Ukraine says Malaysian airliner shot down, 295 dead: agency

[F-22Raptor]

High-tech spycraft tracked missile's path to Malaysia Airlines jet - LA Times

Article on the advanced US satellites used to identify and track the missile launch.

 

[Jayhawk]

This is just so wrong. My prayers and thoughts with the victims family.

 

[vK_man]

First traces of the warhead. This was not BUK-M1

Source: http://guruinterneta.livejournal.com/32590.html

Pin warhead! Missiles used to hit air targets use a special warhead, which is only characterisitc for them with very specific traces. It consists of a bundle of sharpened pins, which are sometimes welded together (sometimes not). An opening charge is installed behind this bundle, this is basically what the “pin and shrapnel” warhead consists of. When it approaches the target at the minimal distance the warhead explodes the opening charge and this bundle of pins flies to the target at almost cosmic speed. When hitting the target such pin – only by its kinetic energy – is capable to shoot through the plane destroying the internal structure of the aircraft and completely crashing the on-board equipment. The pin kinetics is so powerful that it can even split the titanium spar in halves. Such warhead has one big advantage – the missile does not need to be perfectly accurate – it explodes before contacting the target and the pins are shot in the direction of the airplane n a cone. Even if only 2-3% of these pins hit the target, the plane is doomed – a hole in the wing or fuselage, or simply damaged cladding of the plane flying at trans-sonic speed the enormous relative airflow will destroy the damaged wing up to the very spar in less than a minute. If there is a dozen of such holes – there is simply no chance for anything.

But this is not the main point. Pin and shrapnel warheads are mainly used on air-to-air missiles because of their compact size. The anti-aircraft defense systems prefer to use high explosive and shrapnel warheads, because in a number of cases they are more efficient than pin and shrapnel ones. The picture we have here shows cladding damage characteristic for pin and shrapnel warheads. High explosive and shrapnel warhead damage looks different. This means that no BUK system hit this aircraft. Here we are dealing with either R-27 Topor or R-73 missiles, which Ukrainians have plenty of and which are installed on MIG-29 and SU-27

@senheiser @Lux de Veritas

 

[vostok]

Doesn't need a radar in the sites, Russian can give/support via data link to the Buk-M system, otherwise the rebels can't claim to have shoot down Ukrainian gov. AN-25 and Frogfoot previously.

Militias have working complex Strela-10, which they use along with MANPADS. But no working radar for "Buk" .
You must understand the difference between junta, which burned alive dozens of people in Odessa and then boastfully showed these pictures to the whole world and militias - people with the chivalric ideals that simply protect their land from Kiev Nazi occupiers. This provocation of fascists, their handwriting.

 

[vostok]

CNN etc are out in full force pushing the Russia/"Russian" rebels did it line... nato/west propaganda machine is full steam ahead

look at this propagandist joker, Richard Quest.. wasn't he caught high on meth with a rope tied around his genitals and drugs on his person not very long ago New York, was it .. ?

there's a huge propaganda operation underway by the west at this time, I take it all with a fistful of salt and a shot of tequila but what's the counter for Strelkov's tweets right after news of the crash broke ? they're all over it like flies on shit

@vostok .. any inputs on the Strelkov tweet controversy ?

As always, the West uses provocation. I think it's all been done to justify the "help" to junta with weapons to fight "terrorists", or even to enter troops.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Right now I have yet another hypothesis on why the plane was downed. Before, I suspected Ukraine because I think they are more gangster. I suspect less of the rebel because militias generally do not have the SAM capabilities to hit commercial jet. Only regulars of sovereigns are capable of pulling that off.

Now I wonder if there is a scenario whereby Russia deploy some of their regular SAM units in Ukraine. These units may not have enough capabilities to fully identify incoming aircraft. Under combat condition whereby Ukraine deploy her air superiority against the militias, the militias may get fatigue. Then MAS flew by combat zone, and it was mistaken as military aircraft.

Russia and USA will KNOW who did it by now. USA, especially has the Space-Based Infrared System (SBIRS), on their satellite. The infrared footprint of a SAM that is capable of striking an airliner is not small and readily detectable.

Space-Based Infrared System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is just my 2nd hypothesis.

Just watched the news (TV4, Nyhetsmorgon 08:00), and they cite Reuters claiming that US intelligence sources now have proof that the plane was shot down by a missile, and the missile came from territory held by separatists.

The proof comes from a spy satellite normally used to detect ICBMs with IR detectors.
Separatists are also limiting access for international investigators, including warning shots.

First traces of the warhead. This was not BUK-M1

Source: http://guruinterneta.livejournal.com/32590.html

Pin warhead! Missiles used to hit air targets use a special warhead, which is only characterisitc for them with very specific traces. It consists of a bundle of sharpened pins, which are sometimes welded together (sometimes not). An opening charge is installed behind this bundle, this is basically what the “pin and shrapnel” warhead consists of. When it approaches the target at the minimal distance the warhead explodes the opening charge and this bundle of pins flies to the target at almost cosmic speed. When hitting the target such pin – only by its kinetic energy – is capable to shoot through the plane destroying the internal structure of the aircraft and completely crashing the on-board equipment. The pin kinetics is so powerful that it can even split the titanium spar in halves. Such warhead has one big advantage – the missile does not need to be perfectly accurate – it explodes before contacting the target and the pins are shot in the direction of the airplane n a cone. Even if only 2-3% of these pins hit the target, the plane is doomed – a hole in the wing or fuselage, or simply damaged cladding of the plane flying at trans-sonic speed the enormous relative airflow will destroy the damaged wing up to the very spar in less than a minute. If there is a dozen of such holes – there is simply no chance for anything.

But this is not the main point. Pin and shrapnel warheads are mainly used on air-to-air missiles because of their compact size. The anti-aircraft defense systems prefer to use high explosive and shrapnel warheads, because in a number of cases they are more efficient than pin and shrapnel ones. The picture we have here shows cladding damage characteristic for pin and shrapnel warheads. High explosive and shrapnel warhead damage looks different. This means that no BUK system hit this aircraft. Here we are dealing with either R-27 Topor or R-73 missiles, which Ukrainians have plenty of and which are installed on MIG-29 and SU-27

@senheiser @Lux de Veritas

And already now, we know that you are wrong.

 

[Pakistanisage]

RIP for the unfortunate Passengers. Shame on the attackers for this inhumane act.

 

[Hack-Hook]

Sort of like IranAir ?

well Iran Air was not a war zone , it was just an American trigger happy cowboy who entered Iranian water were there would have been no skirmish , nd by the way still can't understand how a USA navy personnel would ever think that an F-14A was on a mission to attack their ships.

The Ukraine is unlikely, because prior being shot over rebel controlled area it flew hundreds of miles over the Ukraine.

It was more useful for them for it to fall in a place that can be blamed on separatist , and as a matter of fact it get shot down in a place you could not ruleout Ukraine. now tell me what was to point of attacking the plane over Kiev ?

 

[vK_man]

Just watched the news (TV4, Nyhetsmorgon 08:00), and they cite Reuters claiming that US intelligence sources now have proof that the plane was shot down by a missile, and the missile came from territory held by separatists.

The proof comes from a spy satellite normally used to detect ICBMs with IR detectors.
Separatists are also limiting access for international investigators, including warning shots.


And already now, we know that you are wrong.

reuters? corporate propaganda. we know who is behind the junta and its lies.

 

[Hack-Hook]

Just watched the news (TV4, Nyhetsmorgon 08:00), and they cite Reuters claiming that US intelligence sources now have proof that the plane was shot down by a missile, and the missile came from territory held by separatists.

The proof comes from a spy satellite normally used to detect ICBMs with IR detectors.
Separatists are also limiting access for international investigators, including warning shots.

In news it was the plane crashed with a missile but they said they don't knew where the missile come from.

First traces of the warhead. This was not BUK-M1

Source: http://guruinterneta.livejournal.com/32590.html

Pin warhead! Missiles used to hit air targets use a special warhead, which is only characterisitc for them with very specific traces. It consists of a bundle of sharpened pins, which are sometimes welded together (sometimes not). An opening charge is installed behind this bundle, this is basically what the “pin and shrapnel” warhead consists of. When it approaches the target at the minimal distance the warhead explodes the opening charge and this bundle of pins flies to the target at almost cosmic speed. When hitting the target such pin – only by its kinetic energy – is capable to shoot through the plane destroying the internal structure of the aircraft and completely crashing the on-board equipment. The pin kinetics is so powerful that it can even split the titanium spar in halves. Such warhead has one big advantage – the missile does not need to be perfectly accurate – it explodes before contacting the target and the pins are shot in the direction of the airplane n a cone. Even if only 2-3% of these pins hit the target, the plane is doomed – a hole in the wing or fuselage, or simply damaged cladding of the plane flying at trans-sonic speed the enormous relative airflow will destroy the damaged wing up to the very spar in less than a minute. If there is a dozen of such holes – there is simply no chance for anything.

But this is not the main point. Pin and shrapnel warheads are mainly used on air-to-air missiles because of their compact size. The anti-aircraft defense systems prefer to use high explosive and shrapnel warheads, because in a number of cases they are more efficient than pin and shrapnel ones. The picture we have here shows cladding damage characteristic for pin and shrapnel warheads. High explosive and shrapnel warhead damage looks different. This means that no BUK system hit this aircraft. Here we are dealing with either R-27 Topor or R-73 missiles, which Ukrainians have plenty of and which are installed on MIG-29 and SU-27

@senheiser @Lux de Veritas

Very Interesting . at least it's something that can be checked individually . not just some speculation and baseless accusation .

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

In news it was the plane crashed with a missile but they said they don't knew where the missile come from.

That was Yesterday, same report in Sweden.
Today they say they can tell where it came from - an area controlled by pro-Russian separatists.
Will try to find the original Reuters bulletin, messages passing through several mouths can get twarted.

 

[ptldM3]

Just watched the news (TV4, Nyhetsmorgon 08:00), and they cite Reuters claiming that US intelligence sources now have proof that the plane was shot down by a missile, and the missile came from territory held by separatists.

The proof comes from a spy satellite normally used to detect ICBMs with IR detectors.
Separatists are also limiting access for international investigators, including warning shots.


And already now, we know that you are wrong.

The US would have to physically provide proof of the launch location, word of mouth means nothing. Furthermore, this would have to be cross examined with other satellites from other countries. Moreover, the battlefield is always changing and the Ukrainians military and rebels are fighting up close and personal.

It should also be noted that Ukraine shot down a Russian airliner and denied it, so we know they are incompetent and they lie, we also have pictures of the Ukrainian military with Buk in the same area where the airliner was shot down.




The US has an agenda in Ukraine, of course they will claim it was fired from separatist territory, but that does not make it true. The US has been caught time after time lying about what is going on in Ukraine. Russia has been taking the blame in Ukraine for everything; likewise, everything that is coming from Russia is a lie, everything that is coming from Ukraine is true. All of the atrocities committed by the Ukrainian military and Ukrainian nationalists is simply ignored in the west.


When journalists confront the State Department about Ukrainian military targeting civilians the State Department goes into denial and even shamelessly praises Ukraine for "restraint" despite Ukraine using heavy artillery in civilian areas which resulted in hundreds of deaths, and a pattern of purposeful targeting of civilians. When confronted with a UN report about 110,000 Ukrainian refuges fleeing into Russia the State department claimed "we can't confirm that" basically denying facts. When confronted about Russian minorities being targeted the State Department goes into denial despite overwhelming video evidence not to mention there has been no condemnation for Ukrainian politicians and high ranking military generals calling for the extermination of Russians, calling for deporting east Ukrainians and putting them in concentration camps, threatening to murder civilians for every Ukrainians soldier killed, calling Russians derogatory names such as Moskol. Let me remind everyone this is coming from the Ukraine's most powerful leaders.

The pattern is obvious in Ukraine, if tomorrow Ukrainian soldiers execute 1000 innocent people and have it on camera it would not make news in the west, the west would simply ignore it like they did Odessa, Slavyansk, ect.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

The US would have to physically provide proof of the launch location, word of mouth means nothing. Furthermore, this would have to be cross examined with other satellites from other countries. Moreover, the battlefield is always changing and the Ukrainians military and rebels are fighting up close and personal.

It should also be noted that Ukraine shot down a Russian airliner and denied it, so we know they are incompetent and they lie, we also have pictures of the Ukrainian military with Buk in the same area where the airliner was shot down.




The US has an agenda in Ukraine, of course they will claim it was fired from separatist territory, but that does not make it true. The US has been caught time after time lying about what is going on in Ukraine. Russia has been taking the blame in Ukraine for everything; likewise, everything that is coming from Russia is a lie, everything that is coming from Ukraine is true. All of the atrocities committed by the Ukrainian military and Ukrainian nationalists is simply ignored in the west.


When journalists confront the State Department about Ukrainian military targeting civilians the State Department goes into denial and even shamelessly praises Ukraine for "restraint" despite Ukraine using heavy artillery in civilian areas which resulted in hundreds of deaths, and a pattern of purposeful targeting of civilians. When confronted with a UN report about 110,000 Ukrainian refuges fleeing into Russia the State department claimed "we can't confirm that" basically denying facts. When confronted about Russian minorities being targeted the State Department goes into denial despite overwhelming video evidence not to mention there has been no condemnation for Ukrainian politicians and high ranking military generals calling for the extermination of Russians, calling for deporting east Ukrainians and putting them in concentration camps, threatening to murder civilians for every Ukrainians soldier killed, calling Russians derogatory names such as Moskol. Let me remind everyone this is coming from the Ukraine's most powerful leaders.

The pattern is obvious in Ukraine, if tomorrow Ukrainian soldiers execute 1000 innocent people and have it on camera it would not make news in the west, the west would simply ignore it like they did Odessa, Slavyansk, ect.

So by Your logic, if the Ukrainans shot down MH17, it would have been ignored by Western Media.
Since it is all over the news, this is proof, they did not do it!

(Failed Logic, but could not resist)

I do agree that accusations have to be backed up by documentation.

BTW: What has been ignored? Odessa fire reported over several days,
and use of heavy arms in Slavyansk also reported.

 

[ptldM3]

One thing is absolutely certain from a purely military strategic standpoint. Russia has no idea when it come to cold hard forward thinking military strategic thinking. They hasnt displayed any forward thinking military intelligence in the last 100 years. Somebody please point to specific example and prove me wrong please. Anybody? Any Example?

This is just ging to push ex soviet states towards Europe and possibly NATO membership

Russia is going to take a big bite of a dog turd sandwich here. The average Russian citizen is going to feel it via heavy sanctions unfortunately.

You are dismissed, some of the greatest defensive and offensive military strategies have come from the Soviet Union. Some of the largest military operations in history such as Kursk required required massive planning, concealment, reconnaissance, ect, The biggest strategy came in planing assaults, defenses, deciding how much reserves to use and when, deciding when to fall back, what devisions to use, ect, ect.

Like i said you are dismissed.

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

Russia helping rebels to destroy evidence at MH17 crash site: Ukraine

Kiev: Ukraine on Saturday accused Russia of helping separatist insurgents they say shot down Malaysian airliner MH17 try to destroy evidence at the crash site

"The Ukrainian government officially announces: terrorists with the support of Russia are trying to destroy proof of this international crime," Ukraine's government said in a statement.

It adding that rebels had removed 38 bodies from the scene and were blocking Ukrainian investigators from accessing the site.

Rebels trying to destroy crash evidence `with Russian support`: Kiev