive to operate, that has an old design and very few modern features, that comes with avionics, weapons and techs that IAF knows for decades, that makes them dependent on one of our allies which can pose restrictions..., would be a great advantage for us and not a disadvantage!

But that's not going to happen and now they have a chance to get J10B, a cost-effective fighter (which makes higher numbers more realistic than with Mig 35), with modern design, materials, avionics and a lower RCS. From their own ally, that would allow to customize it with foreign weapons or techs and of course indigenous once (Raad cruise missile) to make it even better.

Now tell me, which fighter would be the bigger threat for India? The J10 of course, because PAF would have the same reasons to reject the Mig 35 as IAF had to reject the F16IN.

About kargil, Mig 29 air superiority fighters kept enemy crafts at bay, they were exceptional at their jobs, there is nothing to dispute that.

Next mig 29's are configured to, Kh31 and Kh 35M already in the inventory, and by the way Mig 35 with its same Mil bus can also be configured to fire the taurus/Kepd or storm shadow/scalp.

I am in no way saying Rafale is a mistake of any sort, all I am saying is there is still room for another 100, mig 35 OVT's in Indian Air Force, as I have a feeling that a major chunk of mig 29 are going to fly off to ayni air base pretty soon.

And by the way I still think Mig 35, a mach 2.35 platform with upgraded rd33, 1.146 twc, 3D TVc Aesa Radar and OLS 31 rvv MD and RVV SD, if developed in the right way are way better than j10.

Reasons for rejecting mig 35's are pretty different than the one presented in the media.

 

[GR!FF!N]

Here you go-
"Due to special coatings Mig-29K radar reflecting surface is 4-5 times smaller than of basic MiG-29."
RAC MiG Official site

RCS of a Basic MiG-29 is said to be 5m2. 4-5 times reduction means RCS becomes somewhere between 1m2 - 1.25m2

my bad...EF and Rafale's rcs is nearly .1 m2..but can you confirn that is that overall reduction of rcs or just frontal rcs??and i never heard that indian mig-29k is using ram coating..

 

[MiG-21]

It says right there in the official website they they do use such coatings... probably in key areas like engine inlets etc.
Whenever someone says RCS, they normally mean frontal RCS with X band radar. I have never heard of Side RCS or Top RCS or overall RCS figures.

 

[Nishan_101]

I think that 80% of INDIANs are looking towards west and EGypt is looking towards MiG-35s. I wish they will also look towards JF-17 Block-IIs.

 

[MilSpec]

I think that 80% of INDIANs are looking towards west and EGypt is looking towards MiG-35s. I wish they will also look towards JF-17 Block-IIs.

Buying a western aircraft is nothing new for IAF, vampire, tempest, ouragan, hunter, gnat, Jaguar, mirage 2000's have been there in the past.
Rafale is no different. Also not to forget another 100 Su 30 MKI, 55 Mig 29K's and 250 PAKFA's and probably more if AMCA delay's; All are going to Russia.

 

[sancho]

Wrt HALs production line, this should explain the confusions:

99 out of 180 Sukhoi-30 MKI aircraft delivered till 2010-11

Minister of State for Defence MM Pallam Raju said that out of the total 180 Sukhoi-30 MKI aircraft, 99 aircraft have been delivered till 2010-11...

...As per the CCS sanction dated 18/12/2000, the project was to commence from the year 2004-05 and be completed by 2017-18. However, in June 2005, Air Headquarters requested HAL, to explore the feasibility of compressing the delivery programme by three years. Accordingly, HAL submitted a Proposal which envisaged compressed delivery of 140 aircraft within 2014-15. CCS accorded its approval for the compressed delivery programme on 31/03/2006. As per the revised sanction, the Production capacity envisaged Was 16 aircraft per Year.

Subsequent to CCS Sanctions, contracts were concluded with IAF for supply of 140 Su-30 MKI aircraft by 2014-15. Further contract for supply of additional 40 SU-30 MKI aircraft was concluded with IAF for completion within 2014-15, along with earlier order of 140 aircraft.

MACHINIST - 99 out of 180 Sukhoi-30 MKI aircraft delivered till 2010-11


1) HAL has delivered 100 x fighters so far
2) HAL has agreed to a delivery of 140 fighters until 2015 and they are on track with it
3) The 40 additionals were not delivered by Irkut as the 50 older once, but added to HALs productionline, which obviously stretches the delivery

So HAL didn't messed up the production of their "contracted MKIs", but won't be able to deliver the additional 40 + 42 (2 from Russia) with the current rate until 2017!
The government press release you posted earlier confirms this, because it stated that 3 fighters were deliverd, while Irkut normally delivers more fighters at once, like they did with the first 50.

No no no. I'm not going to tutor you on Range RCS equation.

You don't have to, because we have clear proves and don't neet to speculate here. The Zhuk AE specboards from the manufacturer is based on target of 3m2, while earlier Zhuk ME was on 5m2. So if the manufacturer promises to provide a Zhuk AE with 200Km range, it still will be based on 3m2!

The 275kgs 200km radar which they are talking about is infact this very same radar.

Don't speculate, check the specboards of last Aero India.

MiG-29K's RCS is now between 1-1.5m2, if regular MiG-29 RCS is taken to be 5m2. It is fair to expect MiG-35 with more composites may/will be lower than that.

No, that's just another speculation from you, but the fact is (as I already showed) that it is based on the same airframe and material changes as the 29K and M/M2.

I don't speculate on RCS numbers, but you can think about it very logically to understand the differences:

Mig 29K/35 = 4 to 5 times lower RCS than older Mig 29s by using RAM coatings and composite materials
Super 30 / Su 35 = 4 to 5 times lower RCS than older Su 27 by using RAM coatings and composite materials

=> Mig 29K/35 has a lower RCS in clean config


Mig 29K/35 + external fuel tanks = comparable range as Super 30 / Su 35 with internal fuel

=> Mig 29K/35 with external fuel tanks has a higher RCS than Super 30 / Su 35 in comparable roles

About kargil, Mig 29 air superiority fighters kept enemy crafts at bay, they were exceptional at their jobs, there is nothing to dispute that.

Did I said something else? They did well at what they were able to do, but that was not enough to changed the war!

I am in no way saying Rafale is a mistake of any sort, all I am saying is there is still room for another 100, mig 35 OVT's in Indian Air Force

If they would give IAF any additional operational advantage yes, but they are less capable in A2A and A2G than Rafale and MKIs / Super 30s, while way more costly to procure and operate than LCA as a low end fighter. Not to forget that compared to these fighters, it has the least future potential and would be the worst choice to operate for up to 40 years. It was a good fighter for IAF in the past, but not today anymore and that's why IAF didn't wanted it.

Reasons for rejecting mig 35's are pretty different than the one presented in the media.

What do you think were the reasons? We know that operational costs had more importance than procurement costs, we also know that precision and deep strike had much importance. All this was stated from former Air Chiefs and the Mig falls short in these fields:

- the operational costs belongs to the highest
- it offers limited range and weapon configs for deepstrikes
- not a single heavy or stand off weapon (KAB 1500, Kh 59, Brahmos) is available
- the RCS was one of the biggest in the competition
- the performance with heavy loads and dry thrust was one of the weakest too (reportedly IAF wasn't impressed of the engine)

The Mig has upgraded A2G capabilities, but mainly for short to medium ranges and mainly for CAS, SEAD or Maritime attack. Deep or heavy strike capabilities like the MKI, or Rafale offers are not available or very poor, which is obvious, since it was designed and developed for air superiority, with some added multi role capablities only.

As said, other then commonality to older Mig 29s, they offered nothing useful for IAF, which doesn't make the rejection surprising.

 

[MiG-21]

1) HAL has delivered 100 x fighters so far
2) HAL has agreed to a delivery of 140 fighters until 2015 and they are on track with it
3) The 40 additionals were not delivered by Irkut as the 50 older once, but added to HALs productionline, which obviously stretches the delivery

So HAL didn't messed up the production of their "contracted MKIs", but won't be able to deliver the additional 40 + 42 (2 from Russia) with the current rate until 2017!
The government press release you posted earlier confirms this, because it stated that 3 fighters were deliverd, while Irkut normally delivers more fighters at once, like they did with the first 50.

Are you trolling or you seriously can't comprehend basic english properly? I even gave you a link, and you still come back with the same garbage that HAL manufactures these jets. from the CAG link-

Government
The contract envisaged delivery of the 40 aircraft `M' in three phases. The activitie
assigned to HAL in each phase were as under:

SI. No. PHASE NUMBER OF
AIRCRAFT
PARTICULARS
1. Phase 1+ 20 Technical Kit already
flight-tested in
Russia would be
assembled by a
Russian team (at
HAL), flight tested
by a Russian pilot
and handed over to
HAL.
2. Phase 1 16 Technical kit would
be supplied to HAL,
assembled by HAL
and painted would be
carried out by HAL.
3. Phase 2 04 Aircraft assembly,
system checks,
fitment of engines,
aircraft alignment,
ground and flight
checks and painting
would be carried out
by HAL.
As can be seen, excepting for four, HAL would not have a major role to play in th
manufacture of these aircraft. Further, HAL had already obtained the benefit of ToT i
terms of the Licensed Production of 140 aircraft `M' and was operating under maximum
capacity utilisation. Thus, it would appear that involvement of HAL was only to obtain `Bu
(Indian)' classification for the project. Had these aircraft been procured directly from the OEM
over-head charges and profit to the extent of Rs 60.48 crore payable under the schedule o
payment with HAL could have been avoided.

Fact is even in the 4 aircraft HAL only undertook major assembly as clearly given. They certainly didn't manufacture any key components.

According to your link dated November 2011, 99 Aircraft have been delivered so far out of 140 + 40. Out of which 40 are from Russia. So the remaining 59 is from HAL total of 140. Not a very good number. Submitting proposal and saying I can do it is different from actually achieving the targets. Till date HAL has only manufactured 60-70 jets out of 140.

And add the links I gave regarding cost overruns, failed indiginisation. This is a quagmire.

You don't have to, because we have clear proves and don't neet to speculate here. The Zhuk AE specboards from the manufacturer is based on target of 3m2, while earlier Zhuk ME was on 5m2. So if the manufacturer promises to provide a Zhuk AE with 200Km range, it still will be based on 3m2!

What is wrong with you? You can't even recognize numbers apart from basic english? 130km and 148km look the same to you?

"We have met this requirement of the Indian tender and built the Zhuk-AE active phased array radar with a proven range of 148 kilometers," said Vyacheslav Tishchenko, the company's general director.
Vyacheslav Tishchenko, the company's general director, says the detection range of the radar could be increased from 148 km to 200 km. "
Russia claims 200 km range for MiG-35's Phazotron Zhuk AE
Where in the brochure does it say 148km? Just because you don't know the basics of a Range RCS equation don't type bullshit.

No, that's just another speculation from you, but the fact is (as I already showed) that it is based on the same airframe and material changes as the 29K and M/M2.

Where did you show it? It clearly says MiG-35 is based MiG-29M/M2/K. It didn't say the structure is 100% the same. It didn't even give any % or numbers to validate your speculation. If the structure is 100% the same the basic G tolerance will also be the same, but we have 8Gs for 29K, 9Gs for 29M/M2 and 10Gs for 35. 10Gs clearly indication extensive use of composites which has a high G tolerance and lighter compared to Aluminium.

I don't speculate on RCS numbers, but you can think about it very logically to understand the differences:

Mig 29K/35 = 4 to 5 times lower RCS than older Mig 29s by using RAM coatings and composite materials
Super 30 / Su 35 = 4 to 5 times lower RCS than older Su 27 by using RAM coatings and composite materials

=> Mig 29K/35 has a lower RCS in clean config


Mig 29K/35 + external fuel tanks = comparable range as Super 30 / Su 35 with internal fuel

=> Mig 29K/35 with external fuel tanks has a higher RCS than Super 30 / Su 35 in comparable roles

First of all IAF is looking for a Medium category aircraft, not a heavy. If MiG-35 has to be employed it will be employed as a MMRCA. Just the 29M has a max ferry range of 2000km with internal fuel . A 11 tonne Mig-35 will have more range. And not to mention the near 100 million dollar price tag for those Super Su-30s, which is the reason why MiG-35 comes into the picture in the first place priced around $50 million.

 

[nomi007]

I believe PAF should think about MiG35...Far better then China fighters.

after loosing mmrca many russia suggested govt of russia to offer this jet to pakistan
but unfortunately we donot need this aircraft
reason: paf is reducing their jets type
future arsenal of paf will be
f-16s
fc-20(j-10)
fc-1 block-2 and 3

Unwanted? Uhh , The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia can buy those planes ...

They have the cash ..

USA will not allow them to purchase this
iranian is the only option for mig-35

 

[Devianz]

my bad...EF and Rafale's rcs is nearly .1 m2..but can you confirn that is that overall reduction of rcs or just frontal rcs??and i never heard that indian mig-29k is using ram coating..

Not just RAM coatings, they also use saw tooth and it seems like some sort of canopy coating too in this pic. You can also see the saw-tooth near radome.

 

[Zabaniyah]

BD is going for Mig-29..right???which version??and why they are not going for Mig-35 which has almost same cost???

According to Wikipedia (can't say if reliable), BD is going for MiG-29M2. The MiG-35 is still under development if I'm not mistaken.

Although, I personally prefer Western fighters.

 

[MilSpec]

Did I said something else? They did well at what they were able to do, but that was not enough to changed the war!

Again Mig 29 is an pure air superiority fighter, please dont expect it do other roles "which will change the war"

If they would give IAF any additional operational advantage yes, but they are less capable in A2A and A2G than Rafale and MKIs / Super 30s, while way more costly to procure and operate than LCA as a low end fighter. Not to forget that compared to these fighters, it has the least future potential and would be the worst choice to operate for up to 40 years. It was a good fighter for IAF in the past, but not today anymore and that's why IAF didn't wanted it.

Less capable than A2a than rafale, with ability to use every armament that rafale, can use with its mil bus, including the r77-SD which outranges pretty much everything in the market

What do you think were the reasons? We know that operational costs had more importance than procurement costs, we also know that precision and deep strike had much importance. All this was stated from former Air Chiefs and the Mig falls short in these fields:

- the operational costs belongs to the highest
- it offers limited range and weapon configs for deepstrikes
- not a single heavy or stand off weapon (KAB 1500, Kh 59, Brahmos) is available
- the RCS was one of the biggest in the competition
- the performance with heavy loads and dry thrust was one of the weakest too (reportedly IAF wasn't impressed of the engine)

reasons for procuring a 80+mil european fighters compared to 35+ mil Mig 35, along with the advantages that rafale would have brought could be negated with twice the number of mig 35 in the same price. Apart from that IAF wanted to teach the russians a lesson that they need to learn to be more professional when it comes to customer satisfaction and supply chain management.

Operational costs: Please don't go by the media bull crap on mig 29, show me one detailed report to support operational cost concerns. Ask anyone from 11 BRD, they will exactly tell you how excellent mig 29's operational cost is.

What exactly is deep strike configuration, the mil bus can support even the sea eagle (like the TU145) or the MBDA apache or Scalp or taurus,

as far as KB1500T/L you are referring are mig 27 armament and can be configured on mig 35 center pylon, next mig35 supports KB 500T/L basically 500 KG LGB/TGB compared to half the weight category GBU 12 paveway or AASM which weighs around 250 KG's. So mig 35 supports the precision guided munitions twice the weight catagory of rafale.

The Mig has upgraded A2G capabilities, but mainly for short to medium ranges and mainly for CAS, SEAD or Maritime attack. Deep or heavy strike capabilities like the MKI, or Rafale offers are not available or very poor, which is obvious, since it was designed and developed for air superiority, with some added multi role capablities only.

In the beginning of my defense of mig 35 i clearly stated that mig 35 is an out and out mig 35 air superiority fighter masquerading as a "multi role aircraft". It would perfectly compliment Su 30 MKI strike aircrafts as the escorts needed for strike missions.

India could have custom made the mig 35 exactly like the SU 30 MKI with french and Israeli avionics.
Lets understand the nature of IAF's armament, Russian stock pile of KH 29, KH 31,KH 59, Kh 35, R77-AE, R77-SD, R-77 -AE, R-27ER (AA-10C) R-27ET (AA-10D), R60 (AA 8 Aphid), R-27R (AA-10A) R-27T (AA-10B) R-73 (AA-11) KS-172 AAM-L, KB 500 T/L, RBK 500, (Speculated R33 37)
Non-Russian- MBDA mica, matra magic II, Matra super 530D, Aim 39 Exocet, AS 30 , AS 37 martel, Sea Hawk, R 550, Derby, Astra II BVR.

All of the above can be used by Mig 35.

As said, other then commonality to older Mig 29s, they offered nothing useful for IAF, which doesn't make the rejection surprising.

They offered custom MKI version of mig 35, they proposed the same pathway as of SU 30 MKi and FGFA, the only blunder was this should have been offered maybe 8 years ago when they were looking at mirage 2000 and the gripen as mrca. Nevertheless with delays in LCA mk2, and dropping numbers of IAF sqdn strength , 100 mig 35 can be an excellent shot in the arm.

 

[sancho]

According to your link dated November 2011, 99 Aircraft have been delivered so far out of 140 + 40. Out of which 40 are from Russia.

Wrong, the parts for the 40 were produced in Russia and added to HALs production line! That doubles the available parts for HALs, since they get them from Russian and Indian suppliers at the same time, but the problem seems to be, that they wasn't able to increase the production rate further to produce more than the 140 fighters till 2015, as they planned in 2006.

So as confirmed now, HAL has produced more than 100 fighters so far, but won't meet the timeline for all 180 till 2015, because they have to produce more than initially contracted now.

What is wrong with you? You can't even recognize numbers apart from basic english? 130km and 148km look the same to you?

First of all IAF is looking for a Medium category aircraft, not a heavy. If MiG-35 has to be employed it will be employed as a MMRCA.

LOL are you distracting because you were proven wrong at Zhuk AE s weight, the 3m2 target and the fact that the Mig don't have RCS advantages contrary to what you believed? And since you were since you were too lazy to look up the real specs, here is the specboard from Aero India 2011 (zoom in):

https://picasaweb.google.com/110614958773855914651/AeroIndia2011#5571669691433921218

Zhuk AE – 688mm diameter – 275Kg weight – 160Km range – for a 3m2 target

Which means, Zhuk AE with 200Km range for a 3m2 target => more than 700mm diameter => more than 300Kg => 100+Kg more compared to Mig 29K with Zhuk ME and that were the actual reason for the discussion. More weight for the Mig 35, which leaves it with a similar emptyweight as Mig 29K.